Clueless Idiots

[FG Lurker]

Just as I stepped out of my house tonight a mother rode by with her ~3 year old child on the back of her bike. Now, one would imagine that the child was sitting in one of those ubiquitous child carry seats, but no, this mother had her small child sitting directly on the carry rack on the back of the bike -- like you see high school kids doing all the time.

I saw her go by and thought, "Fuck, that's insane, that kid is going to get her foot stuck in the back wheel of the bike......"

There wasn't time for me to say anything, and what can you say to such people anyway? Obviously they're not going to listen to reason -- if they had logical brains they wouldn't put the kid there in the first place.

Sure enough, not more than 10m past my place, the kid lets out a horrific scream. She'd stuck her foot into the back wheel.

My God, how the hell could anyone be stupid enough to put a small child on the back of a bike that way? Is it not obvious what the outcome is going to be!?

I went over to see if there was anything I could do to help. (What I really wanted to do was beat some sense into the mother...)

Seems she lives just down the street, I'm sure my wife knows her, at least by appearance if not by name. I looked at the kid's foot, it wasn't as mangled as it could have been, but it was definitely fucked up. I told her that it was pretty likely that the kid was going to have broken bones and that she better get her to the hospital immediately. An ambulance just went by so I suppose she at least had the sense to do that much. I hope so, anyway.

Kids heal quickly, as long as nothing major is broken I guess she'll be okay. Maybe not though, I it probably depends a lot on which hospital and how good the doctor is. She could be lucky or she could be walking with a twisted up foot for the rest of her life.

I feel so bad for that kid. No fault of her own, just an idiot for a mother.

Sorry, there is no point to this post, it's just a vent. Stupid people piss me off.

[kusai Jijii]

Hey Lurk,
my wife has a big scar accross her heal from the exact same thing happening to her when she was a whipper snapper, and I have also seen the same thing happen in Osaka.
A slight twist on this theme is the "lets nurse the infant in the front passenger seat while driving down the highway", or my personal favorite, "lets watch TV on the car-navi while opperating an automobile!"
Clueless idiots indeed!

[Mike Oxlong]

How does the child protection system work in Japan? If it was in Canada, the doctor/authorities would very likely have social services check the home and parenting situation, ask around...maybe act if necessary. Does Japan have anything remotely like that?

[amdg]

FG, horrible story. I have one to match. I was hanging out at the side of T.Hands in Shinsaibashi (opposite that funky household goods store) just waiting for the wife when one of the bikes parked across the street fell over. Would have been OK if there wasn't a 2 year old baby strapped onto a seat at the back when it happened. Unfortunately for everyone, there was. Poor little kid hit his head hard. And it makes me sick to even think about it now but he didn't cry when he hit the ground.

[kusai Jijii]

While I'm obviously no expert on the issue, I seem to recall a case at the at the end of last year where a boy was bashed to death by the mother's live in boyfriend. The respective authorities had visited, and taken temporary custody of the child on several occasions, but somehow it was deemed (either by the powers that be, or the fucked up system) that it was the 'best thing for the child' to be reunited with his mother. Shortly after that he was killed by the boyfriend. Not something unique to Japan, but horrific nontheless.
Not a laughing matter at all.

[Mike Oxlong]

Sad stories all around. Scary for those with kids. The ex's friend had a child beat up by crazy in a park. Police released him a few days later as he was not stable enough to be processed through the legal system (their explanation to the concerned moms in the area). So he went back to hanging out in the park where the kids play.

[james]

last year, while setting up my second school and making a visit to a local supermarket, i walked past a locked car and noticed an infant / toddler inside. a very hot, sweaty and crying infant. i went inside and gave them the car plate number so they could announce it and try to find the.. "mother". she was of course *nowhere* to be found, and the seconds ticked by excruciatingly slowly.

by then, a small gathering of busybodies had formed around the vehicle with no-one knowing what to do except offer the usual litany of "kawai sou"s and "komatta naa"s. maybe 5-10 minutes had passed at this point, but who the hell knows how long the kid had been in there by that time. i'd had enough so i went across the street to the car dealer to see if someone there could slim-jim the lock. so slim-jim guy and i are running back, because by this time, i really feel the situation is getting critical.

when we got back, mother of the year had finally been located and the infant taken out of the car. i am sure the *only* thing that saved this poor child's life is the fact that it was mid september instead of mid-august. that and the fact i happened to walk by when i did. the car was in direct sunlight and it was quite hot out. lots of people had walked both ways by the car and not a single one of them noticed (or cared).

[Mike Oxlong]

...i am sure the *only* thing that saved this poor child's life is the fact that it was mid september instead of mid-august. that and the fact i happened to walk by when i did. the car was in direct sunlight and it was quite hot out. lots of people had walked both ways by the car and not a single one of them noticed (or cared).

Do you think there would have been any repercussions had you broken a window (as a last resort) to save the infant?

[Typhoon]

How does the child protection system work in Japan? If it was in Canada, the doctor/authorities would very likely have social services check the home and parenting situation, ask around...maybe act if necessary. Does Japan have anything remotely like that?

Only in Canada, eh?

And people accuse Japan of being an intrusive Nanny State.

[Mike Oxlong]

Only in Canada, eh?

And people accuse Japan of being an intrusive Nanny State.

If there were witnesses and/or suspicions of willful negligence, then yes, a social worker may be called.

In Canada, child welfare laws require that all cases of suspected child abuse must be investigated to determine if a child is in need of protection. If a child is determined to be in need of protection, the child welfare authorities may respond by, for example, providing counseling and support for the family, removing the child (temporarily or permanently) from the home, or removing the abuser(s) from the home. Criminal sanctions may also apply in cases of sexual or physical abuse.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/ps/fm/childafs.html

How do you define child abuse? Does the case FL mention constitute child abuse? How about the one James mentioned? Any of them? None of them? Why?

[tidbits]

[Typhoon]

If there were witnesses and/or suspicions of willful negligence, then yes, a social worker may be called.

http://www.justice.gc.ca/en/ps/fm/childafs.html

How do you define child abuse? Does the case FL mention constitute child abuse? How about the one James mentioned? Any of them? None of them? Why?

Leaving the kid in an overheated care is irresponsble - the kid's life could be endangered by dehydration and heatstroke.

The rest is whiny Nanny State nonsense.

Since you're fond of quoting dead statesmen.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety and will lose both."

~ Benjamin Franklin

[james]

Do you think there would have been any repercussions had you broken a window (as a last resort) to save the infant?

it's funny you should mention that, because as a last resort, i'd asked someone to find something heavy and blunt (like a fire extinguisher) that could be used to break a window if necessary. (unlike hollywood, you can't just punch a window made of tempered glass and have it shatter into a thousand pieces while also not doing any damage to your hand).

fortunately, it never came to that and with lots of witnesses around, i wouldn't have been just some gaijin vandal trying to steal a baby. i personally doubt i'd be charged with anything but i have a sneaking suspicion i'd be made to pay for the damages.

[Mike Oxlong]

Leaving the kid in an overheated care is irresponsble - the kid's life could be endangered by dehydration and heatstroke.

The rest is whiny Nanny State nonsense.

Since you're fond of quoting dead statesmen.

"Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety and will lose both."

~ Benjamin Franklin

I understand your feelings. Many would agree that the fewer gov't control & interference the better. In gerneral, I think that's fine. But, I think that those who cannot protect themselves (kids, for example) derserve some measure of protection until they can take care of themselves without adult assistance. It can definitely be a fine line as to what is abuse and what is just bad luck or different cultural sensitivities, but I'd rather have suspicious situations investigated. There are a whole range of options as to how to handle suspected cases...just having a care worker chat with the parent, and so on up the scale.

[FG Lurker]

When there is something unfortunate happen, most of the people will just point finger at the mother, even though sometimes it is plain accident just like the automatic door case in Roppongi few years back.

This is a bad example. I'd give very good odds that this happened because the mother in question was letting her kids run rampant around the area, quite likely while she was yakking to a friend or on her phone. This drives me insane! Stores and shopping centers are NOT PLAYGROUNDS! Parents who let their kids run around screaming in such places should be beat over the head with large sticks. It's dangerous for the kids (see Roppongi door incident) and annoying as fuck for everyone else who is in the area.

That said, I agree 100% that the vast majority of people in Japanese cities won't lift a finger to help someone obviously in need. It's pathetic.

[FG Lurker]

Leaving the kid in an overheated care is irresponsble - the kid's life could be endangered by dehydration and heatstroke.

The rest is whiny Nanny State nonsense.

I wondered if this debate would come up in this thread.

I'm torn about this sort of thing. On one hand, I absolutely despise government control. (If I was American I would probably be Libertarian.) On the other hand people like the parents mentioned in this thread are obviously unable to use their brains to figure out what reasonable behavior is.

Where does one draw the line?

We could be totally harsh and say that it is Darwinian and helps weed out the weak and stupid from the gene pool. While that would be a very natural (ie nature-based) approach, it obviously lacks human compassion and is overly harsh on children who have no control over their own lives. There is no doubt it would be effective though.

The polar opposite is what we can see in many western countries where the government is exerting more and more control over the populace. This treats the non-idiots the same as the idiots though and hardly seems reasonable either. It also leads to an increase in the number of idiots and people who don't (can't!) think for themselves. No thank you!

I'd like to think there is a way to find some middle ground here, but I don't see any straightforward way to do it.

[halfnip]

What about all of these idiots that leave their children unattended at pachinko parlors or better yet in Casino's like in Vegas. I've seen this soo many times and it's absolutely infuriates me when I see some little kid all passed out in a chair or playing his Nintendo DS while his parents are off trying to make a quick buck. Shit, some places even go so far as to have day care facilities on site so the parents can suck it all in, eh? I don't have any kids at the moment (she should be popping out in late December), so I can't really relate, but I can't imagine ditching the kids or even bringing them to somewhere like a pachinko parlor or a casino knowing the kids will have nothing to do...

And controlling your kids is one thing, but what's up with these parents that have their kids on those leashes? Like freakin' dogs or something....

[FG Lurker]

(she should be popping out in late December)

Congratulations!

And controlling your kids is one thing, but what's up with these parents that have their kids on those leashes?

I see nothing wrong with keeping small children on a leash. Some kids are placid and not prone to suddenly bolting into the street etc. Other kids are far worse than any untrained dog. Glance away for a fraction of a second and the kid is GONE. My sister was this way, and when she was small my mother regularly had her in a harness with a leash.

Like freakin' dogs or something....

There is very little difference between an untrained dog and a small child. Both need training, teaching, love, compassion, and yes, discipline. Too many people try to treat their kids as adults or friends. They are neither.

[james]

There is very little difference between an untrained dog and a small child. Both need training, teaching, love, compassion, and yes, discipline. Too many people try to treat their kids as adults or friends. They are neither.

don't forget food and water.. they need those too. it is parental instincts like these that have made me the exceptional father that i am today.

[FG Lurker]

don't forget food and water.. they need those too. it is parental instincts like these that have made me the exceptional father that i am today.

I thought it was the nights out drinking and the party weekends on the island!

[Mike Oxlong]

Congratulations!


I see nothing wrong with keeping small children on a leash. Some kids are placid and not prone to suddenly bolting into the street etc. Other kids are far worse than any untrained dog. Glance away for a fraction of a second and the kid is GONE. My sister was this way, and when she was small my mother regularly had her in a harness with a leash.


There is very little difference between an untrained dog and a small child. Both need training, teaching, love, compassion, and yes, discipline. Too many people try to treat their kids as adults or friends. They are neither.

Lurk,

You hit on a key point right here. So many of the Japanese I know say they spoil their kids because they want their kids to like them, and take care of them in their old age.

What a crock! Kids naturally love their parents, it's nature. But, these days most kids don't respect their parents, because their parents try to be cool and friends and cave in at the slightest pressure. Parents rasion d'etre is not to be liked, but to guide and teach and prepare kids for their adulthood. Discipline can be lessened as responsibilities and age increase. Yet I see very little of this nowadays.

I do know plenty of people who as adults now still love and take care of their parents, even though their parents were abusive, drunk, strict, and had all sorts of other shortcomings. These people love their parents, not what their parents did while they were still kids. They love their parents now regardless, and do what they can to help their parents now in their old age.

[FG Lurker]

So many of the Japanese I know say they spoil their kids because they want their kids to like them, and take care of them in their old age.

What a crock! Kids naturally love their parents, it's nature. But, these days most kids don't respect their parents, because their parents try to be cool and friends and cave in at the slightest pressure. Parents rasion d'etre is not to be liked, but to guide and teach and prepare kids for their adulthood. Discipline can be lessened as responsibilities and age increase. Yet I see very little of this nowadays.

I wish people would keep in mind that their kids can have a limitless number of friends, but will only ever have ONE mother and ONE father. Kids don't need more friends, they need good role models and they need to have limits set for their behavior -- and enforced! The house doesn't need to be a constant boot camp, but it shouldn't be Club Med either.

No one is a "perfect" parent, I'm certainly not. It's just hard for me to fathom how these people expect their kids to grow up and become adults if they never receive any training as kids! The world is a hard and unfair place, trying to shelter kids from that is not going to make things easier when they eventually have to face reality.

[james]

setting (and for the love of all that is good - enforcing) boundaries is important. kids need them. the latest trends in "parenting" are really quite sad to see in action - no boundaries, being "buddies" with the kids acquiescing to every little demand and trying to curry favour, or as seems to so often be the case in japan, complete and utter negligence.

[tidbits]

This is a bad example. I'd give very good odds that this happened because the mother in question was letting her kids run rampant around the area, quite likely while she was yakking to a friend or on her phone. This drives me insane! Stores and shopping centers are NOT PLAYGROUNDS! Parents who let their kids run around screaming in such places should be beat over the head with large sticks. It's dangerous for the kids (see Roppongi door incident) and annoying as fuck for everyone else who is in the area.

That said, I agree 100% that the vast majority of people in Japanese cities won't lift a finger to help someone obviously in need. It's pathetic.

Running around the mall... I said really depends on the place and time/ which mall (there are malls like Lalaport Toyosu that is more family friendly type is ok) and importantly, the parents attitude, like whether the kids are being watched all the time and being warned not to do certain things. But I think restaurant is a no-no for running around as there are hot foods and drinks around. But like you said too, kids are not adult, you don't expect them to behave like one even after you have constanly tell them not to do certain thing. Kids run and most of the time-noisy The people that feel annoyed by kids running and screaming sometimes should be more understanding, ...and not try to beat the parents head with a large stick:) .

About those salary man that didn't help, it is just not that they didn't help, I felt that some were even annoyed that I block their way on the staircase.

[FG Lurker]

Running around the mall... I said really depends on the place and time/ which mall (there are malls like Lalaport Toyosu that is more family friendly type is ok)

Kids running is pretty normal. Kids running, screaming, dodging around other people, etc is playground activity and is NEVER acceptable in a shopping centre or other public space. This is basic manners and should be common sense. Sadly it is not.

No matter how you slice it, Roppongi Hills is not a place kids should be running around at all!

But like you said too, kids are not adult, you don't expect them to behave like one even after you have constanly tell them not to do certain thing.

Kids who are taken out in public should be taught how to BEHAVE in public. Kids should be taught what is acceptable for a shopping centre or other "general use" public space and what is NOT. I don't expect kids to be perfect, but I sure as hell do not accept them running around a shopping centre as though it was the local park.

Kids run and most of the time-noisy The people that feel annoyed by kids running and screaming sometimes should be more understanding, ...and not try to beat the parents head with a large stick:) .

Why is understanding of bad manners necessary? The kids should be taught proper manners!

[DrP]

I started my daughter out spartan style. An ice bath to see if she'd survive, then followed by 3 days fasting. So far she's doing great! As for my wife, the same thing applies. Any issues and I grasp her by the neck until she commences to gasp and turn green. I have no problems with either. Who needs a leash?

[tidbits]

Kids running is pretty normal. Kids running, screaming, dodging around other people, etc is playground activity and is NEVER acceptable in a shopping centre or other public space. This is basic manners and should be common sense. Sadly it is not.
No matter how you slice it, Roppongi Hills is not a place kids should be running around at all!

Kids who are taken out in public should be taught how to BEHAVE in public. Kids should be taught what is acceptable for a shopping centre or other "general use" public space and what is NOT. I don't expect kids to be perfect, but I sure as hell do not accept them running around a shopping centre as though it was the local park.

Why is understanding of bad manners necessary? The kids should be taught proper manners!

I have a 3 years old, I do teach and keep repeating the rules to him, but while he is learning all this, he tends to makes some mistakes on the way,especially in this terrible 2-3 years old rebellious period, and I do hope the people around are more understanding. I agree Roppongi Hills is not a suitable place for kids. But before your second last post on this, I thought the accident happenned while the mother and child was just trying to get in or get out of the building. It could have happenned in this way to any "well behaved' kid too..but again people will probably start questioning the mother what the hell is she doing in Roppongi Hills, which I think has nothing to do with the accident.

I know understanding of bad manners is not necessary, like my other post about the Oyaji cyclist, but for example if a 3 years old scream and cries in a restaurant, are you annoyed by the noise? I guess for you, yes, and for many other customers too, so normally I would do is to bring him out until he calms down. What I am saying is, a child's screaming and crying is always annoying even it has nothing to do with the kid's manners as a 2-3 years old toddler still cannot fully control their emotions or even their action, and I hope some people can be more understanding in this case.

[Iraira]

Had this happen to me in Shinjuku about 3 years ago. Was standing around (meaning: not moving) writing mail on my keitai and suddenly something slammed into by leg. It was 4-5 year old J-brat, who needed Ritalin or a leash. Kid basically bounced off me, fell to the ground and began crying his eyes out. My immediate reaction was that I was going to go to jail. Fortunately, my gf was with me and I guess brat's mom felt that her child was somewhat responsibile for the incident. Mom scooped up brat, didn't even say anything to me, and began talking to brat about getting ice cream.
So, on that day, brat learned something. To get mom to do anything I want, run into a gaijin and cry. Anyone else met brat?

[Typhoon]

Running around the mall... I said really depends on the place and time/ which mall (there are malls like Lalaport Toyosu that is more family friendly type is ok) and importantly, the parents attitude, like whether the kids are being watched all the time and being warned not to do certain things. But I think restaurant is a no-no for running around as there are hot foods and drinks around. But like you said too, kids are not adult, you don't expect them to behave like one even after you have constanly tell them not to do certain thing. Kids run and most of the time-noisy The people that feel annoyed by kids running and screaming sometimes should be more understanding, ...and not try to beat the parents head with a large stick:) .

...

Having one's kids running around and screaming in any public place, with the exception of a kid's playground, is never appropriate and is only made worse if the parents don't deal with it. That's just poor parenting. These little brats may be some parent's blessed little darlings, but they're just an obnoxious pain in the ass to everyone else.

In such a situation a beating of the parents responsible with a large blunt object should be mandatory as a minimum.

[FG Lurker]

I have a 3 years old, I do teach and keep repeating the rules to him, but while he is learning all this, he tends to makes some mistakes on the way,especially in this terrible 2-3 years old rebellious period, and I do hope the people around are more understanding.

I'm understanding if the environment is appropriate.

For example, if it is 11am in the local playground and some kid is screaming his head off and running around, I might be annoyed by the excessive racket, but it's a playground and that's what playgrounds are for.

If we take that same kid running around screaming and put him on a train, in a store, in a restaurant, or downtown in a shopping area... I have zero patience for this. It is in NO WAY acceptable to have kids running around screaming in non-kid-oriented public places.

I agree Roppongi Hills is not a suitable place for kids.

Too bad the parents involved didn't know this. Their kid would still be around.

But before your second last post on this, I thought the accident happenned while the mother and child was just trying to get in or get out of the building.

I didn't see the accident happen so I don't know for sure that the kid was running around. However, my understanding is that he got crushed by the doors because they didn't stop revolving when he fell. If he had been with his mother, hopefully holding her hand (most anyone should be able to see that revolving doors are not particularly kid-safe) then it is extremely unlikely that he would have fallen, and if he had fallen the doors would have stopped when they hit his mother. Failing that she could have grabbed him and stepped out of the door. These doors aren't spinning at hyper-speed, they are not a problem for a normal adult to handle.

but for example if a 3 years old scream and cries in a restaurant, are you annoyed by the noise? I guess for you, yes, and for many other customers too, so normally I would do is to bring him out until he calms down.

Good! Manners and common sense should tell all parents to remove their kid from enclosed spaces (unless impossible, eg. a plane) if the kid is screaming and making a fuss. No one wants to listen to some kid having a tantrum because he can't have ice cream.