IS HE... HOMOSEXUAL?

[Andocrates]

I'm pretty sure science is religion. In the middle ages scientists proved all kinds of crap like the sun revolved around the earth (after they decided the world wasn't flat.) I get a kick out of people who think mankind is sooo enlightened that now we have all the answers, when in fact we are still as backward, unjust and brutal as ever.

For some science is a god to hide behind, they quote it, argue over it, get incensed when someone disagrees - just like a room full of Calvinists. I myself don't really know with any certainty what the truth is, and that's a real truth.

And Darwin has been proven wrong over and over again he's not really worth defending. That argument was flawed from the get-go. The argument that the basic properties of carbons interact in much the same way life acts is a much more sound argument to try and shake someones faith.

[ramchop]

I'm pretty sure science is religion. In the middle ages scientists proved all kinds of crap like the sun revolved around the earth (after they decided the world wasn't flat.) I get a kick out of people who think mankind is sooo enlightened that now we have all the answers, when in fact we are still as backward, unjust and brutal as ever.

Science does not have all the answers and it never will. It will however get a lot closer to many of the answers than religion will.

Your middle ages example. Scientists were proved wrong by who? More scientists. And that's the strength of the discipline, it is open to new ideas, theories, evidence. Science is not shackled to some fairytale notion, nor is it bound by the theories of the past.

Sound idealistic? Perhaps, but I'm a scientist, I'll defend my "faith" as much as anyone.

And Darwin has been proven wrong over and over again he's not really worth defending. That argument was flawed from the get-go. The argument that the basic properties of carbons interact in much the same way life acts is a much more sound argument to try and shake someones faith.

Darwin's theory has been modified over and over again. That doesn't mean it's fundamentally wrong.

[American Oyaji]

Man was designed and created by God. And it takes a lot less faith to believe we were created by God than it does to believe WE are descended from monkeys. And if we are from monkeys, where are the lizard people?

The evidence in this case may be sketchy in some places but as a whole it overwhelmingly outweighs the evidence of one book written a few thousand years ago.

Which sciences do you choose to believe in?
- Physics?
- Chemistry?
- Biology?
All these fields support the view that the Bible's view of seriously ancient history is flawed.

You wish to pick and choose your sciences? Go back to living in a cave.

I'll ignore the childish dig at the end there.

Anyway, I don't know what scientific journals you subscribe to, but thoe "fields" you mention don't deal much with acient history so their "views" i.e. theories about the Bible's worth aren't worth much in that regards.

What they ARE good at is describing how the world around us was put together and how it works and how everything is interconnected.

Which sciences do I believe in? I don't "believe" in any science in a religious sense. I do believe that pure science is to find out how a system works and why.

Now archaeology (sp?) actually supports a lot of the Bible's assertions with proof from things dug up from ancient ruins.

I do believe Biblical prophecy. In fact the most recent prophecy that was fulfilled was Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 after being exiled for 2000 years.

One of the next prophecies to occur will be a massive attack on Israel by either Russia and/or former Soviet bloc countries with Iran and Egypt. This attack will be so massive that Israel will have no chance to survive except by divine intervention. The Bible says that Israel will be spared and the attacking armies completely wiped out by God. There will be so much raw material left over that it will last Israel for about 7 years.

Another prophecy is the rapture of the true Christians from the earth. They will go to heaven and this will signal the beginning of the end of secular life on this planet. For more info, check out Apocolypse Soon

Do I believe this stuff? With all my heart. Does it make me some sort of kook? Not that I care, but make that decision after it happens. Until then....reserve judgement.

Another good site for those interested is Chick Tracts

But getting back to the main point.
No matter what happens in your life. You still have a CHOICE to do what you do. No one forces you except in cases of rape. Even with torture, one has a choice. Accept torture to death, or submit. Sucky choice, but a choice nonetheless. That is my point ramchop. One's sexuality is all about what they CHOOSE to be.

[Big Booger]

But that supposes that man is born homosexual (according to your logical argument).


Well following along those lines, if man could be come homosexual then God theoretically could as well.
Thanks for fixing my logical statement.

[American Oyaji]

But here is the important point.

You choose to believe in God, or you choose not to.

And you accept the rewards and consequences of either choice.

[ramchop]

Anyway, I don't know what scientific journals you subscribe to, but thoe "fields" you mention don't deal much with acient history so their "views" i.e. theories about the Bible's worth aren't worth much in that regards.

Those fields are pretty much it in science, everything else stems from them. Seriously ancient history stretches much further back than a few man made ruins.

What they ARE good at is describing how the world around us was put together and how it works and how everything is interconnected.

Doesn't the scientific verison of "how the world was put together" differ from that of Christianity?

Another prophecy is the rapture of the true Christians from the earth. They will go to heaven and this will signal the beginning of the end of secular life on this planet.

This is a major problem I have with religion. What is a "true" Christian? And if God is a compassionate entity, why is a murderer who has accepted JC as his saviour more likely to ascend to heaven than a lowly scientist who strives to cure some of the worlds diseases?


Apologies for the childish dig at the end, but Darwin was not a "flippin idiot".

But getting back to the main point.
No matter what happens in your life. You still have a CHOICE to do what you do. No one forces you except in cases of rape. Even with torture, one has a choice. Accept torture to death, or submit. Sucky choice, but a choice nonetheless. That is my point ramchop. One's sexuality is all about what they CHOOSE to be.

There is an over-riding choice there I'll grant you that. You don't buy the nature vs nuture debate? If eating vegemite was a mortal sin would Gomi girl's brother (who dislikes the stuff and could easily refuse it) be morally superior than Gomi Girl who might succumb to temptation?

There is an underlying temptation there. Does the fact that you don't suffer from those urges (an assumption ) make you superior to those that do?

[GomiGirl]

Both religion and sexuality are very personal topics and each individual should be free to express his or her own opinions and live their own life within the laws of the society they live in...

People, we are not going to agree on this subject..

GG (the vegemite eating, heterosexual, ex-scientist, zen practicing, childhood sunday school attendee)

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Both religion and sexuality are very personal topics and each individual should be free to express his or her own opinions and live their own life within the laws of the society they live in...

People, we are not going to agree on this subject..

GG (the vegemite eating, heterosexual, ex-scientist, zen practicing, childhood sunday school attendee)

You know the only thing I don't do of the above is eat vegemite. I substitute spam for that one.

[bluepxl]

And if God is a compassionate entity, why is a murderer who has accepted JC as his saviour more likely to ascend to heaven than a lowly scientist who strives to cure some of the worlds diseases?

the gift and truth is open to all, regardless of what they have done in their life. no one is better than anyone just because of the things they have done, and by works no one can be saved. what makes the scientist such a better man? just because he hadn't killed anyone?

[American Oyaji]

Doesn't the scientific verison of "how the world was put together" differ from that of Christianity?

Not really. The Bible doesn't go into the details of atoms and molecules and such. In the old testament, even though the ideas of genes wasn't known, God prohibited relatives of a certain closeness from marrying. We know now that this is because that the intermigling of certain recessive genes can cause problems in the gene pool. Like I said, science describes how the world around us is put together. The Bible itself is more concerned about humanity. What you may be thinking of is the theory of the Big Bang. And you know what. There may indeed have been a big bang at some point in the universe. But what caused it? What was the spark? And if it had to do with matter coming to a certain density before it exploded. What was causing the pressure?

Another prophecy is the rapture of the true Christians from the earth. They will go to heaven and this will signal the beginning of the end of secular life on this planet.

This is a major problem I have with religion. What is a "true" Christian? And if God is a compassionate entity, why is a murderer who has accepted JC as his saviour more likely to ascend to heaven than a lowly scientist who strives to cure some of the worlds diseases?

Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God

In God's eyes, we are ALL human. We are his creation and we are to live by his laws. Christ didn't die to for some sins, but for all.

Matthew 5:28 - But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

This leads us to mean that the sin isn't just in the action. But in the heart and desire of the matter. If you've even thought about killing someone, you're just as guilty as someone who has done it.

Mark 7:21 - For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders

Now, under God's law. The penalty for sin is death. Not just death physically, but forever being separated from the Creator and cast out into a lake of fire and darkness. God is holy and cannot abide the presence of sin.

However, even though we are sinful, God has a plan to redeem us and to bring us back into a relationship with him. God became man in the form of Jesus Christ. Jesus is God in the flesh, born of a virgin (meaning she had not slept with a man to conceive. The Spirit of God cause the eggs within her to begin to form a baby without a man's help). This causes Jesus to be sinless. We are all born sinful because of Adam the first man, caused sin to come into creation. Since Jesus is not of the line of Adam, he doens't share in Adam's sin. Thus he was born sinless and he lived a sinless life.
And since he had no sin, he had no reason to be put to death. But since he is also God, his death covers all our sins. He paid the penalty for everything we have ever done or will do. Then he rose from the grave with all glory and power to show that death has no more power over man. He was transformed into a glorified body. (this is the same body believers will have after the rapture)

The only thing God asks us to do is believe and accept Christ as our saviour. And in doing so we attempt to live as Christ like a life as we can. And telling others the good news that there IS a life after a physical death.

As for a TRUE Christian. One who truly believes. If you tell someone that something is to hot to drink. But they try to drink it anyway only to realize that it's too hot. They didn't believe you. Same thing with Christianity. Those who decide to believe won't be the one's that got to eternity and find out the truth about Jesus. We believe now, and live our lives like we believe. Some people SAY they believe, but their lives don't reflect that at all. And who is to say who is a true Christian? Jesus. He knows his own. Some may be deceiving themselves and playacting. But God knows the truth.

Galatians 6: 7,8 -
7 Be not deceived]

The way I see it. You have a 50% chance that God is real and all this is true and there is a heaven and a hell. Or its all bunk and life ends when you die.
To accept the dominion of God and Jesus over my life and try to lead others to the truth and to live my life for the hope of eternal life is preferable to living it my way and finding out im gonna burn forever.

Also to turn down Christ's gift of salvation is to turn your back on God. And that is unforgiveable. That is the only unforgiveable sin.
Imagine fuedal Japan and you disrespect the Shogun. Your head is gonna get separated from your neck. Same thing with God. But worse. You will be separated from his love eternally without any chance of redemption and will burn forever.

[b] Matthew 10:28 - And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

Apologies for the childish dig at the end.

Apology accepted, Captain Needa!

But getting back to the main point.
No matter what happens in your life. You still have a CHOICE to do what you do. No one forces you except in cases of rape. Even with torture, one has a choice. Accept torture to death, or submit. Sucky choice, but a choice nonetheless. That is my point ramchop. One's sexuality is all about what they CHOOSE to be.

There is an over-riding choice there I'll grant you that. You don't buy the nature vs nuture debate? If eating vegemite was a mortal sin would Gomi girl's brother (who dislikes the stuff and could easily refuse it) be morally superior than Gomi Girl who might succumb to temptation?

There is an underlying temptation there. Does the fact that you don't suffer from those urges (an assumption ) make you superior to those that do?

Christians aren't perfect. Just forgiven. And we DO suffer the same tempations. But with the help of the Holy Spirit, we over come those urges. When we do succumb to temptation, we ask for forgiveness. A Christian is NOT to sin and keep asking for forgiveness. We are to attempt to live as pure a life as possible and to keep from sinning.
Everytime I see Mariah Carey I have to change the channel before I start thinking thoughts.
Christians aren't saved because we live good lives, but because of the faith in Christ. And in gratitude for the gift of life, we live our lives as pure as we can.

Religion is man's attempt to please God through his own design and rules i.e. The Catholic Church. The Catholic Church is NOT Christian. It is draped in so many rules and rituals from pagan religions.

Christ is God reaching out to man to save him before the end.

Sorry for the long post. But I felt it was important to answer all points.[/b]

[Big Booger]

according to the Bible, humanity is based on incest, yet today it is illegal???

ADAM + EVE = Children

ADAM+Children= INCEST

EVE+Children= INCEST

CHILDREN+CHILDREN = INCEST

[ramchop]

This leads us to mean that the sin isn't just in the action. But in the heart and desire of the matter. If you've even thought about killing someone, you're just as guilty as someone who has done it.

Back to the original issue. You say that homosexuality is a choice... now it seems that even thinking about licking the vegemite out of a man's bumhole (ick! ) is as bad as the act itself. You can certainly choose not to perform the act, but not all thoughts are as simple to avert as the flick of a remote control.

Anyway, looks like I'm destined to eternity in hell unless I change my views before the impending apocolypse. It is sad. I thought God was meant to be compassionate, but it seems he is more of a narcisist. More important to have people love him than to for them to follow his moral code (whether they have read it or not).

[American Oyaji]

Anyway, looks like I'm destined to eternity in hell unless I change my views before the impending apocolypse. It is sad. I thought God was meant to be compassionate, but it seems he is more of a narcisist. More important to have people love him than to for them to follow his moral code (whether they have read it or not).

Death or the Tribulation. Whichever comes first. But I hope the tribulation comes before your death because then you'll know the prophecy is true and you'll be able to turn to God even belatedly.

But then you'll have to face the pogroms and persecution that Jews and Christians will face. But you'll still go to heaven. Most likely as a martyr.

But remember. Going to hell is YOUR choice. Not God's.

Also, God is not above his own law. That's why Jesus died. All you have to do is accept the gift.

And as for loving God, If you love him, you will follow the "moral code" i.e. Christ.

[cstaylor]

according to the Bible, humanity is based on incest, yet today it is illegal???

ADAM + EVE = Children

ADAM+Children= INCEST

EVE+Children= INCEST

CHILDREN+CHILDREN = INCEST

I'll let GomiGirl cover my retreat on this one, but the only reproductive issue with incest is the possibility of dangerous recessive traits (like Hemophilia) coming out, because they're genetic ailments. The psychological factors... we'll, let's not go there.

[Big Booger]

Just stating a fact that according to the Bible, incest must have been the only way all those people were begetting each other.. I mean ADAM & EVE and the whole family must have been doing incest.

Adam and Eve must have exploited their children, and taught the children to exploit each other..

How else could it have happened? Unless, say "God" hopped into his magic bag, and whipped out another female or male, to mix into the gene pool. Well, they could have had relations with the animals, which would explain the likes of Osama Bin Laden..

[Neo-Rio]

Jesus taught in parables
Jesus is God
The authors of the bible were inspired by the word of God
So they wrote the bible to be full of stories and parables

Therefore....

Everything in the bible is not necessarily true, but is full of stories to convey a greater truth.

....which basically means, for everyone who reads it and tries to interpret it....

IT'S EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF!

[Taro Toporific]

Jesus taught in parables
Jesus is God
The authors of the bible were inspired by the word of God
So they wrote the bible to be full of stories and parables
Therefore....
Everything in the bible is not necessarily true, but is full of stories to convey a greater truth.
....which basically means, for everyone who reads it and tries to interpret it....
IT'S EVERY MAN FOR HIMSELF!

"_In_ _My_ _Father's_ _house_ are _many_ _rooms_..."
- John 14:2

[Neo-Rio]

You got that right.....

When Jesus first started preaching by the lake, didn't he say something akin to "The Kingdom of God is here!" or something of that nature.....?

WHY haven't the Christians noticed this VITAL bit of the Bible yet?

[American Oyaji]

Taro, the actual text is taken from

John 14:2 - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Not just rooms. MANSIONS. I'm looking forward to that.

Neo-Rio, you too are mistaken.

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In this case, AT HAND means soon. Not here. The phrase "at hand" is understood to be coming soon. Because when "here" is mean, "here" is used.

As for the "incest" at the beginning of the Bible. It was not a sin then.
And remember, at that time, people literally lived for hundreds of years, even up to the time of Abraham. And reproduction could take place over many years so, over 200 years, A man and woman could have a whole lot of children that travel all over the place. And those kids could have a whole lot of kids. One might not even have grown up with their neice who was a hundred to 2 hundred years their junior or senior.

Adam and Eve were perfect with perfect genes so that dangers of recessive genes was zero. As people, live, they damage themselves and their DNA with different practices such as drug use or deep free diving and exposure to too much radiation (sunlight) or starvation....or anything that takes the body outside its normal operational boundaries. Eventually, God gave the law to end such practices.

[ramchop]

I've always thought that science answers the question "How?" whereas religion is there to answer the question "Why?".

Here's a genuine question for you A.O.

Why did God make the earth and all it's inhabitants?

[Neo-Rio]

Not just rooms. MANSIONS. I'm looking forward to that.

Neo-Rio, you too are mistaken.

All I know is that I know nothing.

Here's a hint where the kindom of heaven and all it's mansions are..... they're in your head. You haven't seen them anywhere other than there, and they exist only there.
(kinda why the rich have trouble entering the kingdom of heaven, because they look for happiness in material goods - rather than in the life God has given them)

Matthew 4:17 - From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.

In this case, AT HAND means soon. Not here. The phrase "at hand" is understood to be coming soon. Because when "here" is mean, "here" is used.

Well considering Jesus spoke in parables.... I'm interpreting it to mean here, rather than soon. I mean, this is an English translation of the original after all.
Once understood like that, then most of the rest of what Jesus says makes perfect sense, rather than confusing riddles.

Adam and Eve were perfect with perfect genes so that dangers of recessive genes was zero. As people, live, they damage themselves and their DNA with different practices such as drug use or deep free diving and exposure to too much radiation (sunlight) or starvation....or anything that takes the body outside its normal operational boundaries. Eventually, God gave the law to end such practices.

I agree. Call it divine punishment if you like the parables in the Bible... to the rest of us, it's called pain through change... or evolution.

God created everything, and thought it was all good. Our only mistake through original sin was to try to differentiate everything into good and bad.
(If I hear "Why does God allow all this suffering in the world?" ever again, I am going to scream.)

[bluepxl]

Incest is a legal term. At the time the only law that we have record of is not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When there are only two people in the world, there is little need of law. In addition, even legally they did not commit incest because they were not born of the same physical parents, but created separately by God. The first record in the Bible of laws against incest is in Leviticus 18. Even the instances in Genesis (probably the children of Adam & Eve, Abraham, Reuben, Judah, especially Lot) generally do not state a condemnation of the practice. Until it became law it didn't become illegal. Nowadays we have the added consideration of inbred genetic mutations which was not a problem for Adam & Eve and their offspring.

[American Oyaji]

Here's a hint where the kindom of heaven and all it's mansions are..... they're in your head. You haven't seen them anywhere other than there, and they exist only there.

The mansions are in heaven. And it's called faith. We believe that the words Jesus spoke are true. And we take it at face value.

Well considering Jesus spoke in parables.... I'm interpreting it to mean here, rather than soon. I mean, this is an English translation of the original after all.
Once understood like that, then most of the rest of what Jesus says makes perfect sense, rather than confusing riddles.

Actually you mistaken again. Everything Jesus spoke about was not a parable. And many theologians and language scholars translate this as soon. The reason I know this is because I have about 10 different versions of the Bible on my comp. None of them translate it as "here".
And when Jesus spoke parables, they were in anectdotal form. Meaning in the form of a story. The beginning sets up a character and details the actions of the character, and the ensuing result.

BTW....The original sin was disobedience. God said not to, and Adam did it anyway.

I've always thought that science answers the question "How?" whereas religion is there to answer the question "Why?".

Here's a genuine question for you A.O.

Why did God make the earth and all it's inhabitants?

Like I said before. Religion is man's attempt to please God by man's own methods, which are patently flawed.

Christianity is a relationship with God.

As to why he created the earth? I don't know. I am glad to exist. I plan to ask Him when I get to heaven. But in the mean time, I will live my life according to his will.

bluepxl....good points. Thanks.

[Neo-Rio]

Nowadays we have the added consideration of inbred genetic mutations which was not a problem for Adam & Eve and their offspring.

Cloning defeats the purpose really. People breed to allow their genes to mix, pick the best features, and create a new human being to continue human life on this planet. When you clone somehting, you take away the evolution part of it - therefore defeating the purpose of reproduction anyway. Same thing could be said when two people who are genetically close.... there is no point to it because they have all the similar genes already.

And one other thing......

John 14:2 - In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Not just rooms. MANSIONS. I'm looking forward to that.

So you're just doing God's will in the hope of getting something.
Sounds like you "love" him a great deal.

[ramchop]

And for the record. I have never met a TRULY happy homosexual. Says something, doesnt it?

Digging back in the thread a bit here.

It may say something, but I'm not sure what.


Some of the happiest looking people I've seen are retarded. The closest thing one of these retard's gormless smiles that I've witnessed was the smug know-all smile of someone with a microphone espousing the virtues of Christ. Says something, doesn't it? :P

[GuyJean]

And for the record. I have never met a TRULY happy homosexual. Says something, doesnt it?

It may say something, but I'm not sure what.
Some of the happiest looking people I've seen are retarded.

[bluepxl]

So you're just doing God's will in the hope of getting something.
Sounds like you "love" him a great deal.

we don't and are not capable of loving God the way we should to begin with. AO didn't claim such a thing either. why not look foward to heaven?

[Neo-Rio]

we don't and are not capable of loving God the way we should to begin with. AO didn't claim such a thing either. why not look foward to heaven?

You're right... we're all just jerks anyway.

[Big Booger]

Incest is a legal term. At the time the only law that we have record of is not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. When there are only two people in the world, there is little need of law. In addition, even legally they did not commit incest because they were not born of the same physical parents, but created separately by God. The first record in the Bible of laws against incest is in Leviticus 18. Even the instances in Genesis (probably the children of Adam & Eve, Abraham, Reuben, Judah, especially Lot) generally do not state a condemnation of the practice. Until it became law it didn't become illegal. Nowadays we have the added consideration of inbred genetic mutations which was not a problem for Adam & Eve and their offspring.

I was just pointing out a fact that adam and Eve banged their children. Now taken into context of today's values that is repulsive for most, and in fact, quite illegal in many cultures, societies.. etc..

I think you got a little confused about what I was saying, I never said that adam and eve committed incest with each other.. I said, they did commit incest with their kids... they had to.. no other explanation.

Now whether that fits your bill or not is not for me to judge, it is a fact. According to the Bible, Adam and Eve reproduced through incest, that or their children did...


One other thing, how did Noah fit all those damn creatures in that boat..?? I mean considering every variation of species known today, and even those unknown, that boat must have been the size of a country if not larger, and what about the insects??? Did he actually capture 2 of every insect and put on the boat?


Now on to so more contradictions of the Bible:

But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Gen.2:17

VS

And all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years and then he died. Gen.5:5


Another one:
And God made the beasts of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And God said, "Let us make man in our image, after our likeness." Gen.1:25-26 [Man was made after the beasts]


VS

And the Lord God said, "It is not good that the man should be alone..." And out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam. Gen.2:18-19 [Man was made before the beasts]

Another ONE:

Thou shalt not kill. Exod.20:13

VS


Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, "Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbor." Exod.32:27


There are many many contradictions in the Bible... which one could argue would be natural if they were contradicitions from say a different book of the bible, but these come from within the same book, exodus, Genesis, and so on..

[bluepxl]

I was just pointing out a fact that adam and Eve banged their children. Now taken into context of today's values that is repulsive for most, and in fact, quite illegal in many cultures, societies.. etc..

I think you got a little confused about what I was saying, I never said that adam and eve committed incest with each other.. I said, they did commit incest with their kids... they had to.. no other explanation.

actually, no, they didn't.