Being an FG... in Canada!

[Tsuru]

Since there are quite a few people on here from Canada, I thought it would be a good idea to post this up to see the kind of responses we would get.

Ms. Tsuru and I are currently exploring the possibility of moving to Canada. Vancouver, B.C. to be more precise. She's already been there, I might go there in the near future. It's something that's come up in light of not yet having a whole lot of strings tying us to Holland yet, and from our point of view it looks like a very nice place to live, work and breed. We're a young couple, we haven't been stupid enough to actually buy a house here yet, and I'm in the early throes of my career as an aeronautical engineer. There seems to be a healthy amount of employment opportunities in the engineering field over in Canada, with demand likely to increase in the foreseeable future. House prices are quite reasonable (as in: not as completely ridiculous as in this part of Western Europe), and the place actually looks the part when it's not fogged-in or raining. There's a great big outdoors with some magnificent views, not to mention it's also not quite so fucking crowded.

We're looking for responses as to what it's actually like to live and work there, and how things like pension plans, social security, health care et al are stuck together in Canada. We would also like to know how Vancouver compares in terms of livability to places like Toronto and Montreal.

Any thoughts?

[emperor]

Vancouver would be the #1 choice of Canadian cities from (mostly Irish) friends who've gone over to work/travel/emigrate.
I've been considering going there for a year myself.

[james]

We're looking for responses as to what it's actually like to live and work there, and how things like pension plans, social security, health care et al are stuck together in Canada. We would also like to know how Vancouver compares in terms of livability to places like Toronto and Montreal.
Any thoughts?

have you considered scenic winnipeg, the "city of opportunity" located in the heart of canada's economic powerhouse - manitoba? i kid.. if however you like black flies and biting cold in the winter, by all means go for it.

my wife and i had been considering a move back to canada and were considering the greater vancouver area also. if you haven't already, mls.ca is a good way to get up to speed with housing costs and what your money will get you.

you couldn't pay me enough to live in or near toronto. being from ottawa, that was close enough for me.

montreal is a nice city with a lot of charm, just remember you'd be living in quebec though and things there are done a little differently. if i'm not mistaken, quebec has its own separate immigration department, so moving there directly could be a bit of pita. how's your french? montreal as a city is very bilingual.

if you're in aerospace, definitely something to consider however. if you're at all familiar with the political situation in canada, then you'll know that the federal government likes to pander incessantly to the whims of quebec and as a result many contracts for aerospace (bombardier et al) end up being given to quebec based companies, many, if not most of which are located in montreal.

health care.. i've been away too long to know exactly what's going on there, but it's been basically underfunded and as a result, wait times for elective surgeries, MRIs etc can be excessive. so it's good when you finally get in but be prepared to wait. regular hospital visits can have you waiting and in some areas it's hard to find a gp. results vary by province and it's a hot political topic now. many canadians who can afford it will make a trip south of the border and get served in the u.s. a sad state of affairs really.

don't know much about the cpp (canadian pension sca^H^H^H plan) except that there is a reciprocal agreement with japan. so if you've been in japan and paying into it here, what you've been paying may be transferrable. regardless, i don't expect any government to cover my retirement as i fully expect the funeral boomers to bankrupt it within the next 15-20 years.

[Takechanpoo]

good news
never come back to Chrysanthemum country.

[Doctor Stop]

In one hyphenated word: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grow-op

[james]

good news
never come back to Chrysanthemum country.

? to whom is this comment directed?

[Takechanpoo]

of course to Tsuru, not to you.

[Tsuru]

have you considered scenic winnipeg, the "city of opportunity" located in the heart of canada's economic powerhouse - manitoba? ]First of all, thanks for your reply.

The climate is not much different from Amsterdam actually... only the rainfall is a little more unequally distributed throughout the year.

my wife and i had been considering a move back to canada and were considering the greater vancouver area also. if you haven't already, mls.ca is a good way to get up to speed with housing costs and what your money will get you.

I had found some other real-estate sites, but this one is easily the most comprehensive. You actually have to try pretty hard to get less than the maximum of 500 search results in the most popular categories! *bookmarked*

you couldn't pay me enough to live in or near toronto. being from ottawa, that was close enough for me.

Noted

montreal is a nice city with a lot of charm, just remember you'd be living in quebec though and things there are done a little differently. if i'm not mistaken, quebec has its own separate immigration department, so moving there directly could be a bit of pita. how's your french? montreal as a city is very bilingual.

if you're in aerospace, definitely something to consider however. if you're at all familiar with the political situation in canada, then you'll know that the federal government likes to pander incessantly to the whims of quebec and as a result many contracts for aerospace (bombardier et al) end up being given to quebec based companies, many, if not most of which are located in montreal.

The biggest Canadian aerospace-related companies, CAE and Bombardier are headquartered in Toronto and Montreal respectively. But if I really think about it I don't think I could live in either, knowing our kids could be growing up in a much nicer city somewhere else. I even think I'd rather make a little less money but live in Vancouver. Plenty of ops jobs at the airport for starters, lots of pilot training going on at YVR as well, not to mention the heaps of smaller consulting firms downtown.

health care.. i've been away too long to know exactly what's going on there, but it's been basically underfunded and as a result, wait times for elective surgeries, MRIs etc can be excessive. so it's good when you finally get in but be prepared to wait. regular hospital visits can have you waiting and in some areas it's hard to find a gp. results vary by province and it's a hot political topic now. many canadians who can afford it will make a trip south of the border and get served in the u.s. a sad state of affairs really.

We're having the same problem in Europe as well... lots of Dutchies go to Germany, Belgium and even places like Portugal and Switzerland to get treatment. A lot of insurance companies even specifically cover treatment abroad.

don't know much about the cpp (canadian pension sca^H^H^H plan) except that there is a reciprocal agreement with japan. so if you've been in japan and paying into it here, what you've been paying may be transferrable. regardless, i don't expect any government to cover my retirement as i fully expect the funeral boomers to bankrupt it within the next 15-20 years.

That could be a tricky one. Canada is only slightly more populous than Holland, but the income distribution is completely different. I suppose it wouldn't hurt looking into private equity firms to provide sufficient redundancy. I guess even building a pension in Euros with a Dutch private bank would be an option... when it comes to long term investments there's nothing better.

good news
never come back to Chrysanthemum country.

Au contraire, my poorly-endowed friend.

If you would take a moment and carefully examine a map of the world, you would find that Vansterdam is actually closer to Japan than Amsterdam. So given that and the fact that flights from the Canadian west coast to Japan are usually a lot less expensive than from Western Europe, I can predict that if we were to make the move, old Nippon would see a lot more of us.

[Greji]

good news
never come back to Chrysanthemum country.

When are they going to revoke your visa arirang-chan?

[sillygirl]

When are they going to revoke your visa ARIRANG-CHAN?

Urk, read that as 'orang-utan'...

...*mutters to self* must go to opticians...

[Greji]

Urk, read that as 'orang-utan'...

...*mutters to self* must go to opticians...

By comparing them to Takepupu, you have seriously insulted 'orang-utan's around the world!

[Jack]

Vancouver house prices are as high or even higher than in Japan. Do not kid yourself thinking that housing is cheap. Employment opportunities in Vancouver are rare. The reason with the disconnect between house prices and employment opportunities is the Chinese from Hong Kong which have immigrated or bought a second house in Vancouver without having the need to work. As a result of this demand for houses and the scarce land (Vancouver is mountainous like Hong Kong and Japan) the prices are the highest in Canada. Toronto house prices are not cheap either.

In Japan anyone can find work. Not so in Canada. For every job availability, you might get 50 or 100 applicants.

If you like rain go to Vancouver. It rains a lot there and you might go 45 days or more without seeing blue sky.

The best city in Canada for work is Toronto. The best city for fun and lifestyle is Montreal.

I believe you are in the aerospace field or you seem to be knowledgeable in that sector. Montreal is the aerospace capital of Canada with Rolls Royce, GE and Pratt & Whitney making jet engines around the city. Bombardier building aircraft, Bell Helicopter for helicopters, CAE building flight simulators and including two of the top four landing gear makers are in Montreal.

[Takechanpoo]

no more off topic!

[james]

is pretty spot on with what he's said about the employment scenario and the housing situation.

in your position, i would definitely consider montreal. is there something holding you back from going there as opposed to hong couver?

[Tsuru]

Vancouver house prices are as high or even higher than in Japan. Do not kid yourself thinking that housing is cheap.

The fact remains that compared to the western part of Holland, it is. If I wanted to buy a family home here in Holland as close to where I would be working in Vancouver, for the same kind of money I could buy two suburban family homes and an apartment downtown to boot. If you would consider moving to Europe the real-estate prices here would give you a heart-attack. For young professionals wanting to start a family here it's either having two people paying the rent/mortgage or sitting in traffic for three hours every single day.

Employment opportunities in Vancouver are rare. The reason with the disconnect between house prices and employment opportunities is the Chinese from Hong Kong which have immigrated or bought a second house in Vancouver without having the need to work. As a result of this demand for houses and the scarce land (Vancouver is mountainous like Hong Kong and Japan) the prices are the highest in Canada. Toronto house prices are not cheap either.

In Japan anyone can find work. Not so in Canada. For every job availability, you might get 50 or 100 applicants.

Now that I find very hard to believe. I would be surprised if there are even that many engineers in the whole of B.C. out of a job in the first place. Are you by any chance in IT and did you leave for Japan when the bubble popped? Unemployment for my NOC type (2146) is even lower than where I am today and the prospects are good.

http://jobfutures.ca/noc/214.shtml

Specific for B.C.: http://www.workfutures.bc.ca/profiles/profile.cfm?noc=214&lang=en&site=graphic#emp_prosp

If you like rain go to Vancouver. It rains a lot there and you might go 45 days or more without seeing blue sky.

The problem with Vancouver as far as weather goes is its location. Close to mountains, where moisture-rich air from the sound gets pushed up the mountains and cools down, and the water vapor in it condensates into clouds and creates rain/snow. But as I said, as a Dutchman I am no stranger to a bit of rain, and the climate is eerily similar to that of a city like Amsterdam. Besides, if you drive across the Fraser river and choose to live south of the river/airport in a place like Richmond it already gets noticeably better.

The best city in Canada for work is Toronto. The best city for fun and lifestyle is Montreal.

I'm looking for neither. I'm looking for the best place to settle.

I believe you are in the aerospace field or you seem to be knowledgeable in that sector. Montreal is the aerospace capital of Canada with Rolls Royce, GE and Pratt & Whitney making jet engines around the city. Bombardier building aircraft, Bell Helicopter for helicopters, CAE building flight simulators and including two of the top four landing gear makers are in Montreal.

My primary interests in aerospace are the operations and training sectors, not manufacturing. YVR is easily the busiest airport in the Pacific Northwest with a lot of different airlines operating there, and would be my best bet of getting started there. Sure, it's not as big as YYZ but it sure as hell beats the pants off a place like Calgary or Edmonton, even SeaTac. Also, don't forget that good old Boeing is just across the border, north of Seattle.

Thanks for the input so far, I am collecting every bit of info I can find. All I'm looking for is a better deal than we're getting right now in Holland, primarily livability, real-estate and immigration wise. The Dutch government seems to be determined to keep increasing the shit they give hard-working people whose spouse happens to be foreign. We're also considering Germany and Belgium as my rights as an EU citizen on that front are actually better than those my NL passport affords me in Holland. Admittedly, we are getting more desperate to find a way out every single month.

is pretty spot on with what he's said about the employment scenario and the housing situation.

in your position, i would definitely consider montreal. is there something holding you back from going there as opposed to hong couver?

Montreal is definitely on the list, but only if Vancouver is definitely no-go. Ontario and Quebec are a lot colder as well far as I can see.

[Jack]

Are you by any chance in IT and did you leave for Japan when the bubble popped? Unemployment for my NOC type (2146) is even lower than where I am today and the prospects are good.

http://jobfutures.ca/noc/214.shtml

Specific for B.C.: http://www.workfutures.bc.ca/profiles/profile.cfm?noc=214&lang=en&site=graphic#emp_prosp

I'm not in IT. I'm a senior exec something very related to your field. From what I'm hearing YVR may not be your place as far as career is concerned. Many companies do not locate in the YVR region because there is a shortage of ingineers. The job application ratio I was mentioning is not specific to a particular trade or profession, but for work in general. It's tough to find work in Canada. There are some places where workers are very scarce and in the Montreal region aerospace related workers are in high demand given the large number of companies that are concentrated there.

A very small house in Vancouver that may need serious renovation in an undesirable location might cost you CAD$800,000, and I mean a very small house. On the other hand, you would be hard pressed to find employement in an income range that would allow you to own that house.

You may have other motivation to live there and you could have a great lifestyle in YVR but the rain, the clouds, the constant whining of the people there, after a while will get to you. Then again I don't know how Holland is so...

PM me with specific questions and I'll give you more answers. I know quite a bit about training.

[Tsuru]

the rain, the clouds, the constant whining of the people there, after a while will get to you. Then again I don't know how Holland is so...

Not much of a change there then. Rain, clouds, people whining, with the only exception Canada is not as tightly packed as Holland, and the whining Canadians do most of the time isn't about how shitty having all those foreigners around make their lives and voting ultra-right wing or Christian is a good way of dealing with that.

Right now just about anything seems like a good deal... but rest assured: we are giving this some very good thought and a few months to let all the options sink in. It's not like our bags are packed and all we need is a destination for our one-way tickets.

[Kuang_Grade]

While I think its pretty well known that that the Vancouver/Seattle area goes through moderate earthquakes periodically, I think its less well known is that it apparently gets hit by a massive earthquake (8+) every 300-600 years...and the last big one (an estimated 9) was 300 or so years ago...And given there is a major fault line near by in the Pacific, the tsunami threat is sizable as well.

http://geoscape.nrcan.gc.ca/vancouver/earth_e.php

http://earthquakescanada.nrcan.gc.ca/zones/cascadia/strain_e.php

At the time of the next great earthquake it is expected that the accumulated compression will be totally released and that the outer coast of southern Vancouver Island will move up to 5 meters to the south-west.

Wikipedia on the last big one
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascadia_Earthquake

[Doctor Stop]

Employment opportunities in Vancouver are rare.

You don't know Jack, Jack:

In Western Canada, online recruitment also increased. British Columbia added 12 points, and continues to boast significant online job demand for workers in sales and service]
http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/google/index.jsp?ndmViewId=news_view&newsId=20070419005196&newsLang=en

Jobless rate in B.C. drops to another record low

But federal agency warns of looming labour shortage as Alberta wages out-pace B.C.'s

http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/business/story.html?id=7087c4c6-b291-4e27-b83d-15dabed7e56f

British Columbia as a province is expected to be over one million job openings short during the next 12 years, with a shortfall of at least 350,000 people in key sectors. Panic would be too strong of a term to describe the situation, but both the government and the businesses of the region are appropriately concerned.

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2007_03_22/canada/british_columbia_needs_350000_workers.htm

I'll leave debunking your real estate fantasies to someone else.

[Jack]

Doctor Stop,

I tend to use simple terms so that people like you can understand. But evidently even simple words when put together in a particular sequence are too difficult for you to unscramble the meaning.

Okay, let me put it to you this way. There are tons of jobs at Tim Hortons and the local McDonald's but if you can pay a house in Vancouver with those kinds of jobs then all the power to you. What I was saying is that Vancouver house prices are too expensive and the city does not have the high paying jobs to support such an expensive housing market which is created by the inflow of rich Chinese from Hong Kong. The high paying jobs are in Finance, marketing, lawyers, arts, head office senior executives, and so forth. Engineers and construction workers don't make too much money. When I am talking about high paying jobs I mean those earnings $250,000 a year or more. There are many accountants in Vancouver but the head office partners who make all the money are in Montreal or Toronto.

[Doctor Stop]

What I was saying is that Vancouver house prices are too expensive and the city does not have the high paying jobs to support such an expensive housing market which is created by the inflow of rich Chinese from Hong Kong.

1997 was ten years ago, Jack. Have you got any statistics to back up your claim?

The high paying jobs are in Finance, marketing, lawyers, arts, head office senior executives, and so forth. Engineers and construction workers don't make too much money.

Arts? You mean like painters, or the Liberal Arts in general?

http://realtytimes.com/rtcpages/20060112_labourshortage.htm

Another section of the site tackles common myths about construction work, such as one that construction work pays poorly. "Construction workers often earn more than university graduates, and the average construction worker's annual salary is higher than the overall national average," says the site. "If you start out in the construction industry as an apprentice, you can earn while you learn and avoid the student loan debts many college and university graduates face."

It says, "Whether you're a skilled construction worker or manager, you can earn up to six figures annually."

[dimwit]

As an aerospace engineer Vancouver is third fiddle to Toronto or Montreal, but I suspect that at least some component manufacturer are out in that neck of the woods. Vancouver has direct flights from both Kansai and Narita which is probably one of the reason my wife would consider moving there is well.

What Jack said about the housing market is true. Prices in Vancouver are Japan size high.

[Quote=Tsuru]Canada is not as tightly packed as Holland, and the whining Canadians do most of the time isn't about how shitty having all those foreigners around make their lives and voting ultra-right wing or Christian is a good way of dealing with that.[/quote]

The lower mainland (the area around Vancouver) is probably just as packed as Holland and the area outside Vancouver is ultra-right wing/Christian.

Not trying to discourage you as a number of people unfamilar with mountains tend to migrate there. Former premier of Bill Vander Zalm being one.


Good Luck whatever you decide.

[Tsuru]

The difference is in the reason people vote right-wing and the way politicians are dealing with it. The people that scare most of the voters into doing what they do and are causing most of the trouble are second and third generation immigrants from North-Africa, who all have Dutch passports. Immigration can't touch them, but the government it determined to throw its weight around and show these people they are doing something, making it all but impossible for hard-working people even from other EU countries, the US, Canada, Japan, etc. to settle and work here. It's hurting companies who want to hire foreign graduates, universities who want to attract foreign students, and of course the Dutch people who were stupid enough to fall in love with someone with a different passport. I am not as "Dutch" you might think- because my grandmother married a black immigrant (in the 1950s!) my familiy and given names sound quite exotic, and I don't exactly look like my parents grow tulips either.

The other reason is that the liberal and progressive country that I grew up in is fast seeing its famous liberties detroyed, things we are famous for like a liberal drug policy, same-sex marriage and euthanasia are now quickly being torn-down again by the Christian government, and the post-9/11-world has seen us giving up some important privacy rights.
Also, there's this stupid small-minded mentality here that if you're not prepared to fall in line and do like everybody else does, your life will be made exponentially more difficult by all the government red tape. Japan is not the only country where nails that stick out get hammered down. This country has no ambition.

Even my parents want out.

[Jack]

1997 was ten years ago, Jack. Have you got any statistics to back up your claim?


Arts? You mean like painters, or the Liberal Arts in general?

http://realtytimes.com/rtcpages/20060112_labourshortage.htm

The Hong Kong handover was in 1997 but even today many Hong Kong Chinese buy real estate in Vancouver. Open the South China Monring Post and you will see full page ads about condos in Vancouver.

Arts? I should perhaps have said performing arts like filmmaking, theater, concert production, music producers and so on. Yes some do live in Vancouver but most big ones are in Toronto or Montreal.

Are you done with useless arguments or I have to spell out everything in minute detail?

[Blah Pete]

Tsuru,
If I were you I would take as much vacation time as possible and check out Vancouver and some of the other cities mentioned. Talk to potential employers if you get a chance and shop your resume.

The worst thing possible wold be to make a jump to a new country, newlywed, stuck in job you don't want and a huge loan on an overpriced house.
Hey, that sounds like my situation in Japan...

[Jack]

What BlahPete says is true and to add to it, there is a huge shortage of qualified aerospace people in eastern Canada. The industry is booming and good people are in short supply.

[Tsuru]

Update:

One small, not slightly unimportant factor I thought of earlier today that would keep us (or at least me) from moving to the west coast of North America is the fact that hardly anything man-made there is over 100 years old. To put that in perspective: every city in the Netherlands where I've lived since I was born was at least 500 years old, and the city where we live right now (Leiden) goes back 2000 years.

Moving to a city so new and so devoid of history would definitely induce a severe case of culture shock for me at the very least. It's one of the very reasons I refuse to live in the new Dutch towns that were created on reclaimed land in the 19th and 20th centuries. No history worth mentioning other than the need to pour 1960s concrete.

It even shows when you look at the real estate... most family homes in Vancouver seem to be made of wood, while Ontario and Quebec offer more homes made from actual bricks with concrete foundations. In that respect, combined with the career opportunities the balance shifts more and more towards the other side of Canada. Besides, once we get there we could always decide to move further west.

So what about places like Montreal and Toronto?

[dimwit]

Vancouver, while it has a very North American skyline, has some older areas. North of Vancouver, Whistler have strict building codes and tends resemble a chatlet villiage in the Alps. Victoria is considerably older and has a very colonial Britsih feel around it.

That being said eastern Canada is considerable older. Quebec City is an ancient beautiful city (nice place to live for about 6 month of the year -the rest of the time it is cold as hell). Central Montreal is also old and as mentioned the center of the aviation industry. Winters do get cold there, and for many Japanese from subtropical climates this can be too much. Another factor is the distance from Japan and the lack of direct connects there. French language skills are important if not essential here.

Toronto has lost a lot of its lustre in recent years. Jobs are there, the city is older than anything on the west coast, the climate is moderate and there are direct connections to Japan, but crime, high taxes and overgovernment have sapped the vituality out of the place.

[Uhhuh35]

The other reason is that the liberal and progressive country that I grew up in is fast seeing its famous liberties detroyed, things we are famous for like a liberal drug policy, same-sex marriage and euthanasia are now quickly being torn-down again by the Christian government, and the post-9/11-world has seen us giving up some important privacy rights.
Also, there's this stupid small-minded mentality here that if you're not prepared to fall in line and do like everybody else does, your life will be made exponentially more difficult by all the government red tape. Japan is not the only country where nails that stick out get hammered down. This country has no ambition. Even my parents want out.

Christian government, my ass. Come on man why don't you just say it: "Mooslems are taking over and I want out." Man I figured you were gonna' leave, just not this soon. Do you ever think of staying in your own country and make it better? No of course you don't. Just like the hookers in Korea who want to get out and move to America, they don't care about their country either. Pathetic.
But seriously, I think Canada would be a good destination for you SooRoo. You'd fit right in. You can complain about America and take advantage of it's natural protection being just to our north. You know no one's gonna' invade America anytime soon.
And you know that AirBus is fucked too. Maybe you could apply at a Boeing subsidiary somewhere in Canada? Look into it, Boeing has a bright future.

Hehehehehe!

[Tsuru]

Christian government, my ass.

I was expecting this kind of reply would come up eventually from you when I started this thread, but I'm sorry to report that every word out of my keyboard in this thread is the goddamn truth. Since about 2000 many secular, social-democratic governments in Western Europe have been replaced with the right-wing Christian variety, and with Sarkozy about to be elected in France things are about to take another turn for the worse. These people will fuck everything up far worse than these mooslems ever could, even if they tried. As far as I know you're in the US, so I don't think I need to explain what I'm talking about.

I bet those muslim fundementalists will thank you for letting them believe the world revolves around them Thruth is however, that it does not. Perhaps for you it does, but not for me.

Case in point: I think it was in Toronto a few years ago that a Muslim community wanted to impose sharia, as in some neighborhood they had the majority of the vote. Thankfully we haven't had any of this nonsense in Europe and neither do I expect it will ever turn up, so if I would let this shit bother me I think I'd actually be considering moving to Japan at this point as Canada would clearly be too full of fundamentalist thugs to be an attractive place to raise a family, now wouldn't it?.

But what the fuck am I doing trying to make a fair point and explain this shit to an idiot like you. I predict just one or two sentences of this, if any, will make it into your next thundering rapefest of a reply. So remind us how your application with the armed forces is coming along instead!