Flying problems

[joshuaism]

During my surreal interlude at LAX, I told the officer taking my fingerprints that I would be writing about it all. "No doubt," he snorted. "And anything you'll write won't be the truth." link

Hmmm... I wonder if it's all a bunch of lies or not. But she wouldn't have had to write the article if she had lied in the first place. Hope she learned to start lying!

...it is better to say you are a tourist...

[Hawaiibadboy]

A smart mouth on an airplane is no reason to detain someone for terrorism. A no-fly list is horseshit. I wonder how many no-fly list people have been prosecuted for terrorism? If they are a threat, then why are they not arrested, booked, and tried?

And in all honesty, I don't think the next attack will come from the air... I think it will come from cells already in the US who are cooking up schemes to attack a ground target.

I actually agree with most of that. Except the totalitarian part.

I would not trade America even with its fuked-up growing pains.
for any other 2 countries combined.

[Hawaiibadboy]

Regarding the deported journalist: a law is a law, and I'm all in favor of enforcement of laws. But this law is controversial, and furthermore (read on..) breaking the rule is not necessarily supposed to result in denial of entry to the country.

The rule means that a person who would normally be completely free to enter the US without a visa for 90 days needs to get a special visa just because they plan to write an article. Why would the government impose such a rule? Obviously it's not an anti-terror measure. It's an anti-embarrassment measure. Rather pathetic coming from the "land of the free". The U.S. government wants the opportunity to pre-screen journalists and decide ahead of time whether they approve of what the journalist is planning to write about. The process involves $100 and several weeks of waiting time for the visa. This sounds more like China to me.

Further evidence: This link explains that the customs officer has the DISCRETION to let a reporter in without this visa, just "reminding" the reporter to follow the rules next time. What kind of discretion would be involved here that allows some visa-less reporters in scott-free, while others end up in detention for a day and deported, despite the fact that they broke exactly the same law? The decision is obviously going to be based on whether the customs agent agrees with what the reporter is planning to write about or not.

Does anybody know which other developed countries have journalist visas like this now?

Thats right pal "land of the free"

When Japan has to import an enormous amount of labor in 8-15 years ( due to the crippiling decline in the birthrate) a lot of bad elements will come with that labor.

Cant wait to see what the Ojisans knee jerk reactions will be? Whaddaya think? How will japanatopia be then? I mean there so good to outsiders now.

[Boris]

9/11 killed what 3000 people, look at the war in Iraq.. how many US soldiers have been killed? Afghanistan? How many civilians were killed? Should Americans be banned from traveling to any other country because of our warring behavior?

I hate how people use 9/11 to justify totalitarianism. Secure the pilot and cockpit area of the plane, and the terrorists won't get control of that airplane. It's nearly impossible to prevent all terrorism.. oh sure you may thwart quite a few, but eventually no matter how "secure" your airport is, if a terrorist is determined they will strike and there is nothing you can do about it. Homeland "security" is a total ruse to make people fearful and at the same time to give them something to trust to protect them.

Instead of inconviencing millions to prevent a couple dozen attacks, perhaps they aught to instead improve on existing strategy, make air travel more convenient instead of less, and employ armed undercover air marshalls on all flights to handle the threat firsthand.

A smart mouth on an airplane is no reason to detain someone for terrorism. A no-fly list is horseshit. I wonder how many no-fly list people have been prosecuted for terrorism? If they are a threat, then why are they not arrested, booked, and tried?

And in all honesty, I don't think the next attack will come from the air... I think it will come from cells already in the US who are cooking up schemes to attack a ground target.

I totally agree. From my own experience of flying to the US and scientific studies, I would say that this "enhanced" security is a whole bunch of useless crap compared to the measures before 9/11 as regards prevention of terrorism. Of course if I want to be stupid enough to tell that to the security officer odds are high that I would be detained even though I tell the truth and have no intention to ever bomb anyone (maybe France but just because we tend to be arrogant and give lessons to everyone abroad ).
I emphasize that I'm favorable to safety measure in airports but not to the extreme of the US way. It can only backfire when you show contempt to everyone.

The worst to my mind is the other countries just bow in front of the US (at least in EU). We (EU nations) could at least try to negotiate like reasonable adults instead of the "No this is too totalitarian, but ok, you're the US so yes, let's give away all the personal data of any visitors going or transiting to the US and allow you to store them for 40 years if not more while you don't allow us to do the same". The safety measure to fly from point A to B within Europe (or to Japan as a tourist in 2005) are as efficient as the american measures and less of a hassle.

Small anecdote: a brazilian friend told me that Brazil adopted the policy "I can show you what it is to be treated like scum" and have a special line for US citizens with fingerprinting and inquisitorial questions that last forever while other countries have the "normal" visa/passport check process. A bit childish if true but at least Americans know what others endure when they go to the US.

[omae mona]

I don't disagree with you Omae, but I think its less of a muzzle attempt (its not like anyone in the US really gives a shit what some foreigner writes anyway nor do they have to visit the US to write a bad story about the US) more of a work visa/taxation issue...and this is the forth or fifth time I've read (via casual reading) about this sort of thing happening over the last couple of years, so you'd think by this time, professional journalists would either figured that it is better to say you are a tourist or have the proper visas...The same sort of stuff has happened to rock bands, strippers, and people doing speaking tours in the US, so I don't why journalists should be some protected class.

KG, I see your point, but I think you are making the wrong comparison. Rock bands, strippers, and speaking tours involve actual labor in the US and getting paid locally for that labor. On the other hand, citizens of countries on the visa waiver program do not need a special visa to "conduct business" in the U.S. For example, businessmen on business trips to do sales, negotiations, research, or attending seminars do NOT normally need a B-1 work visa if they are staying in the U.S. for less than 90 days, nor is any of their income during this time taxable, I believe. A journalist, similarly, is conducting research when they visit the U.S. Their employer is offshore, they are getting paid offshore, and in all likelihood they are doing much of the actual writing when they return to their country. If journalism were treated like other business, there would be no work visa requirement.

I'd also point out that if this were simply a work / taxation issue, then journalists would simply use a B1 or B2 visa instead of the "I" visa for journalists. Also note that the I visa enforcement was revived as part of the Patriot Act, which is certainly not concerned with taxes.

I also disagree with the statement that "its not like anyone in the US really gives a shit". This was true until the current administration, which is obsessed with negative media coverage, if it has any chance of leaking back to the U.S. and affecting elections.

[Hawaiibadboy]

I totally agree. From my own experience of flying to the US and scientific studies, .

Scientific studies huh?

I was delayed for 3 hours in Hawaii while the tried to scare me.
While in Japan I was taken to the basement of Fukuoka airport and printed, retinal scanned, and dna swabbed. I wasnt told till arriving in Fukuoka that this was not negotiable.

I was never given anything to sign and was treated like a fukin felon.
When you play you pay....but in my book the price is MUCH higher in Japan then America.

[ichigo partygirl]

I went through immigration a couple of weeks ago in the late afternoon and came up against a queue that already extended beyond the barriers. More passengers disembarked and no-one seemed to know where to stand. immigration officials decided the best thing to do was to break off these new arrivals and steer them towards some new booths in another part of the terminal. This was spotted by people already in the queue who were incensed that they were not being dealt with first since and what ensued was an astonishing mini riot. If the new procedures do result in longer queues then they might want to tighten up on crowd control procedures.

I just came through yesterday and it was such a shambles. Three European and one Thai flight all landed at about same time and were processed through the same immigration control. There was a line of about 500-700 gaijin in the line for 3 foreigners counters and there was NO line for the 6 Japanese/re-entry counters. Some people were getting really pissed so eventualy they opened one more counter...sheesh. Also no air con... Oh well they let me back in at least

[GomiGirl]

[quote="ichigo partygirl"]I just came through yesterday and it was such a shambles. Three European and one Thai flight all landed at about same time and were processed through the same immigration control. There was a line of about 500-700 gaijin in the line for 3 foreigners counters and there was NO line for the 6 Japanese/re-entry counters. Some people were getting really pissed so eventualy they opened one more counter...sheesh. Also no air con... Oh well they let me back in at least ]
That is why reentry permits are fab!!! (Sorry that you had a long wait - happened to me last week in Hong Kong.)

[ichigo partygirl]

That is why reentry permits are fab!!! (Sorry that you had a long wait - happened to me last week in Hong Kong.)

yes i wish i had a visa so i could stay longer and get a re-entry permit...i was thinking evil thoughts about all the gaijin who simply walked through the japanese counter...lucky bastards

In saying that Frankfurt airport wasnt any better, i had to wait an hour there as it was packed and there was only a few non EU citizen counters open...evil thoughts about EU card holders...

[omae mona]

That is why reentry permits are fab!!! (Sorry that you had a long wait - happened to me last week in Hong Kong.)

GG, you realize that any day now, this privilege is probably going away? The deadline for Narita to implement the new fingerprinting requirements for foreigners is November. And according to sites like debito.org, all indications so far is that in conjunction with this change, all foreigners, regardless of re-entry permits, will be grouped together.

[Mike Oxlong]

When re-entering Japan, if you have a valid gaijin card you can use the lines for Japanese nationals, AFAIK. Just put it in your passport, and you're golden.

[GomiGirl]

Would you be mad if I told you I have an EU passport too? I dual citizenship in the UK. Makes life very nice when entering into any port in Europe...

[ichigo partygirl]

Would you be mad if I told you I have an EU passport too? I dual citizenship in the UK. Makes life very nice when entering into any port in Europe...

i like you to much to get mad. Plus i can get an Irish passport and therefore EU card if i just get my ass into gear.

[FG Lurker]

When re-entering Japan, if you have a valid gaijin card you can use the lines for Japanese nationals, AFAIK. Just put it in your passport, and you're golden.

Yes, until the new controls come into effect in a few months. Then all us aliens are in the same boat. I am NOT looking forward to coming back through KIX after Xmas.

[GomiGirl]

Hawaiibadboy - please crop your photos before you upload them. It is not nice to expect somebody else to do it for you.

[Hokuto-shinken]

If you hold a re-entry permit, can you hold on to your Gaijin Card when you leave the country? Also will this save you giving up your rights and having your photo taken and fingers scanned or don`t we know yet?

Don`t think I will bother visiting my family back home if I have to be scanned and photographed.

[omae mona]

If you hold a re-entry permit, can you hold on to your Gaijin Card when you leave the country? Also will this save you giving up your rights and having your photo taken and fingers scanned or don`t we know yet?

As far as I know, Immigration basically doesn't worry about gaijin cards when you enter or leave the country. The only exception is when you voluntarily surrender it upon giving up your residence and leaving Japan. If you have a re-entry permit, I assume that means you are a Japan resident (right?), so unless you're leaving for good you should be keeping your gaijin card.

Regarding fingerprints, it is very clear that all foreigners will have to get fingerprinted each time they enter the country. This is regardless of your residence status.

Personally, I don't mind the fingerprinting. They do the same in the U.S. What really bothers me is that (according to rumor) residents will no longer be allowed to go to the fast line for Japanese citizens. We'll have to go to the same line as temporary visitors, adding probably an hour of waiting each time we return to the country. This is different than the U.S., where non-citizen residents can still go to the citizen's area and get fingerprinted there.

[FG Lurker]

Personally, I don't mind the fingerprinting. They do the same in the U.S.

These days I don't think holding the US up as a standard for acceptable government behaviour is such a good thing...

[GomiGirl]

I always show my gaijin card going through immigration. Going out and coming back in. Also to the customs guys... I basically just put it inside the passport. I try to be a good traveller - it is just a way to get from A to B and not a place to prove anything. Why bother being a smart arse IMHO?

[Hawaiibadboy]

Hawaiibadboy - please crop your photos before you upload them. It is not nice to expect somebody else to do it for you.

Go take a pill and lay down or somethin'
The PM's are where your supposed to make snide/ignorant little quips like that either take a pill or do that next time.

although I'd prefer you just ignore me forever

[Greji]

GG, you realize that any day now, this privilege is probably going away? The deadline for Narita to implement the new fingerprinting requirements for foreigners is November. And according to sites like debito.org, all indications so far is that in conjunction with this change, all foreigners, regardless of re-entry permits, will be grouped together.

This is an interesting point. All indications are that they are still going to allow permanent residents to use the Japanese line. But, there are plenty of people like in Debito's area that say this is not correct. They say all FGs will get lumped together. Who knows, but they may try it at first, until somebody bitches.....

[omae mona]

This is an interesting point. All indications are that they are still going to allow permanent residents to use the Japanese line.

Thanks gboothe. That made my day - it's my first glimmer of hope!! Can I ask where you heard that? Golly gee wilikers, I hope you're right.

[FG Lurker]

This is an interesting point. All indications are that they are still going to allow permanent residents to use the Japanese line. But, there are plenty of people like in Debito's area that say this is not correct. They say all FGs will get lumped together. Who knows, but they may try it at first, until somebody bitches.....

Nope, it is very clear. Here is a link to the video that was posted by Taro earlier in this thread:
http://nettv.gov-online.go.jp/prg/prg1203.html

Taken from the video:
________________________________________________________

Exemptions are available for only the following:
1. Persons under the age of 16
2. Special status permanent residents
3. Those performing actions which would be performed by those with a status of residence, "diplomat" or "official government business"
________________________________________________________


"Special status permanent residents" is the status that is given to Koreans who were born in Japan because their families were dragged here earlier this century. It is not the same as the status of other FGs with PR.

The j-govt is consistent in their usage of "special status permanent residents" as well. For example, "special status permanent residents" are not required to carry their gaijin cards with them. The requirement for fingerprints on gaijin cards was also dropped for "special status permanent residents" long before it was for "normal" gaijin.

The j-govt may change their mind about who to take fingerprints and photos from, but as far as the official propaganda at this time it means ALL of us from tourists to people with normal PR.

[omae mona]

The j-govt may change their mind about who to take fingerprints and photos from, but as far as the official propaganda at this time it means ALL of us from tourists to people with normal PR.

FGL, I think we're talking about two different things. You are 100% right that we will be fingerprinted. The question is whether they will install fingerprinting and photo devices in the Japanese citizens' line so we can continue to go in that line.

By comparison, in the U.S. at all airports (that I know of), the U.S. citizens' line is equipped with photo and ID equipment, even though 99% of people going through the line don't need to use it. This way green card holders, non-citizen family members accompanying citizens (etc.) can go through the citizens' line and still get their fingerprints taken. I'm hoping Japan will do the same thing.

[FG Lurker]

The whole plan makes my stomach turn.

I tell everyone I can about it too and I hope to hell that tourism numbers to Japan drop further. If I didn't live here already there is no way I would come to visit after this takes effect, just as I refuse to enter the US.

Speaking of hell, when I see GWB there I am going to kick is scrawny ass. Bin Laden must be laughing his ass off at the changes he caused.

[Hokuto-shinken]

[Hokuto-shinken]

I have never protested about anything in my life, but do you think it would be worth it is everbody who is not happy with the new system wrote a letter the the MOJ?

This is their e-mail address if anybody wants to ask them any questions. info-tokyo@immi-moj.go.jp

Japanese PDF > http://www.immi-moj.go.jp/keiziban/happyou/biometric.pdf

[omae mona]

Why are you worried about what line you must use?

Because going to the visitors line will easily add 10+ hours of waiting inside Narita airport per year for me because of my travel. My average wait in the line for "Japanese Citizens & Re-Entry Permit Holders" is currently about 1 minute, I would estimate. Looks to me like the average wait in the visitors line is 30-60 minutes. That's why I am worried.

I think the main issue is that you must have your fingers scanned and photo taken.

Personally, I don't care. I understand the valid security reasons for doing this (at least for visitors), and the government already has PLENTY of copies of my photo already.

Some people might say it is only a photograph and two finger prints, but it is what it represents that is the most important thing. You are losing your freedom.

My freedom to travel will still be there. My freedom of speech will still be there. I'm missing your point about what freedom will disappear. What will you not be able to do that you're currently able to do (other than a voluntary hiatus on travel because you are offended by the system)?

I fail to understand the people who don`t feel disheartened about signing their rights away.

Personally, I consider myself somewhat of a civil liberties fanatic. I am very upset about warrantless wiretaps in the U.S. , for example because I believe they are undoubtedly used by the government for illegal purposes (e.g. (monitoring political opponents) that go counter to the idea of a democratic society . But I can't seem to get upset about fingerprints and photos - I fail to see how my freedom could possibly be curtailed by this.

[amdg]

I'm not upset by the fingerprinting, since they probably still have mine on file anyway (It was still a requirement when I first came). Same with the photos, there must be dozens of photos of me in govt. files all over japan, for licenses, etc etc.

The only thing that upsets me is the pretense that all this is for a safer Japan. Most terrorism in Japan is done by Japanese (Sarin Gas etc). Most negligent killings are done by Japanese too. Having records of all the good guys is not going to help much.

[Hawaiibadboy]

Pure comedy:poh:

The amount of foreigners is going to increase at least 5 fold in the next 15-25 years. The decrease in childbirth is having and going to have a bigger effect on this country than anything post WWII.

The Japanese Govt is laying down piecemeal a whole new set of rules and guideliness to counter what they correctly anticipate will be a dramatic increase in foreign brought crime, criminals and all the elements associated with such.

You are all so focused on your own feelings you can't see "the forest through the trees"

You do not have to be an Economist to know this country is in the beggining stages of a major transformation.

Terrorism? thats just a tag to confuse the drones. ( the majority of most countries unfortunately.