Why are Japanese girls so stubborn?

[Jack]

Reading the thrtead about Yuka Honda and dog sledding in Canada, that reminded me of how stubborn many Japanese girls are. When they put seomthing in their mind, no one is ever able to persuade them otherwise.

A 45 yeard old married woman coming on a farmstay in Canada because that has been her long-cherrished dream.
Spending all their savings on a trip to see the northern Lights even though 99% of Canadians don't even care about that.
Saving for years just to make enough money to come to Canada and obtain a private pilot's license.
Leaving friends and family behind at 17 years old to study in the US because her dream is to become an astronaut.
Quitting work at 36 years old to enter university and get a medical degree.

Those are all real examples that I have encountered and there are many more like those. What's the big deal with Japanese people and those lofty dream. That 17 year old bitch has not hope in hell of becomng an astronuat but has been in the US studying for 4 years now. The girl that is trying to get her private pilot license is throwing up everytime she is inflight. After one year and exhausting the $30,000 she brought with her and overstaying her visa, she still is not close to getting her license.

[nullpointer]

Your point being?

[Ketou]

Yep, lost me too.

Quitting work to get a medical degree.......I'd love to do that...and I'm past 36!

[Tsuru]

Hardly a bad thing, I would think.

Better this than turning 30 or 40 and finally waking up to the reality that life is passing you by at an alarming pace. I think it was James Dean who once said it's better to regret something you did than regretting something you didn't.

[Jack]

Yep, lost me too.

Quitting work to get a medical degree.......I'd love to do that...and I'm past 36!

So you are proving my point. You would like to do it but you wont because you have other priorities. Japanese girls would ditch everything else and go for it.

[Jack]

Your point being?

Who else in the world would quit a (presumably) comfortable life in Japan and go live with the eskimos to race dogs?

If you can't see my point you are one huge fucking moron like most gaijins in Japan. (Try insulting so many in so few words. That's a challenge.)

[jingai]

Blatant generality.

I see your point and think these are the exceptions to the rule. How many Japanese people have you met living creative and carefree lives, regardless of what anyone else wants them to do. Yep, didn't think so.

Look at popular culture. Haven't you ever seen any of the TV shows or movies about the salariman who devotes his life to his company and lets his family wither? What about the giri/ninjo tropes about yakuza, etc, who give up everything for their duty, the idea of gaman, and sho ga nai? How does that square with Japanese people stubbornly pursuing their individualistic dream?

Are you trying to say that there are fundamental differences BETWEEN Japanese women and men? That men are stuck in the system but (single) women are less likely to be satisfied by their lot in life and freer to go their own way (and leave Japan altogether)?

[Charles]

My local university recently admitted a 54 year old American woman to their medical degree program. Some people argued against her, claiming she'd be at retirement age before she finished the 9 year M.D. program.

[Jack]

Blatant generality.

Are you trying to say that there are fundamental differences BETWEEN Japanese women and men? That men are stuck in the system but (single) women are less likely to be satisfied by their lot in life and freer to go their own way (and leave Japan altogether)?

No, I am not suggesting that except that my observations are all of women. If my sample size is say 40 or so Japanese women and perhaps greater number of Canadian women and I have never seen this behaviour in Canadian women while having seen several Japanese, I can safely say that Japanese women are the way I describe. And my issue with that behaviour is that I don't understand the narrow focus on one trivial objective.

One american woman going to university at an advanced stage might be just to fulfill her fancy without sacrificing family and fortune. The example that I gave of the 36 year old is sacrificing family and life savings. Totally different.

[aljones15]

You left out the woman who scrambled up Everest in Into Thin Air and then froze to death. Hasayo Namba correct?

"Who else in the world would quit a (presumably) comfortable life in Japan and go live with the eskimos to race dogs? "

Actually, there's a lot of people who do these things. People join the Peace Corps for instance. Anyway, I do see part of your point. There is a high competiveness and solidarty which aren't seen as bad things in Japanese culture, but there are also plenty of folks from Australia, New Zealand, the U.S., India, Germany, Taiwan, etc. doing crazy shit. Kevin Kelly hitch hiked through South East Asia in the 60s and then into the middle east. There are people who have ridden their bicycles from London to Beijing or around the entirety of the U.S. a couple of times, a kid in Germany built an entire roller coaster by hand in his backyard, etc. Also, having been on the receiving side of a stubborn Japanese woman who I apparently offended by apologizing to I'm not sure it's entirely a good thing all the time. Nothing like getting Tokyo Fisted ala Tskumoto.

"Spending all their savings on a trip to see the northern Lights even though 99% of Canadians don't even care about that. "

But what about the tourists who come to Japan to see the medevial japanese stuff that 99% of Japanese don't care about?

"What's the big deal with Japanese people and those lofty dream."

I actually also associated the lofty dreams thing with the U.S. I'm glad to see this has been transfered to Japan where people might actually make good on them =)

"That 17 year old bitch has not hope in hell of becomng an astronuat but has been in the US studying for 4 years now. The girl that is trying to get her private pilot license is throwing up everytime she is inflight. After one year and exhausting the $30,000 she brought with her and overstaying her visa, she still is not close to getting her license."

The major problem I'm seeing here is that you have absolutely no faith in the ability of these people to overcome their environment, self, or consequences. Who cares if the girl throws up every time she flies? And tons of people have gotten their flying liceneses regardless. Maybe that 17 year old bitch will be the first japanese female astronaut. It's definitely not outside of the realm of possiblity, and plus privatized space travel is now an actual industry so by the time she graduates college there will be regular flights into the stratosphere which I might add is another lofty dream that has recently become possible.

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A

[makenai]

Er.. so what the fuck's wrong with you? Are you bitter because you can't find the courage, time or method of following your dreams? You feel trapped, so your only recourse is to lash out at people who broke free? Did some stubborn Japanese girl leave you behind to do something better?

Seriously - you only get one shot at life. What's so bad about doing what you want to do before checking out? You can't go back in time to correct your mistakes, so the only things to do are to try and make up for them or give up. If it's important enough to you, you're not going give up, no matter how stupid anyone thinks you are for doing it.

[Greji]

One american woman going to university at an advanced stage might be just to fulfill her fancy

Jack, am I correct in saying that you are statingthat going to medical school (regardless of age) to become a doctor and help people is a "fantasy"?

A fantasy? Are you sure that's the right word?

My idea of as fantasy is being locked in a room of a church (for the funeral services) full of nymphomaniacs with a bathtub full of viagara.

[nullpointer]

Are you saying it's stupid for someone to do something they want if it falls outside the bounds of "socially acceptable behaviour", as defined by you? Wow. Some people are born retarded due to a genetic defect, but you, sir, are a self made man.

[Captain Japan]

I'm not siding with Jack nesessarily on this one but if he's trying to say that Japanese tend toward extremes (in both directions) I do sort of see it.

Someone already mentioned the living-death salarymen existence. Others have said you should shoot for the dream since you could drop dead anytime.

So what's wrong with thinking a little and going for something in between?

But at the same time, what if the families of these folks Jack is talking about are loaded? Who cares what they do then?

[otakuden]

sounds pretty damn spiff to me i've worked too damn hard and not taken enough vacations. that's all gonna change next year indeed. and i'll finally get to take one of my hopefully many trips to japan, and other places i wanna visit.
for a country where ur not supposed to follow ur dreams, to have the guts to commit urself, no matter whom else thinks it's silly - i think that rocks.

[cstaylor]

But at the same time, what if the families of these folks Jack is talking about are loaded? Who cares what they do then?

Bingo. Regular Japanese would need to scrape for months just to afford a three-day vacation in the U.S. Sending a 17 year-old kid to astronaut training? Rich beyond belief IMHO.

[Captain Japan]

I've met very few of these dreamers here in Japan who are doing it on their own. They've nearly all got their parents bankrolling them.

I think Fuji's little honey with her hotel in Meguro is the perfect example. She went to LA when she was 15 and came back to Japan to pick up a hotel.

[GomiGirl]

Jack is coming at it as the poster child of the dinosaurs who believe in the 1950's stereotype of what women should be - housewives, mothers and basically taking care of their men.

They are being selfish and stubborn as these girls are not doing what good japanese girls should do... and that makes him mad.

Jack - why should you care? You have your well behaved J-wife who cooks you 3 meals a day and stays at home taking care of you so you can be hunter gatherer manly centre of your universe. Stay out of other people's worlds and let them be.

[Greji]

of what women should be - housewives, mothers and basically taking care of their men.

Ahh, do you mean things have changed?

[Oradea]

There is absolutely nothing at all wrong with picking up and following your dreams one day, and lets face it, if it does happen, its bound to be a pretty spontaneous action. (I'm going with the bankrolled by the parents assumption).

I can understand that Jack may be concerned if these people are "Fleeing" any responsibilities they might have back in Japan, vis-a-vis family obligations, however, that is just speculation right, you havent told us much of the individuals family situation, so we cant really comment on it.

As for not seeing any Canadians running off to follow their dreams, then thats maybe cuz your looking in Canada, and if they are running off to follow there dreams, then they wont be hanging around toronto will they.

Jack, why does that kind of behaviour irk you so much?
So much so that you push yourself into a corner, generalizing about gaijin in japan, and perverting your original grievance?

What's so wrong with Jacks life that he gets so anti about others seemingly enjoying theres?

[kamome]

I'm not siding with Jack nesessarily on this one but if he's trying to say that Japanese tend toward extremes (in both directions) I do sort of see it.

Yes, I think Jack's use of the word "stubborn" is a misstatement - J-women (and J-men for that matter) always seem to approach things like a maniac.

[Mulboyne]

I'm not siding with Jack nesessarily on this one but if he's trying to say that Japanese tend toward extremes (in both directions) I do sort of see it.

You could always argue that Japan is a culture in which religion plays a minor role and so it offers a larger stage for existential engagement. There's a topic for Friday night drinks.

[maraboutslim]

A few things:

I think as gaijin that the Japanese women and men we meet and associate with are more likely to be the type that are somewhat outside the mainstream of "typical" japanese life and therefore we should be careful about making generalizations about "the japanese" based on our experience, or comparing the five Japanese we know who have done X wacky thing to the forty of our countrymen back home we know who've never done it and then making some declaration on the differences between the two nationalities.

Sure, some of you work boring office gigs in a typical japanese corporation and observer typical workerbees. And a few of you may live in a mansion or aparto in a building where all other residents are typical Japanese families and you observe and get to know them. But not many of you, right? Heck, one might even be able to make the argument that any Japanese you happen to be friends with is not typical Japanese and have proved such by being friends with or even associating with a gaijin.


Another thing: yes, life is short and you only get one (or only remember one at a time anyway). This means it is too short for dreams. Forget that shit, I say. Why waste time chasing the future? Live for today, man, live for today!

[Jack]

Jack, why does that kind of behaviour irk you so much?
So much so that you push yourself into a corner, generalizing about gaijin in japan, and perverting your original grievance?

What's so wrong with Jacks life that he gets so anti about others seemingly enjoying theres?

Actually this was not a criticism of Japanese people. I think that being in Canada I can see more of those who have left Japan to pursue a dream that to us seems trivial at best. There was a wealthy Canadian real estate developer who got his high school degree at the age of 75 3 years ago. That's one thing... But what I was trying to understand is the single-minded purpose of pursuing a dream, like I said may be trivial to us, at the expense of everything else and no one can make them change their mind. I do not observe this behaviour amongs other people.

No big deal, I have done a few of those girls in Canada so the more the better for me. I was simply making an observation. They are not so rich as they have to do odd jobs to finance their dreams. The girl trying to be a pilot is banging everyone in the flight school and surrounding communities (as per her current Japanese boyfriend) because she has no more money to pursue her stupid dream.

There is nothing wrong with my life at all. In fact most guys here envy my lifestyle.

[gekisou]

Id rather be trying something I have always wanted to do and fail rather then sitting back and taking the easy road.... Whats the point of life (beside religion) if you dont go for the top? I think thats why I always fit in well in Japan - aim for the top... just I dont agree about the mental "harakiri" if you fall short!

My goals;
I will one day live in Japan and have an office there
I will get my medical degree
I will have a family

Not that outrageous, but when you consider the order I am doing them (as listed above) then its a bit strange.

[Oradea]

Jack>

Ok. So it's the part about the blindly following dreams and not the part about its always japanese people doing it.

Well, Tunnel vision happens to many people, and leads them in many different ways.

I guess we can never fully understand the single minded purpose of pursuing a dream , as you put it, until it is ourselves in that position.

Surely theres something that you are passionate about and follow with an almost religious manner?? Is that something that could easily be understood by another countryman, or even a foreigner?

[Jack]

Jack>
Surely theres something that you are passionate about and follow with an almost religious manner?? Is that something that could easily be understood by another countryman, or even a foreigner?

Oradea sama, you are either new here or has not read many of my posts or else you would know that I am dead passionate about only one thing: J-girls.

[otakuden]

Jack is coming at it as the poster child of the dinosaurs who believe in the 1950's stereotype of what women should be - housewives, mothers and basically taking care of their men.

They are being selfish and stubborn as these girls are not doing what good japanese girls should do... and that makes him mad.

whether they're freeloaders or not and actually footing the cost themselves, whatever. it's their lives, their money, they're choice. if they're chasing a dream and bucking the norm, whether it fails or succeeds, ya gotta respect that. i sure do. it beats looking back in 20, 30, whatever years and regretting taking those chances u "almost" did, but decided not to cause it wasn't "rational".
i say, rock on sista!