Electronic dictionaries

[Mennon]

Can anyone recommened a good electronic dictionary? I'm studying for my 2kyu this year, and I'd prefer an electronic dic. designed for english speakers studying Japanese, not the other way around.

[Andocrates]

Cannon word tank. They last forever. The only thing better might be something with a stylus you could use to draw kanji (kanji recognition)

You at Yamasa? (well of course you are

[FG Lurker]

One of the top word tank models has a stylus on it, but if that is too expensive there is a cheap Casio that does too.

I bought one of the Casio's last year and find it helpful at work. I got so sick and tired of "drawing" kanji with a mouse into the IME Pad!!

The word tank is probably more intelligent though. If my writing gets a bit sloppy on the Casio it doesn't recognize the character.

Good luck!

[B Gallagher]

ditto on the canon word tank. i've got one and it's great.

good luck with 2kyu! you sure are starting early!!

[Andocrates]

One of the top word tank models has a stylus on it, but if that is too expensive there is a cheap Casio that does too.

Oh hell, why did you have to say that, I just paid a credit card down.

[FG Lurker]

One of the top word tank models has a stylus on it, but if that is too expensive there is a cheap Casio that does too.

Oh hell, why did you have to say that, I just paid a credit card down.

The Casio is literally an E-J J-E dictionary with kanji recognition. You have to write neatly too, or it doesn't get it.

The word tank does quite a bit more, and I would imagine the recognition engine has more intelligence too.

The Casio was only about 10,000 yen though so I got that instead!

[sillygirl]

Ooh, me too! I want a new one.

What model is your casio,FGL? (this is with a stylus, right?)

Cheers

[Charles]

Canon Wordtanks are notorious for their shoddy construction. The hinge tends to break, causing the LCD to become unusuable. There are other problems. For example, here's a pic of the keyboard of my own IDX-9500. What's wrong with this picture?

Wordtanks are for newbies. They're almost useless for looking up kanji. They're good for use in spoken conversations, you can type in the kana and get a few alternatives, then show it to the other person and have them select which word they mean. I sometimes use my Wordtank when I know the reading of a word but have forgotten the kanji, so I can type in the kana and get the kanji. Otherwise, the wordtank is pretty useless, unless you live in a world where they only use kana.
If you're going for 2kyuu, you really need something with pen input. You should be sufficiently able to draw any kanji, and get a quick reading and definition. I like my old Zaurus, but the newer ones don't come standard with dictionary features like the older ones. I believe you can download dictionaries for use with the newest Zaurus models, but the new units are rather pricey. You really should not be basing your decision on whether the device is targeted at Japanese-second-language learners vs native speakers. By this point in your studies you should be capable of using native materials easily.

[sillygirl]

I just want one that I can write kanji on with a stylus. Any recommedations, Charles? Anyone?

Also, I live out in the sticks, Tokyo is a pain to get to. Where could I buy one of these puppies?

Thanks

[Andocrates]

Canon Wordtanks are notorious for their shoddy construction. The hinge tends to break, causing the LCD to become unusuable. There are other problems. For example, here's a pic of the keyboard of my own IDX-9500. What's wrong with this picture?

Wordtanks are for newbies. They're almost useless for looking up kanji. They're good for use in spoken conversations, you can type in the kana and get a few alternatives, then show it to the other person and have them select which word they mean. I sometimes use my Wordtank when I know the reading of a word but have forgotten the kanji, so I can type in the kana and get the kanji. Otherwise, the wordtank is pretty useless, unless you live in a world where they only use kana.
If you're going for 2kyuu, you really need something with pen input. You should be sufficiently able to draw any kanji, and get a quick reading and definition. I like my old Zaurus, but the newer ones don't come standard with dictionary features like the older ones. I believe you can download dictionaries for use with the newest Zaurus models, but the new units are rather pricey. You really should not be basing your decision on whether the device is targeted at Japanese-second-language learners vs native speakers. By this point in your studies you should be capable of using native materials easily.

Isn't that a seiko product?

[Maths Dude]

If you want to practice kanji without destroying Brazils rainforests in the process, use one of those kids (plastic) magnetic drawing pads from ToysRus. They are great!

[Charles]

I just want one that I can write kanji on with a stylus. Any recommedations, Charles? Anyone?

You will have to be more specific on your needs. No one dictionary is best for everyone or every task. I think Wordtanks are better for beginners, but lousy for advanced users who need more kanji lookups. Advanced students tend to need to look up kanji more often, and often don't need a definition, just a reading. Pen-input machines like the Zaurus are great for that. Some models are relatively useless for JSL students, I've heard many students complain that their Seiko models don't have furigana so it's relatively hard to get readings easily. Seiko units seem designed for native speakers. Some people want specialized dictionaries, like the Kojien, several manufacturers offer that dict. You'd need to be pretty advanced or into specialized work to need a Kojien. Really it all depends on what you want out of a dictionary, what level you're at, etc. Think hard about your needs and you'll be better able to make a good buying decision.

I think different dictionaries are good for different uses. I tend to use my Zaurus first, get a reading, and if I need more info, I can type the reading into an online dict like WWWJDIC or use a big paper dict like the Kenkyusha New EJ that has everything. If I'm writing, I tend to use my Wordtank if I can't remember a reading and just need the kanji (of course it's easy to do this at a computer since it usually converts kana to the right kanji easily). Gee, I should go look at my shelf and see how many paper dictionaries I own today.. I found 12 dictionaries, but I think I might have missed a couple. That's not including about 6 weird dictionary-ish references like idiom dicts, grammar dicts, etc. I love dictionaries. That also doesn't include my Wordtank, Zaurus, Mac-EJDICT and Mac Kojien. But the two dicts I use most are the Zaurus and the Kenkyusha New EJ.

I was window shopping for electronic dicts in April when I went over, but I didn't see anything so compelling that I wanted to upgrade, except the new Zaurus which was way out of my price range. I was rather impressed with some of the new Sony units, which are more Wordtank-ish but are better constructed and much smaller. Also there were a few models with pen input. I'm looking through some brochures and it looks like the Casio XD-470 and XD-450A offer pen input. Well actually, the brochure shows a stylus but it doesn't say anything about pen input. I recall some inexpensive pen-input units from Sharp that I liked, but I failed to get a brochure. All this stuff is online anyway.

Anyway, this might be a good time to plug my Dictionary Comparison website. It is rather old, but will give you some ideas about what to look for in a dictionary.

[Charles]

Isn't that a seiko product?

Nope, Canon makes the Wordtank.

[Andocrates]

To be fair, Charles, that thing is from 1993. Canon wordtanks today are awesome and very sturdy. It is a small electronic device, and it will break if you drop it. The real flimsy dictionary is the Seiko. The canon we are speaking of is far more practical then a PDA and has kanji recoginition..

[Charles]

If you want to practice kanji without destroying Brazils rainforests in the process, use one of those kids (plastic) magnetic drawing pads from ToysRus. They are great!

I disagree. To practice writing kanji, you need the tactile feedback of a pen or pencil running across paper. People always come up with "innovative" ideas like the Magnedoodle tablet or whiteboard & markers, but they just don't do the job properly.

What you need is a pad of lined paper and a mechanical pencil. Turn the pad on its side so the lines run vertical, that's better practice since most people tend to write with more improper variation horizontally rather than vertically. You really need a writing instrument with a point, because there are tons of little calligraphic tricks you need to know. For example, many times you need a little hook at the end of a stroke, or you need to draw a second stroke with its starting point on another line. It's almost impossible to do these little tricks with a smooth surface like a Magnedoodle or a whiteboard. Jeez it's hard to describe this stuff, it would be easier to show you, it would take 2 seconds.

Well, I guess I can show you a little bit. I scanned a few lessons on calligraphy and put them up on a web page. Note that most calligraphy is oriented towards use of a brush, I've seen a lot of students who practice with a brush or brush-pen and it is absolutely counterproductive. But several illustrations on my web page are done in pen, it's from a book about "pen-ji" (writing with a pen) and I guarantee this sort of skill is about a thousand times more useful and practical than fooling around with a brush.

[FG Lurker]

Ooh, me too! I want a new one.

What model is your casio,FGL? (this is with a stylus, right?)

Cheers

I have the very basic XD-470. It works well for my needs -- looking up readings for kanji that I don't recognize.

I'm not sure why Charles is so down on the wordtanks. The basic Canon models are just that -- very basic. The top models do a good job though. You can either write the kanji and it will give you the readings and some compound samples, or you can look up the kanji via reading/radical/stroke count, and it will show you the character as well as the correct order to write it if you are not sure. The screens on the Canons are also higher resolution than the Casio I bought -- they show finer detail which is good for some of the more complex characters.

The Zaurus also does a good job from what I have heard. But it is an entire pocket computer, much bigger, more complex, and expensive than any of the wordtanks. Many people don't need anymore than what a good wordtank offers.

After using the Casio for a few months it has definite limits. If you have picked up some bad-habit shortcuts when writing Kanji it doesn't always recognize the character! I am not sure if the Canons are a lot better or not -- it would be good to try them out first if the recognition is a big reason for the purchase.

[sillygirl]

Thanks for that. Guess I'll have to check out Yamada denki or Kojima denki. I couldn't find the XD 470 on Amazon....unless anyone has recommedations for other online shopping sites in Japan where I can pay COD.....

[Charles]

To be fair, Charles, that thing is from 1993. Canon wordtanks today are awesome and very sturdy. It is a small electronic device, and it will break if you drop it. The real flimsy dictionary is the Seiko. The canon we are speaking of is far more practical then a PDA and has kanji recoginition..

I still hear the hinge complaints from more modern WT users, even from some people who keep them on their desks and never take them anywhere. It's a common design problem, there is a little flat ribbon cable that has to thread through the hinge to the LCD, it flexes over and over when you open and close the case, eventually it breaks. If you want something Wordtank-ish, the Sony models are much better constructed, smaller, and use metal cases instead of plastic, they seem much better built, and I rather like the Langensheidt EJ JE that comes in some of them. But evaluate carefully for yourself, if this is something you carry everywhere, it better be durable. I personally got tired of carrying a dictionary during my last trip to Japan, I decided it was easier to just do without, even if it meant a communication problem occasionally.

Personally, I don't see the use of a keyboard on a pen-input device. It looks like when you draw on the screen you can bump your hand on the keys, causing input errors. I like the tablet-style no-kbd units like the Casio XD-450A, there is no hinge to break. They all have little on-screen keyboards you can tap on with the stylus, and besides, if you can't write kana or kanji quickly and easily, a dictionary is not going to give you the kind of help you need.

[devicenull]

I picked up the V80. I will agree that a lot of it is pretty beginnerish, but the stylus input is great. I can write sloppy all I want, not even in the correct stroke order and it will find my kanji and reading in both chinese and japanese.

[sillygirl]

Found and ordered the XD 470 on Amazon. Thanks, Mr Lurker.

[FG Lurker]

Found and ordered the XD 470 on Amazon. Thanks, Mr Lurker.

I hope it works out well for you sillygirl! I like mine and have learned to live with its recognition quirks... Please let me know what you think of yours when it arrives!

[sillygirl]

Sure will.

[sillygirl]

Got it.

Love it.

But you're right, have to write the stroke (oo-er misses) order properly....

[Charles]

But you're right, have to write the stroke (oo-er misses) order properly....

Pen input works from 3 basic inputs: stroke direction, stroke crossing, and stroke order. Basically you can scribble as badly as you want, but if those 3 features match what the program wants, it will get the right kanji. Don't know if that will help much.

Also you might notice difficulty with roman character input, particularly the letters l (lower case L) g q and t. There might be a diagram in the manual showing the way the program expects these characters to be written. I am particularly annoyed at the way you have to write lower case L, which often gets misrecognized as e. I have sloppy English handwriting, my Japanese handwriting is much better than my English.

[sillygirl]

Yeah, I noticed that. It's actually faster to use the QUERTY input.

Thanks for the advice.

[FG Lurker]

Got it.

Love it.

But you're right, have to write the stroke (oo-er misses) order properly....

Thanks for the follow-up post! Glad it is working out well for you.

[Charles]

Yeah, I noticed that. It's actually faster to use the QUERTY input.

Oh, it's not so bad once you get used to writing roman characters the way the PDA expects. But you're right, it's probably faster to tap out QWERTY (although I always seem to have trouble getting my Zaurus to switch input modes back and forth).

But in compensation for that hassle, the PDA knows a few cool things in kanji that will make your life easier. How's your cursive? I sometimes show these two basic cursive characters to beginning students, inputting them on a PDA blows their mind, they realize for the first time that there are easier ways to write complex kanji.



The top one is

[QwertyJPC]

I am having trouble finding an electronic J-E E-J electronic dictionary here in the US. Basically, I looked up Fry's Electronics and Office Depot and they don't have zauruses. I googled zaurus, USA and the second link says that Sharp is not selling zauruses in the US anymore. crap!

I google zaurus, USA, stores and saw the SL5500 for sale
at Amazon, http://www0.shopping.com/xPC-Sharp_Zaurus_SL_5500
it is priced at around $313 without shipping.

I googled wordtank and found the Canon Wordtank G55 Handheld Japanese/English Electronic Dictionary at this link, http://www.worldlanguage.com/Products/106021.htm
this Canon wordtank is selling for $379 without shipping;

But I don't know which one to get...

Basically, I am a first year, second semester student. My teacher said to buy an electronic dictionary if you are going for the Japanese major or minor. I am going for the minor. I hope I will be taking Japanese 101A in two years.

Basically, since I have the Spahn & Hadamitzsky kanji paper dictionary, do I really need an electronic dictionary now, or should I wait next year or the year afterward?

[omae mona]

[quote="QwertyJPC"]I googled wordtank and found the Canon Wordtank G55 Handheld Japanese/English Electronic Dictionary at this link,http://www.worldlanguage.com/Products/106021.htm
this Canon wordtank is selling for $379 without shipping]

Just bear in mind that the G55 is really designed for Japanese speakers, not for English speakers. I think it might be a bit difficult to work with until you're at an intermediate level with at least a few hundred kanji under your belt (are you there yet?). For now, I'd think the J-E would be semi-usable, and you could probaby use the Kanji dictionary to look up readings of characters. The E-J might be tough, as will the detailed discussions of kanji.

I have a feeling there must be other dictionaries out there that are more geared at people learning Japanese.

[Charles]

I am having trouble finding an electronic J-E E-J electronic dictionary here in the US. Basically, I looked up Fry's Electronics and Office Depot and they don't have zauruses. I googled zaurus, USA and the second link says that Sharp is not selling zauruses in the US anymore. crap!

The US editions of the Zaurus were different than the Japanese versions. But it doesn't matter anymore because the US editions are discontinued and Sharp does not sell any Zaurus models in the US. You're not going to find any decent EJ/JE electronic dictionaries at any US office supply store.

If you want a Zaurus model with a Japanese dictionary, you'll have to buy it in Japan or from an importer. Unfortunately, the Japanese Zaurus models I saw a couple of years ago have dramatically reduced their dictionary functions, replacing it with a "translate" function. But those functions are always evolving, so things might have changed.