Hiring issues

[obear]

Hi there, i am posting this to any people out there who might be operating, or managing an english school.

i work at a small english school and have had to deal with issues related to bad hiring. I've come to realize that mere University degrees are either nto enough, or simply not relevant.

So i was wondering if other people out there might have some ideas as to waht i should look for to make the hiring processes a bit less directionless.

Right now, the director that i work for doesn't seem to have much fo a clue, and we've has some pretty bad hires, they looked good on paper, and sounded good on a skype interview but they absolutely sucked when it came doen to the actual teaching. I noticed someone else on the board was wondering about things like TESL or TOEFL or what ever. Are these sort of qualifications considered good at all?


does anyone know?

o..

[ttjereth]

Can't TESL and TOEFL certifications still be bought over the internet?

[samuraiwig]

Hiring without a face-to-face meeting and a demonstration is like throwing darts at a rotating board.

Are you hiring within Japan or from overseas? Do you set any tasks for them to complete and quiz them on during the Skype interview?

[Phoenix_stu]

Sorry, I can't resist this.

If you don't do anything.....At least hire someone that has better spelling capabilities than you. With all due respect, if you want to at least "look" legitimate, at least proofread what you write.

Hi there, i([color="Red"]I[/color]) am posting this to any people out there who might be operating, or managing an english school.

i([color="red"]I[/color]) work at a small english school and have had to deal with issues related to bad hiring. I've come to realize that mere University degrees are either nto([color="red"]not[/color]) enough, or simply not relevant.

So i([color="red"]I[/color]) was wondering if other people out there might have some ideas as to waht([color="red"]what[/color]) i([color="red"]I[/color]) should look for to make the hiring processes a bit less directionless.

Right now, the director that i([color="red"]I[/color]) work for doesn't seem to have much fo([color="red"]of[/color]) a clue, and we've has([color="Red"]had[/color]) some pretty bad hires, they looked good on paper, and sounded good on a skype interview but they absolutely sucked when it came doen([color="red"]down[/color]) to the actual teaching. I noticed someone else on the board was wondering about things like TESL or TOEFL or what ever. Are these sort of qualifications considered good at all?


does([color="red"]Does[/color]) anyone know?

o..

[samuraiwig]

Sorry, I can't resist this.

Indeed. And there's enough information generally available through websites (ESL or job/hiring related) and people with teaching experience that the following comments shouldn't be expressed by someone with hiring responsibilities...

I've come to realize that mere University degrees are either nto enough...was wondering about things like TESL or TOEFL or what ever. Are these sort of qualifications considered good at all?

[Iraira]

Indeed. And there's enough information generally available through websites (ESL or job/hiring related) and people with teaching experience that the following comments shouldn't be expressed by someone with hiring responsibilities...

Also keep in mind the fact that some teachers might shine in one environment and be a non-entity in another. I'm not saying that it is your school that makes a "looks good on paper" hire turn bad, but consider the problems that occur from the teacher's perspective. Also, if you are hiring from an overseas stock of people, consider that once they get here, their lives often change dramatically, and slowly they mutate into creatures that only somewhat resemble the wildebeasts that they once were, the wildebeasts that you chose to hire. And spel chek befor postin.

[samuraiwig]

Also keep in mind the fact that some teachers might shine in one environment and be a non-entity in another.

Yep. That's why I asked a couple of questions in my earlier post, in order to understand the situation better and give some practical advice. Orientation and training would be part of that.

If Obear is responsible for hiring teachers and doesn't understand the industry then the best starting point would be to do some reading and talking to people in the local area to get a grip on the basics.

[Big Booger]

Have them give you a mock lesson over skype. That should be simple enough, if they have video capabilities. Perhaps you have them prepare in advance 2 or 3 different styles of lessons focusing on different points of language teaching and evaluate them on that.

BUt I think you should have some sort of training periods, demo lessons where all new hires watch a seasoned teacher teaching a lesson, as well as supervising their first month of lessons with an evaluation period at the end of each to talk about the good and bad points of their lessons so that they can make an effort to improve on what they suck at and perfect what they are good at.

Some sort of performance bonus would also help improve their teaching. It doesn't have to extremely large, but you'd be surprised at what an extra 5000 or 10000 yen would do to improve teaching.

Give them something to work toward once you have committed to the teacher and they will generally improve.

[kusai Jijii]

My 2 yens worth...

Of course, there is another way of looking at this - and I am not suggesting that this necessary applies to your particular school, my comments are deliberately general...

However, it never ceases to amaze me when I hear owners of 'mom & pop' type eikaiwa schools complaining about the quality of shoddy teachers that they have had the misfortune of having hired when, in the final analysis, the job conditions are sooooo crap that only a total and complete fuckwad would want to work there in the first place.

Say for example, a school owner was 'offering' 2000 yen an hour, over say, a split shift of 4 classes a day starting at 9 and finishing at 4, 3 days a week, with no travel money or payment when students "no show", all of this on a "see how we go" basis where you were never sure how much work (and pay) you were going to get on a weekly, let alone monthly basis, what kind of "educator" do you think you are going to attract? On top of this, a fixation with "young, fresh, genki" people straight out of college (if that) doesnt tend to help the situation.

Simple moral of the story is this: 'pay penuts and you get monkeys' - which arguably is all many 'mom & pop' type eikaiwas want or require anyway.

[Iraira]

[quote="kusai Jijii"]My 2 yens worth...
Simple moral of the story is this: 'pay penuts and you get monkeys' - which arguably is all many 'mom & pop' type eikaiwas want or require anyway. ]

While I agree with everything you wrote, I thought monkeys or potassium-deprived individuals ate bananas, and elephants or people at ball games ate peanuts? Learn something new every day....

[Adhesive]

Sorry, I can't resist this.

If you don't do anything.....At least hire someone that has better spelling capabilities than you. With all due respect, if you want to at least "look" legitimate, at least proofread what you write.

Glad somebody brought it up, my fingers were twitching above the keyboard after reading his post, but I was able to restrain myself.

[Mulboyne]

When you need to hire someone you are simultaneously trying to attract good candidates while screening out bad candidates. One of my old bosses summed up the problem succinctly: "It's difficult to look people in the eye while you are kissing their arse".

Big Booger has give some good advice about how to help people fit with what you need. You can help yourself if you decide what you need in the first place and explain it to applicants. Who are you school's main customers? What kind of teachers have they liked before? If you don't know these answers then it is going to be difficult to find the right people because you don't have an idea of who the right people are.

Most people set out with the intention to do a good job but if they have no guidance then you are relying on them to reinvent the wheel for you. Some teachers rise to that challenge but most will not. Don't leave teachers to flounder; tell them upfront what you expect and make sure those are standards that you maintain elsewhere in the school. If everyone gathers round the water cooler and realizes that other people are slacking then they will often ease off as well. People generally perform well when the environment demands it but you must be prepared to help them meet your expectations. You can't just hire someone with the paper qualifications and say "Go to it".

[Iraira]

Sorry, I can't resist this.

If you don't do anything.....At least hire someone that has better spelling capabilities than you. With all due respect, if you want to at least "look" legitimate, at least proofread what you write.

Quote:
Hi there, i(I) am posting this to any people out there who might be operating, or managing an english school.

i(I) work at a small english school and have had to deal with issues related to bad hiring. I've come to realize that mere University degrees are either nto(not) enough, or simply not relevant.

So i(I) was wondering if other people out there might have some ideas as to waht(what) i(I) should look for to make the hiring processes a bit less directionless.

Right now, the director that i(I) work for doesn't seem to have much fo(of) a clue, and we've has(had) some pretty bad hires, they looked good on paper, and sounded good on a skype interview but they absolutely sucked when it came doen(down) to the actual teaching. I noticed someone else on the board was wondering about things like TESL or TOEFL or what ever. Are these sort of qualifications considered good at all?


does(Does) anyone know?

o..

Not to belabor this, but "Processes" should also be "process", as the hiring process involves many steps within itself, ne. I love my bong.

[Phoenix_stu]

Oh, how right you are. I don't know how I missed that. oops. Thank you

I miss my bong!

[kusai Jijii]

Learn something new every day....

Yes you do baby, yes you do.

P.S.
me likes the little titties on your avatar!

[Iraira]

me likes the little titties on your avatar!

That might be a really good pick up line.....

[obear]

Hey folks,


i might have replied to the wrong area earlier so please forgive me if this message is repeated.

First i want to apologize for the bad typing. i do infact have a word processor and a secretary which ensures that all formal business communications are clean and professional. However as many of you could probably appreciate, posting on forums is usually done quick and dirty. i guess i just never realized how dirty dirty could be. Many of my type o's stem from keys that are adjacent to one another being struck in the incorrect order. And i deliberately lowercase all my i's on informal communications.

But please let this not distract us from the real issue.

At our school, i have witnessed interviews over skype, but have never considered a mock lesson done over the web. i should add that i have only recently been given the opportunity to improve the hiring situation here, so here i am online, doing my homework.

i appreciate your feed back certainly, and i understand the situation for newly landed teachers, ( having been one myself). But what i am finding is that most people ( even the ones that interview well) are merely people out of school who can't find a job in their respective countries, or people who are merely trying to finance their extended vacations here in Japan.
Ironically, one of our best teachers doesn't even hold a degree! We went through a lot of trouble to keep him in the country when we could have easily hired a replacement but in the end he was well worth it.

Also, please forgive me for being naive but can you really purchase TESOL certifications over the web? is that a joke?

Also, how many of you who have replied to my post are owners, operators or managers, or people who have otherwise had hiring experience?
No offence intended, i appreciate your replies, i just wanted to know.


o..

[obear]

Also i guess if i wanted to be 'professional" i wouldn't use a bloody bear mangling someone as my avatar, right!?

[ttjereth]

Also, please forgive me for being naive but can you really purchase TESOL certifications over the web? is that a joke?

Unfortunately not...



http://www.noveltycertifications.com/

Novelties don't usually run 80 bucks :P

[kusai Jijii]

what i am finding is that most people ( even the ones that interview well) are merely people out of school who can't find a job in their respective countries, or people who are merely trying to finance their extended vacations here in Japan.

o..

With the utmost respect, may I refer you back to my original post. If you think I am off the mark (which I may well be), as a suggestion, why dont you post the basic conditions under which you hire your teachers, and we can see if we can help you further with your little problem.

[obear]

Hi Kusai!


a few things, first, i want to clarify that i am not the boss at my company. i've recently been given the opportunity to try and improve our "bad hiring" situation.

So far i have made note of many bad things within the current hiring process.
In regards to your question about the conditions here, unfortunately you aren't too far off the mark. The owner can only afford to pay a teacher about 2000 yen per hour, however apart from that, everything else about the job is pretty good. Scheduling is not an issue, the hours are there.


i decided to take a more active role in this because in the future i do plan to open my own school. Many people have mixed opinions on this but i am determined and i know i can do it. So, for the most part i am using my current school as a huge learning opportunity. Its also the reason why i want to talk to other school managers, or operators.

But please, i do want to hear more opinions. i need to better understand the situation so that even if i can't make any changes here, i will be able to apply what i've learned when it comes time to go out on my own.

[obear]

Okay forgive me once again for being naive, but how would a prospective employer know if this cert. was fake?

Amoung many of the poor hiring practices at my school, no one really does a background check on the cert. Would a prospective employer
actually contact the organization that administered the certification and ask them to check their records for the applicant's diploma or whatever?
i'm curious about how people with these fake certifications get hired, and how they get caught.

Gosh i really do feel naive.

[kusai Jijii]

Hi Obear,

firstly, I appreciate your frankness about the pay scale where you work, and also respect the fact that you are open to opinions as to how the whole eikaiwa operation works so you will be better prepared to have a crack on your own.

To put it bluntly, about the only advice I could give you (and I escaped the eikaiwa world over a decade ago) is to remain completely cognizant of the fact that you are working in the buisness world, not the education sector. Truth be told, many students dont want to be educated so much as consume a 'product' at an affordable rate here. Sad, but IMO, also true.

So what to do? Well, you gotta find the "staff" that can keep the "customers" (read here "consumers") the happiest for the longest. And that does not necessarily require a formal teaching qualification. In fact, I think many people would agree with me that the best eikaiwa teachers often are the ones that dont have formal quals. Frankly, you dont need 'em.

However, the laws of economics are at work here Obear. Its a fact of life that 'good' (and there are several definitions of good - not all defined by formal qualifications) people go to the better jobs. What I am trying to say in this long-winded post is that it might be worth suggesting to your boss that, in order to retain a talented teacher that keeps 'customers' satisfied and promotes repeat buisness and referals, it might be a good idea to offer them enough incentive to stay.
pretty simple really.
Good luck with it all,
Kusai Jijii

[samuraiwig]

In the UK/Europe there are essentially 2 recognized certificates:
1. CELTA
2. Trinity College Cert TESOL
It should be easy enough to verify someone's accreditation either with one of these organizations or with the school they claim to have attended to get the qualification.

However these qualifications are typically one month courses that teach the fundamentals. (Diploma courses are more comprehensive.) Any conscientious teacher with 6-12 months experience who is interested in self-development should be at least as competent as a newbie with one of these certificates. But attracting someone who has genuine certification or is ambitious enough to have developed themselves as a teacher is likely to be difficult at 2,000 an hour.

There may be other reputable organizations elsewhere (e.g. North America, Oceania), but I don't know enough to comment.

[Taro Toporific]

Okay forgive me once again for being naive, but how would a prospective employer know if this cert. was fake?

My impression from reviewing resumes for my judo sensei/drinking buddy who owned a medium-sized engrish school (200 students) was that 95% of the TESL certificates that were presented to us were fake. If the applicant using the fake TESL looked good (blue eyes) and didn't drool too much we would ignore the fake.

Please note that most TESL certification programs are a total farce, as are most high school teacher education programs. Only 2-year programs with requiring completion of a thesis and passing two separate comprehensive exams in "theory" and "practice" are worth a shit. Actually, the 6-week to 3-month programs such as offered by the Japan Times are just as good as most the one year programs offering "state certification in TESL/TEFL" in the United States.


Here are a few of the standard procedures at Hitachi when I reviewed gaijin job applications for 20 years:

• Never accept a Xerox copy of a degree or certificate.
• Always demand a certified legal copy of the applicant's university transcript.
• Call the applicant's university registrar to confirm the validity of the transcript and degree (the applicant must sign a release waver that you need to fax to the registrar).
• Run a cheap internet background check as final check on an applicant such as https://www.intelius.com/people-search.html

I used to work as bilingual education consultant for the Federal Government and I could rant about this for hours...but you'll have to buy me drinks at the Arakuto get a full "consultation" from me.

[ttjereth]

Okay forgive me once again for being naive, but how would a prospective employer know if this cert. was fake?

Amoung many of the poor hiring practices at my school, no one really does a background check on the cert. Would a prospective employer
actually contact the organization that administered the certification and ask them to check their records for the applicant's diploma or whatever?
i'm curious about how people with these fake certifications get hired, and how they get caught.

Gosh i really do feel naive.

The easiest way is to first check if the organization issuing the certificate actually exists or not, then if it does check out the organization a bit, see if it seems legit or if it's just a "2 week, pay us money, mail in multiple choice test" type thing, and finally contact those organizations you think are legit to check that the person presenting the certificate actually earned one there.

However, as others have mentioned, the absolute easiest thing to do is just completely ignore the certificates or lack thereof entirely, since overall they mean very little. TESOL certificates from even accredited instituions are generally really easy to get and don't prove much, since the correlation between having a TESOL certificate (even a valid or "real" one) and actual teaching ability is practically 0, and on top of that TESOL methods taught in the U.S. or elsewhere have very little to do with actual teaching here in Japan, and even less to do with eikaiwa, which is a business, not an educational institution.

Eikaiwas don't succeed by having their students actually learn, they succeed by having a lot of students and repeat customers, and unfortunately the former isn't required for the latter.

The vast majority of eikaiwa students don't really want to learn, or don't have the drive to really learn, otherwise they would actually study, e.g. crack some text books and spend hours a day, not just hours a week/month actually studying. It's been my experience that most eikaiwa students look at it as almost half hobby. It's something to do on a weeknight, but I know very people who have actually learned to speak English (or any other language) through an eikaiwa type "language school".

When presented with a program geared towards actually learning the language, that required actual work, most students didn't like it. "It's too hard", "I don't have enough time for this", "it's boring" were fairly common complaints for the few teachers at the school who were actually good at teaching but never learned that actually teaching, and having students actually learn isn't what's important in eikaiwa (look at how much money Nova has made).

In my (thankfully short) stint as an eikaiwa teacher, the most popular teachers who had the most students and the best reviews from students were always either the most entertaining teachers or the best looking teachers, in that order. If you were good looking and entertaining you were practically guaranteed more students than you knew what to do with.

All of the students I dealt with who wanted to or had to actually learn to speak the language (usually for work) were almost always unsatisfied with the general level of education and actual learning that could be achieved at eikaiwa, and the majority of the students who could actually speak English looked on it more as practice sessions than actual study.

So before everything else, I think the first thing you have to determine is are you wanting to create a successful learning institution, or a successful business. The two shouldn't necessarily be mutually exclusive, but sometimes it seems pretty damn close to it in the eikaiwa business.

[DrP]

Teaching, as a skill set, has little relationship to a 'degree' or 'diploma'. However, most credentialed teachers (at least in the US) must have significant experience in a classroom and meet qualifications that ensure a reasonable level of proficiency in not only the subjects they are certified to teach but also with regards to peer and administrative review. Hence, grads from Universities with various degrees of discipline do not in any way warrantee profiency as a teacher. Since Japanese tend to place their credibility on a rubber stamp (hanko) - certificates become the standard and the actual person is secondary. I call it the 'ass hanko' syndrome.

[obear]

Wow,

i was out of Japan for a few weeks to take care of some family business. Coming back to this forum, i am so grateful for the number of useful replies! This board has been super helpful. Although at the risk of sounding naive once again, i am now wrestling with the idea of pursuing English teaching as a way to help people actually learn, or to approach it as a business. i knew this was the case but the way you guys have put it felt like being wacked over the head with a fish. Obviously i need to think hard about this.

As you all know i am thinking about running my own shop eventually and now i must come to terms with the question of whether i want to run a business or an educational institution.

So this leads to another big question moving away from the topic of hiring and qualifications. I want to keep it here in this thread since you have all been following along here.

What do you think about the ethics of a business that presents itself as an educational institution? Is it dirty? is it wrong? and if all of us here realize that Eikaiwa doesn't actually help people become proficient English speakers, would it be fair to say that most students ( consumers) know this as well?

And if eikaiwa's don't do a good enough job of teaching people English, what are your opinions on private one to one teachers? You know, when a person contracts you to teach private lessons in a donut shop or something. Is that generally seen as a successful way to learn English?



once again your input has been amazing, even if no one posts further on this i am quite happy with all the info about the industry. i can literally feel my unintelligence quotient dropping!


o..

[CrankyBastard]

And if eikaiwa's don't do a good enough job of teaching people English, what are your opinions on private one to one teachers? You know, when a person contracts you to teach private lessons in a donut shop or something. Is that generally seen as a successful way to learn English?

o..

Well, in my opinion, no one can teach the Japanese to speak English.
The best you can hope to do is to help them learn.
If they try to learn, you help. If you try to teach them, you're farting against a typhoon.
JMHO

[Mulboyne]

What do you think about the ethics of a business that presents itself as an educational institution?

There's nothing unethical about running a school for profit. It sounds like your bigger concern is representing your business as a school when it might actually be better described a social club. That is, your are in entertainment rather than education. You can take a variety of approaches in business. For instance, you can research a market and give customers what you believe they want. Alternatively, you could decide on a service you want to provide and set out to find people who are willing to pay for it. If the demand is for entertainment but you want the satisfaction of helping people learn, then try and come up with ways which balance customers' enjoyment of lessons with challenges which do help them improve their skills.