Tokyo not even ranked as "courteous city"

[kamome]

Reader's Digest just published its list of the 35 most courteous cities in the world. Their methodology seems less than scientific, but contrary to popular myth, New York (where I live) was ranked the most courteous city.

And Tokyo didn't even make the list. Does this jive with your own experience?


World of Courtesy: Ranking of 35 Cities
Below is a ranking of the most courteous to the least courteous -- 35 major cities included in RD's Global Courtesy Test. Figures reflect the percentage of people who passed in each city. When multiple cities had identical scores, they are listed in alphabetical order.

New York USA 80%
Zurich Switzerland 77
Toronto Canada 70
Berlin Germany 68
São Paulo Brazil 68
Zagreb Croatia 68
Auckland New Zealand 67
Warsaw Poland 67
Mexico City Mexico 65
Stockholm Sweden 63
Budapest Hungary 60
Madrid Spain 60
Prague Czech Republic 60
Vienna Austria 60
Buenos Aires Argentina 57
Johannesburg South Africa 57
Lisbon Portugal 57
London United Kingdom 57
Paris France 57
Amsterdam Netherlands 52
Helsinki Finland 48
Manila Philippines 48
Milan Italy 47
Sydney Australia 47
Bangkok Thailand 45
Hong Kong 45
Ljubljana Slovenia 45
Jakarta Indonesia 43
Taipei Taiwan 43
Moscow Russia 42
Singapore 42
Seoul South Korea 40
Kuala Lumpur Malaysia 37
Bucharest Romania 35
Mumbai India 32

[Buraku]

NY ain't so, but apparently their big NewYorker attitude has changed ever since the WTC attacks

The rude and ugly behaviour is rampant Tokyo, it's an over-priced unfriendly tourist attraction, and some of the worst offenders are the oyajis and young J-folk. Take the subway/underground to work in the morning and you'll see plenty of inappropriate behaviour.

[Mulboyne]

It looks like they just didn't include Tokyo in the survey. I don't think a lot of people would stop to help someone pick up dropped papers in Tokyo but if it was stuff that was rolling around then you might. As far as doors are concerned I can't remember anyone letting one swing back in my face lately but there are an awful lot of sliding doors in public spaces so I really don't notice it. Tokyo people tend to walk around in their own world when they are in the centre of town but if you get someone's attention, they usually try to be helpful. I don't think people set out to be actively rude. My parents certainly found people to be helpful and friendly during their trips.

In general, I've found Tokyo to be less brusque than Hong Kong or Paris but more uptight than, say, Spanish cities. A lot of these things are likely to be subjective. I can't believe a blonde-haired white girl would have the same experience as a middle-aged black man in many cities around the world.

[Collie Ransom]

Sounds about right to me.

[dimwit]

Can't really say about NY but their estimate of Hong Kong and Seoul seem actually high. My own experiences of those places was how refreshingly polite people were when I return to Japan. I would guess that Tokyo would rank fairly high up on the list, Osaka, where rudeness is a point of regional pride, far less so.

[Gilligan]

New York the most cureous city?!? There's a serious problem with the methodology--ever try to ask for directions in NYC? If you're lucky enough to find someone willing to talk to you, you have to run along side of them to get the answer because they won't stop.

*Full disclosure: I'm from Boston.

[Gilligan]

But I think that the notions of "rudeness" and "politeness" are somewhat cultural. I remember when I first lived in Tokyo, one of the things that bothered me the most was that people were too nice (I should note that at that time I didn't need to take the train to work) compared to living in northeast US -- you never had people completely ignore you if you were speaking to them and nobody would ever tell you that you were full of shit. But after going back to the US and then returning to Tokyo, I started riding the subway and trains everyday and noticed a difference. In northeast US, if you bumped into someone on the train or accidentally stepped on someone's foot, you would ALWAYS apologize, but not so in Tokyo.

If I were to rank the places that I've lived in terms of willingness to live there again, it would be:

1) Boston
2) Central Massachusetts
3) Upstate New York
4) Tokyo
Never again: Philadelphia and Kyoto

[CheapyD]

As some who has lived in NYC for 10 years and is now living in Tokyo, I can say Tokyo is definitely a more courteous city.

People leaving elevators here push the "door close" button on the way out...'nuff said!

[2triky]

I lived in New York, Los Angeles and the Bay Area, anywhere from a few years to several years per location, and when I visited Tokyo I was utterly shocked at the level of politeness I exprienced on a few occasions. In one instance, while eating sukiyaki in Akasaka, Tokyo at Yoshihashi...after paying for the meal, I asked the hostess in Japanese what was the best way to reach the nearest subway station...the woman personally walked my friend and I to the station which took about five to six minutes, bowed and left!?!? Shocking.

That is not even remotely possible in most major American cities.

[Naniwan Kid]

As I read the original post I thought, "Tokyo? Where is Osaka on this list?" Where station security guards will walk me to the Lost and Found or whatever I am looking for in Osaka, I am lucky to get more than a mumble from the guards at Tokyo Station.

And yes, this is not a list of the 35 most curious cities, just how these cities rank compared to each other. The % points on the right tally what % of people are courteous according to three seperate tests some reporters did. So in Seoul 2 out of 5 people might hold the door for you, where in New Your it's 4 out of 5.

[Jack]

I think that many respondants may have never been to Japan to be able to rank. Those surveys you have to take them with a grain of salt.

I have had only good experiences in Japan including a person buying my train ticket at Kansai airport to go to the city centre when I did not have enough change.

Those who say Japanese are rude are themselves scumbags. Japanese people are super polite and very helpful.

[Jack]

One instance in Nagoya right near the Hilton hotel there is a very small curry shop and bar. I had curry, 2 beers and smoked a cigar that I bought onsite. Waitress told me a number and I paid it.

Next morning I was walking in front of the shop when the girl of the previous night was preparing to open again and noticed me. She called me and said the night before she had overcharged me by 800 yen. She gave me the 800 yen back appologised for having made a mistake. I was floored. Nowhere else in this world will you ever see anything even close to that.

I travel every week and have done so for 23 years. I have been everywhere, eaten everywhere, and I can say without the shadow of a doubt, Japan is the most courteous place on the planet.

And yes, I live in Toronto now and can assure you this survey is bogus. Come visit Toronto. For every courteous person you meet I'll give you 10,000 yen.

[2triky]

another anecdote...one afternoon as i approached a turnstile in an effort to exit a JR Station i arrived at the turnstile at the same time as a Japanese guy....we both apologized to one another and insisted the other go first...we went back and forth urging the other to go ahead for about 30 seconds and the Japanese guy would not go through the turnstile until I went first...I was flabbergasted...I gave up, bowed, excused myself and went first....

after traveling the world I know that's unheard of....that survey, as alluded to by others, is bullsh*t. i don't think everybody in Japan is an angel but the methodology of the survey is obviously flawed.

[kamome]

I think that three "tests" are not enough to make a blanket statement about how courteous a city is. It's a survey based purely on anecdotal evidence (which is why it's such good fodder for discussion).

In some respects, Tokyo (or any Japanese city) is world-class in terms of politeness and courtesy; in other respects, Japan is at the bottom of the barrel. For example, in my experience the Japanese would flunk the holding-the-door test more often than not. But as Jack said, you will also find examples of extreme courtesy.

Gilligan: I live in NY and people will always give me directions without a problem (and I ask frequently because I'm still fairly new to the city). Don't know why you had a different experience.

P.S. I may live in NY, but I hate the Yankees. Go Red Sox!

[AssKissinger]

Japanese are rude as fuck to people they don't know. Who cares if someone's having a heart attck inside the ambulance? I gotta make it through the intersection! I lived in Brookyln in the early '90's and I think New Yorkers are ruder when they try to be but in Tokyo they don't have to try. Japanese have to try to be polite. Everything is a conscious effort instead of just being genuinely friendly.

[Greji]

I think that three "tests" are not enough to make a blanket statement about how courteous a city is. It's a survey based purely on anecdotal evidence (which is why it's such good fodder for discussion).

Japan does have its merits. I once had to escort the wife of the Mexican Ambassador to Japan to a major event we were hosting. There were some 120,000 in attendance. We had to walk through the general attendance area to get to the VIP seating. When we arrived she happened to look in her purse (a huge brand name bag) and her wallet was missing, which she immediately assumed had been pickpocketed.

It contained over 100,000 in yen, all the major credit cards, her diplomatic identification, and God knows whatelse. I then escorted her to security while thinking about such matters as where I would find my next job, how much I had accrued in retirement benefit, all in regards to how I would explain this to my Japanese boss.

When we arrived at our lost and found office, her billfold had already been turned in as apparently it had fallen out of her bag while we walking through the crowd. The person who found it told the security officer he did not want any reward because he didn't think he deserved one, as turning it in to lost and found was only the natural thing and that "anyone would do that".

She later wrote an article for ANA's magazine that was syndicated out about this incident, stating that it could only happen in Japan.

[dimwit]

I think the only way one can accurately gage courtesy is to take people out of their own environment and plop them in a another city. While most Asians, especially Chinese would still fail the horking on the street test, Japanese would fare quite well.

[GomiGirl]

This raises an interesting point. Courtesy is largely cultural so it is hard to measure by a standard yardstick. I am sure that things that I do could be considered rude in some countries, only because I don't know they are rude and might be kinda trivial to me.. eg which side of the table to sit at in a meeting (yes I do know the significance now)

Then there are other things that are contrary in different cultures eg blowing nose rather than sniffing. I find that sniffing constantly is kinda bad mannered but then blowing ones nose in Japan is also bad mannered.

The opening door thing is very much a western standard. My cousin has just arrived and he is delighting me by always opening doors etc. I had forgotten how nice it was as it is just not a Japanese cultural curtesy.

[Greji]

but then blowing ones nose in Japan is also bad mannered.

Nah, no problem. Just ask for an oshibori and honk out a big one (you might, however, wish to consider this technique for a mise for which you are not planing a return visit)!

[GomiGirl]

Nah, no problem. Just ask for an oshibori and honk out a big one (you might, however, wish to consider this technique for a mise for which you are not planing a return visit)!

Which is why I always carry tissues - although it is noticable that lately the tissue giver-outer-ers are not giving them out to foreigners.. even when you stand in front of them with your hand out. You would think that these kids who are paid to get rid of the tissues would give them to anybody that would take them. They are on slave wages so what should they care who gets them??

[Naniwan Kid]

I am not sure everyone is "getting it". This wasn't a survey of the most courteous cities in the world ranked 1 to 35. This is how 35 major cities in the world rank compared to each other. The ones at the bottom of the list are on the discourteous end (of course, ranked by what the American writer considered "courteous", and is kind of BS in that respect. If he started drinking before the "kampai" in Japan, he'd be the rude bastard).

[Jack]

The opening door thing is very much a western standard. My cousin has just arrived and he is delighting me by always opening doors etc. I had forgotten how nice it was as it is just not a Japanese cultural curtesy.

Where do you ever open doors in Japan? Everywhere I have been they've got the automatic sliding doors. The only door I open is my hotel room door. Haven't seen anyone opening doors for others in Toronto either.

[Jack]

Japanese are rude as fuck to people they don't know. Who cares if someone's having a heart attck inside the ambulance? I gotta make it through the intersection! I lived in Brookyln in the early '90's and I think New Yorkers are ruder when they try to be but in Tokyo they don't have to try. Japanese have to try to be polite. Everything is a conscious effort instead of just being genuinely friendly.

Couldn't disagree with you more. Japanese I see in canada are super polite, something I can't say of Iranians, Turks, Arabs and Eastern Europeans.

[Gilligan]

It's one thing to compare the politeness of residents of cities within a given culture because they all share cultural norms of politeness. But as GomiGirl and I have stated it's a little silly to compare across cultures. Things that are rude in one culture -- not holding a door open, stepping on someone's foot without apologizing, blowing one's nose in public, pouring one's one beer -- wouldn't even register on the politeness scale in another. It's the difference between what anthropologists would refer to as an emic and an etic perspective of a culture. An emic description is a description of a culture from the perspective of a member of that culture and an etic description is a description of that culture from a non-member.

[Baz]

The list is a sham, Milan is the rudest city on the planet.

[Jack]

It's one thing to compare the politeness of residents of cities within a given culture because they all share cultural norms of politeness. But as GomiGirl and I have stated it's a little silly to compare across cultures. Things that are rude in one culture -- not holding a door open, stepping on someone's foot without apologizing, blowing one's nose in public, pouring one's one beer -- wouldn't even register on the politeness scale in another. It's the difference between what anthropologists would refer to as an emic and an etic perspective of a culture. An emic description is a description of a culture from the perspective of a member of that culture and an etic description is a description of that culture from a non-member.

Your explanation is fine and dandy but you are missing the point. The person paying for my train fee at the airport or the girl giving me back the 800 yen the next day has nothing to do with what you are saying. It is being nice plain and simple in any culture, any country and any race.

Opening doors or blowing ones nose and so forth are all trivial stuff. Everywhere in the world people tend to be more or less the same. Save for touching someone's head in Asia is a no-no but a sign of affection in the West, or pointing your feet in Thailand is rude but not for us and so on. Other shit that goes on like putting up one's feet on the train or subway, something you often see in North America is rude. Just because it is done it doesn't mean it's not rude. Similarly blowing your nose at the dinner table like English people do is not only gross it's plain not polite in any fucking culture. So you can go on and on about these things. Bottom line is Japanese people are polite and kind in the absolute sense of the wrod.

[Mulboyne]

Bottom line is Japanese people are polite and kind

I'll give you polite but I wouldn't call Japan a kind country. AK put it too strongly for my taste when he wrote "Japanese are rude as fuck to people they don't know." but he's right that the distinction makes a huge difference. I've no doubt there are many traveller's tales about the lengths that some locals have gone to when helping someone out but I don't think that comes from a culture of kindness.

[Gilligan]

Your explanation is fine and dandy but you are missing the point.

Actually Jack, I'd say you're the one missing the point... on two counts.

First, while I would absolutely commend that curry-shop worker for returning your 800 yen, is that poiteness or honesty? Or are you arguing that they're the same thing? In defense, I'd have to argue that one can be polite without being honest and honest without being polite and so they're different things.

As to your point about things like stepping on one's foot or holding doors opening being trivial, while agreeing with you, I would have to say that that proves my point. Most of the things that one culture considers polite would be considered trivial in another culture. The fact that you can accept those things as trivial (and the assumed fact that you then wouldn't base your opinion about a person on those things) says more about about you than it does about the topic being discussed.

As to your presumption that there is such a thing as "absolute politeness". Sorry, no such thing. Openly belching at the table in front of others polite or not? Openly picking one's teeth at the table after a meal, polite or not? Openly blowing one's nose at the table, polite or not? What defines politeness is what is DONE in a community. So if the members of a given community consistently do any of the above, then they cannot be considered rude in that community. When dealing with culturally based constructs, there's no such thing as absolutes.

[Gilligan]

Gilligan: I live in NY and people will always give me directions without a problem (and I ask frequently because I'm still fairly new to the city). Don't know why you had a different experience.

P.S. I may live in NY, but I hate the Yankees. Go Red Sox!

As a general rule of thumb, I figure anyone with enough sense to hate the Yankees is a good man.

As to the whole asking for directions thing, it's probably a combination of place (downtown Manhattan), time (midday of a weekday), age (I was probably just out of college), distance (probably been 15 years since I visited NYC on a regular basis), and anecdotal evidence. I still would never live in NYC unless I absoltely had to. Great place to visit, though. Now if I could only say the same for Philly.

[Naniwan Kid]

It is kind of a silly argument. The rude whore-shucker who yelled at me "NO GAIJIN" as I walked passed his pink salon would be on the rude end, but the nice shop owner who gave me as many clothes hangers as I could carry, right when I moved to Japan, at no cost, would be considered courteous. I would not consider the 7-year-old who took a leak right next to my bicycle on a Saturday morning polite, but the young man that walked more than 10 minutes to show me the shop I was looking for when my eyes started rolling back in my head from his directions, I would consider polite.