Designing a Network with Macs and PCs

[mr. sparkle]

Now I've done it. I'm helping out a friend who owns a major post house. His good friend owns a catering company and it's HUGE. They ordered a bunch of Macs, but also have PCs. I am going into a meeting tomorrow to find out their needs.

I'm thinking of having a main computer to run the network. This would be a Mac running OS X server. I'm thinking a site license so she can add as many Macs or PCs to the network with no additional cost.

Here lies the rub. She is relying heavily upon Outlook and Entourage and wants to integrate that into her Mac and PC workflow. She also wants to "monitor" her employees emails and chats. I'm thinking that the only thing that can handle that well is MS Exchange. Will that run on OS X server?

Any other tips on how to design this network? I don't know what she has existing right not, but she said she has everything already "hard wired".

Too bad, I was going to suggest a wireless network based on Airport Extreme.

What would you network guys do? I'm a bit lost. Remember, I am a video geek. Having PCs and Macs play nice-nice in an office environment sounds like a reasonable challenge, though. I think it can be done if you throw enough dough/time at it. I think all of her new Macs will have Parallels installed so anyone can run XP on that rig in a pinch.

Looks like I may need a freelancer that can set up her e-mail stuff. Snooping on company email is something out of my realm of expertise.

Time to surf the web on this topic.
An alternative is to run Macs on a PC network.

One more thing. I have a small wireless network set up in my apato with Windows XP running on a PC also running on my iMac. I also can run my G3 BW, G4 Laptop and iMac in Mac "mode" as well. They happily share devices. I hope it's not much harder than that. It was not too difficult to get running here anyway.

[GuyJean]

Time to surf the web on this topic...

Yeah, I'm not sure.. I've only ever created Mac networks.. I've shared files with Windows but nothing like monitoring Outlook or chatrooms.. Good luck!

You might try posting this here:
http://macosx.com/forums/networking-compatibility/

or poke around this site..
http://www.macosxhints.com/search.php?query=windows+network&mode=search&type=all&keyType=all

Seems like a helpful forum..

GJ

[FG Lurker]

Oh shit, where to start. This is a massive project. If you can extract yourself from it and introduce a company experienced in such work that would be the best thing to do.

A couple of comments though:

a) Wired is the only way to go for an office network, especially one that has more than a few computers on it. Wireless is very limited in its performance for larger networks and is too problem-prone for office use.

b) If she needs Exchange then Windows Server is your only option. This also means setting up a Windows Domain with Active Directory. In the days of Windows NT it was possible to fudge your way through a domain setup but this is not possible with 2000/2003 as it is much more complicated. Hardware-wise you are looking at a minimum of two servers, likely at least 3. Depending on the network size and workload it could be more.


I suggest going in and talking to them, making lots of notes, and then going to your friend and saying, "Man, this is way beyond what I thought it would be, I think she needs more experienced help." Alternatively if you can hire someone to do the work and you take a cut...that would be even better.

[mr. sparkle]

Oh shit, where to start. This is a massive project. If you can extract yourself from it and introduce a company experienced in such work that would be the best thing to do.

A couple of comments though:

a) Wired is the only way to go for an office network, especially one that has more than a few computers on it. Wireless is very limited in its performance for larger networks and is too problem-prone for office use.

b) If she needs Exchange then Windows Server is your only option. This also means setting up a Windows Domain with Active Directory. In the days of Windows NT it was possible to fudge your way through a domain setup but this is not possible with 2000/2003 as it is much more complicated. Hardware-wise you are looking at a minimum of two servers, likely at least 3. Depending on the network size and workload it could be more.


I suggest going in and talking to them, making lots of notes, and then going to your friend and saying, "Man, this is way beyond what I thought it would be, I think she needs more experienced help." Alternatively if you can hire someone to do the work and you take a cut...that would be even better.

Lurk and Pongi,
Thanks for the wake up call. I think I'm gonna bail on this one. It sounded easy at first. I mean, I can set up a network with Macs and PCs so they can share printers and stuff. But you guys are right. This is out of my realm of expertise.

Also the fact that the network cannot run exchange on OS X is probably a deal breaker.

[mr. sparkle]

Lurk and Pongi,
Thanks for the wake up call. I think I'm gonna bail on this one. It sounded easy at first. I mean, I can set up a network with Macs and PCs so they can share printers and stuff. But you guys are right. This is out of my realm of expertise.

Also the fact that the network cannot run exchange on OS X is probably a deal breaker.

Crap. The client talked me into doing job. She's dropped the requirement for running Outlook and Entourage. She's going with solid OS X Mail and iCal. I think I may be able to handle this now. Let me think on it. And yes, I need the dough.

She's ready to buy an Xserve and a site license of OS X Server.

[Charles]

She's ready to buy an Xserve and a site license of OS X Server.

XServe comes with an unlimited OS X Server license.

If you get in a jam with win/mac interoperability, MacWindows will probably have any info you would need.

[American Oyaji]

She's ready to buy an Xserve

Oh shit son!!! That's what I'm talkin about!!!:cool:

Xserve is pretty simple to set up and interoperability between macs and pcs will be a whole LOT easier to deal with than the windows 2003 server.

Unfortunately, my experience with xserve lies at OS X.2.8

[mr. sparkle]

XServe comes with an unlimited OS X Server license.

If you get in a jam with win/mac interoperability, MacWindows will probably have any info you would need.

Hey Charles,
Yeah, I found that you get a free unlimited license out when researching this last night. Very cool. The client was happy to hear this.

Turns out there is to be but a single PC on the network, and this is only for inputting entries into QuickBooks. The only reason she wants to use a PC is because she does not want this cheap, new Dell she has on hand go to waste. I'm going to try to talk her into getting rid of it and use a Mac Mini for that.

On another note, I'm both terrified and excited about this job. I'm terrified that I will crash and burn, but excited that the client seems to be willing to give me a shot as long as she gets the features she wants. That's OK, though. I spied a couple of books that will help me deploy but there is a learning curve which involves stuff I need to have a deeper knowledge of anyway.

As a Trainer and budding Mac Tech for the Film Biz, I will put myself among the elite here in LA, and for that, I can charge more dollars.

Trying to put a positive spin on the whole deal, and I think it will be challenging yet rewarding.

OS X Server 10.5 is going to be fantastic. If only they'd come out with that at MWSF, it would make my job much simpler.

[Mulboyne]

I can't help you with any of the technical challenges you now face but I think there is one thing you might have to consider.

If you set everything up and, after some teething problems, everything works well, who will your client go to when there is a problem in the future? Are you agreeing to be the troubleshooter in perpetuity? Your other work responsibilities will mean that you probably can't offer unconditional support so you should document your work and make sure that someone else knows how to deal with anything that might crop up later.

[Charles]

OS X Server 10.5 is going to be fantastic. If only they'd come out with that at MWSF, it would make my job much simpler.

Yeah, I hope it ships sooner rather than later, but alas the latest dev builds are still looking rather rough and will definitely not be finished by MWSF. I'm hoping they ship before March when my Apple Developer subscription comes up for renewal ($500/yr ouch) so I can get one last free OS upgrade. I want to skip this upcoming year's fees and let it lapse.

But anyway, don't worry about the gig. You don't have to know everything, as long as you know how to find out anything you need. The most important thing you can do to maintain your image as an expert is to admit occasionally you don't know it all, if you always have some sort of answer, the client sometimes suspects you are making it all up. So when they ask you a question that you don't know the answer, just say "that's an interesting question, I'd like to research that a bit and get back to you."

I might make two suggestions though:
1. Get Apple Remote Desktop 3 for your personal CPU. With ARD, you can set up machines all across the network from your admin system, push updates to everyone, etc. It will make your life much easier, especially when you get support calls at home, you can just connect to them and take over their machine and drive their mouse while they watch.
2. Invest in extra drives for redundant RAID storage. From what I see in the 10.5 builds, you'll want extra storage even beyond redundant, rebuildable RAIDs, so you can use Time Machine backups. Personally, I'd even consider a tape backup system for backups that are stored offsite. Your systems could crash and burn every day and it would be only a minor nuisance if you have good daily backups.

Oh yeah.. one more useful site: AFP548.

[mr. sparkle]

I can't help you with any of the technical challenges you now face but I think there is one thing you might have to consider.

If you set everything up and, after some teething problems, everything works well, who will your client go to when there is a problem in the future? Are you agreeing to be the troubleshooter in perpetuity? Your other work responsibilities will mean that you probably can't offer unconditional support so you should document your work and make sure that someone else knows how to deal with anything that might crop up later.

Very good point. And thank you so much for stating something that's been in the back of my mind.

They know where I am with my editing stuff and I have stated that I will probably hand them off to a colleague in the future. The proprietors of this company are best friends with a major post house in Hollywood, so it could be a good foot in the door.

I think I have the option as to whether I want to be the middle man or not as far as future billing and responsibility goes. Networking Macs is probably another thing I should know anyway, whether in an office or post-production environment.

While freelancing at Apple I worked on a 10 seat SAN running video applications and networking Macs traditionally or via a SAN is definitely a good thing to be good at. Especially now, especially in LA.

Good thought though, and I should probably will think the whole thing through a bit more thoroughly with the above in mind.

I am still keeping the option open to bail on this whole thing, but I do want to be the hero as well as learn something new and valuable.

[mr. sparkle]

DP >

[mr. sparkle]

Yeah, I hope it ships sooner rather than later, but alas the latest dev builds are still looking rather rough and will definitely not be finished by MWSF. I'm hoping they ship before March when my Apple Developer subscription comes up for renewal ($500/yr ouch) so I can get one last free OS upgrade. I want to skip this upcoming year's fees and let it lapse.

But anyway, don't worry about the gig. You don't have to know everything, as long as you know how to find out anything you need. The most important thing you can do to maintain your image as an expert is to admit occasionally you don't know it all, if you always have some sort of answer, the client sometimes suspects you are making it all up. So when they ask you a question that you don't know the answer, just say "that's an interesting question, I'd like to research that a bit and get back to you."

I might make two suggestions though:
1. Get Apple Remote Desktop 3 for your personal CPU. With ARD, you can set up machines all across the network from your admin system, push updates to everyone, etc. It will make your life much easier, especially when you get support calls at home, you can just connect to them and take over their machine and drive their mouse while they watch.
2. Invest in extra drives for redundant RAID storage. From what I see in the 10.5 builds, you'll want extra storage even beyond redundant, rebuildable RAIDs, so you can use Time Machine backups. Personally, I'd even consider a tape backup system for backups that are stored offsite. Your systems could crash and burn every day and it would be only a minor nuisance if you have good daily backups.

Oh yeah.. one more useful site: AFP548.

Thanks Charles. I'm stoked to see your post. Thanks for your opinion on the release of OS X Server v.10.5. I was wondering if that was going to be a reality or not by MWSF which is about the time I will be deploying.

I think they are OK with me not knowing everything. But during the meeting, I drew a lot of pictures and made them understand how things work. I am going to get these two books.

http://safari.peachpit.com/0321357582

http://safari.peachpit.com/032136984X

So should I get ARD for the client as well? She has a small business, so should I go for the site license or the 10 client package?

Also, I am thinking about stuffing 3 drives into the Xserve. I will RAID 2 of them for storage and backup and leave one for the Main HD. Sounds right? Which RAID Level?

Nice Link too. Thanks.

Thanks man, rock on.

[FG Lurker]

Also, I am thinking about stuffing 3 drives into the Xserve. I will RAID 2 of them for storage and backup and leave one for the Main HD. Sounds right? Which RAID Level?

If you have three drives to work with then you have two choices to get some level of data protection with RAID.

Choice one is what you mentioned, leave the OS disk as a single drive and then use RAID for the data drives. In this case you would use RAID 1 to mirror the two disks. If you put in two 500GB data disks then you will have a total of 500GB of data space, not 1000GB.

Your other option is RAID 5. This is a RAID stripe with parity. With RAID 5 you need a minimum of 3 disks and you lose the capacity of one disk. A 3-disk RAID array will have a total size of "2 x smallest disk size". Usually you would put in disks all the same size of course, but if you put in one 250GB and two 500GB and then made a RAID 5 array you would have "2 x 250GB", 500GB of space.

A RAID 5 setup will give you a higher-reliability server as it means that two disks would have to crash before the server stopped working.

No RAID for the system disk + RAID 1 for the data disks will give you better overall performance because you would be keeping the system and data disks physically separate. Also, basic RAID controllers do not offer good RAID 5 performance (especially write performance).

Standard configuration for many servers is to have a mirrored system disk and a RAID5 array for data. The mirrored system disk is because most system disks do not need to be larger than a single hard disk. The RAID 5 is to allow the data drive to scale in size, perhaps with 5 disks or so. (Sometimes many more than 5, but as you add more disks the risk of multiple disk crashes increases...)

Hope this helps.

[Charles]

I think they are OK with me not knowing everything. But during the meeting, I drew a lot of pictures and made them understand how things work. I am going to get these two books.

http://safari.peachpit.com/0321357582

http://safari.peachpit.com/032136984X

So should I get ARD for the client as well? She has a small business, so should I go for the site license or the 10 client package?

Also, I am thinking about stuffing 3 drives into the Xserve. I will RAID 2 of them for storage and backup and leave one for the Main HD. Sounds right? Which RAID Level?

I've never seen those books but they are probably OK. Just make sure the client pays. I hate paying out of my own pocket for books like that.

Note that every MacOS X system comes with ARD client version, it's built right into the OS. You buy the ARD software license just for the admin package, the license for ARD determines how many systems your CPU can administer simultaneously. So if you want to do cool stuff like push applications on to every Mac on the net, all at once, you'd need a license for the number of macs you need to manage. If it's a small net of 10 Macs, just get that, but if you've got more than 10, you'll need the unlimited. ARD is only $499 unlimited, $299 10-user.

On the other hand, there are other ways to do remote administration on Macs, even using freeware apps like VNC. But they're a bit more difficult to set up (although the ARD clients in MacOS X user systems now has improved VNC support). Also you might not need remote administration beyond the initial setup, it might even be easier to set up one machine and then clone it to a portable FireWire drive, so you can clone the FW drive to the other CPUs.

I've never got my hands on an XServe, so I'm not sure what RAID capabilities it has. I think the XServe is intended for use with RAID 5, which would be fine, and leave it all as one huge partition. Drives are so cheap lately, I'd probably try to set up 4 drives as RAID 0+1 if the controller would handle it. But it depends somewhat on the read/write performance you need. Check the XServe docs when you get it.

[FG Lurker]

RAID 0+1 / RAID 10 (not the same thing, but reliability-wise equivalent) are not good to put into a file server IMO.

RAID0 increases performance at the expense of reliability. RAID0+1 and RAID10 are ways to improve performance while not having reliability that is worse than a single hard disk.

In certain types of servers this is useful and even desirable. File servers are not one of these types. If the file server is the only server on the network then reliability is even more important.

I'd stick with RAID1 or RAID5. If you have 4 disk bays to work with then a 3-disk RAID5 + hotspare would be ideal for reliability, although not as fast as a 5 or 6 bay setup that splits the system and data disks as discussed in my previous post.

[Charles]

AH SO DESU NE....

Sparkulu-sama,

One little word of advice: prior to signing any contracts, please do yourself a little favor and setup a bonafide limited partnership company et al just to be safe. If you go in there and TOTALLY BLOW THEIR NETWORK DOWN TO HAIL!!! and then can't it back up again, and the company cannot operate, then they'll frickin' sue your ass so fast dude. So its better to have a 'company wall' in front of you. Yeah, most likely the above worst-case scenario will not happen, but how much does it cost to get a business license in LA nowadays? Just be safe dude. I'd really hate to see anything really bad happen to you on a personal level.

Cheers!

You know, I once tried to do exactly that. I decided to start my own consultancy in LA, so I called up the appropriate City offices to inquire about the forms to fill out and what I was required to do. And immediately the clerk started SCREAMING at me, "YOU GODDAM CONSULTANTS! ALL YOU WANT TO DO IS AVOID PAYING TAXES!" and then he hung up on me.

So I went with Plan B: up-front contracts with lots of disclaimers of liability. Somewhere I have the all-time best Terms of Sale disclaimers ever, written by corporate lawyers, it was printed in tiny, faint gray type on the back of every receipt issued by the company I worked at. If you printed it regular size, it would have been 4 pages long. It saved our asses from lawsuits on multiple occasions. So I adopted it for my consulting work. Fortunately, I never had any dissatisfied clients who would need to be disclaimed. This was probably due to my clients who were always in total meltdown when they called me, I could not make things worse, only better.

But as a consultant, the bigger issue is managing customer expectations. You invariably get stuck in creeping featuritis, the client keeps adding more and more stuff they want. I've gotten stuck on a job like this where I did a fixed-rate 6 week contract, and they kept adding features so I ended up doing 12 weeks of work for the same money. That sucked. So be sure to get the initial specification CARVED IN STONE and make it clear that additional requests can only be handled once the core features are implemented, and it will cost extra.
For a lesson on this, I will refer you to a video on my website called "Managing a Network Consultation." Oh man is it geeky. It's from like 1990 but the basic rules still apply, you're trying to get them to PAY for stuff they think should be FREE. Your job is not to manage the hardware and software, your job is to manage their expectations about the hardware and software.

[mr. sparkle]

I should've listened to myself.
I should've listened to Lurker.

Today, I bowed out of the install job.

After breaking out all the Macs and placing them around the office, setting up the Server and getting ready to go I am ready to deploy, right? Wrong. I go in this morning and realize that I don't know where to begin. Even with a plan, I don't want to start banging together a half-assed network. I'll do more harm than good.

Why did I puss out? OS X Server is too extensible. It does too many things. It can be configured in so many ways. After reading through a good chunk of the Apple Training Series on OS X Server Fundamentals, I understood very little of it, and without a network and server to practice on, I knew I was in deep doo doo.

So, I was gonna hand off the maintenance contract anyway. Now, I am just getting the right guy in for them a bit earlier. More expensive, but the job will be done by someone who's done this many times. I begin to look online for a OS X Server consultant and find a really good guy (will speak on OS X Server at MacWorld) that is happy to take the job and run with it. He's said, "You're really doing the right thing. They sound ripe for server deployment and things go much smoother if they're set up properly from the get go." All of a sudden, I realize that it's time to bail and set up them from a guy they should've had all along. You know, expensive but worth it.

Sure I look like an dumb ass in the short run, but it's better to admit mistakes up front before the shit hits the fan.

I learned one thing. I have to continue to trust myself and turn jobs that are not furthering my career. Also, to listen to Lurker. Some of the time.

[FG Lurker]

[quote="mr. sparkle"]I should've listened to myself.
I should've listened to Lurker.

[...]

I learned one thing. I have to continue to trust myself and turn jobs that are not furthering my career. Also, to listen to Lurker. Some of the time. ]
You're going to make Chuck's head explode...

I'm sorry the project ended up being more than you were comfortable with. However it's great that you realized that and found someone to take care of them. Many (most!) people wouldn't have done that but would have struggled through and left the client with a semi-working network that would have cost a lot to fix.

All the best for 2007!!