Speaking Like A Girl

[Mulboyne]

CSMonitor: I sound like what in Japanese?

Wherever you go, men and women tend to speak differently. But in Japan, those differences are more pronounced than in many places. Among the multilayered rules of grammar and usage governing spoken Japanese, there also exist underlying concepts of "men's Japanese" and "women's Japanese." By the end of my 2-1/2-year stay there, I had unwittingly become conversant in the latter form. Like many Western men who spend more than a year in Japan, I learned most of my intonation, expressions, and slang – the things not taught in the classroom – by mimicking a Japanese girlfriend. I thought my Japanese was fine, while in reality the effeminate, almost childish twang I had been learning made me sound very much like a 20-something, pink miniskirted Japanese woman. Grammar and syntax aside, Japanese men generally speak in shortened huffs, while women tend to speak in artificially high octaves, elongating their word endings in an almost coquettish attempt to flatter the listener. I didn't realize this at the time, though, because my contact with Japanese men was fleeting.

So I would make constant mental notes on my girlfriend's pronunciation, grammar, and usage, as well as insist that she never utter a word of English in my presence. I even kept a notebook in my pocket so I could write down any new words I learned on a given day. Then I'd study it in the evening. Japanese acquaintances, eager to compliment anyone who can say a few words in their language, would constantly say "Josu dane!" or "Your Japanese is really good!" With this frequent flattery, which the Japanese, especially the women, have mastered, my ego eventually became airborne. But what I didn't know was that people around me were actually laughing. Not maliciously, but sort of as if I were a gaijin peto, or foreign pet.

I wasn't alone. I had friends who sounded like average American guys in English but whose voices, once they broke into Japanese, took on the girly tones of the high-heeled Asian fashionistas they were dating. Most of these guys were in an English-speaking environment all day at teaching institutes that employed mainly foreigners. After work, they would go home to their Japanese wives or meet their Japanese girlfriends, and therefore had little contact with Japanese men. Because the Japanese tend to avoid any form of confrontation, my girlfriend would never correct me. That is, until one day in an ice-cream shop when she couldn't take it anymore. She snapped, "Don't say it that way – you sound like a girl!" referring to my choice of words to describe the ice cream we were sharing. I didn't mind being corrected on my pronunciation. But I was disappointed to learn that for the past 2-1/2 years, I had not been speaking good Japanese.

Suddenly, she fired off a list of the mistakes I had apparently made umpteen times. She said her friends had often snickered when I referred to myself in the third person, as many Japanese women and girls do, and when they heard me end sentences with the particle "wa," which is usually used by women to soften the tone of a sentence. Most of all, she said, I needed to take the pitch of my voice down several notches from the tone I had learned.

The solution, of course, was to hang out with more Japanese guys. But for me, a freelance journalist with a part-time job and daily Japanese classes to attend, I had little time for new friends. Besides, Japanese men, unlike their friendly female counterparts, are often inaccessible. They generally work 12 hours at a stretch and afterward go out in tight-knit, impenetrable groups. My girlfriend once tried to recruit a few male coworkers to teach me better Japanese but had little success. They were either too busy or just too exhausted. No help came from my teachers – they were all women and were hesitant to correct me anyway. There were no Japanese men working at my baito, or part-time job, either. And textbooks do not often clarify the difference between men's and women's vocabulary. Some teach a few things, but most do not get into the finer points or advanced terminology used separately by men and women.

So I started the painstaking task of dissecting my own style of speaking, asking teachers, my home-stay parents, pretty much everyone, whether such-and-such was proper for men to say. It got to the point where I couldn't finish a sentence. I would stop in the middle and ask, "Tadashi desuka?" ("Is that correct?") Some people would be honest, but many weren't, telling me my Japanese was fine. I asked some people point blank if my Japanese was joseiteki, or girlish. Some giggled knowingly, but no one would come out and say it. My ego had been artificially inflated over my skill in speaking Japanese and then – pop! – the bubble burst. Since then, I've made some adjustments, but an honest Japanese friend recently told me that my Japanese is still chotto kirei, or "a little pretty." Not what I wanted to hear, but shoganai – it can't be helped. That's all right. I guess at this point I've gotten used to it.

[james]

i have a different problem - that being when i first came here i was working primarily with older people speaking a very rustic dialect, which i managed to absorb like a sponge. to the best of my knowledge, i don't sound effeminate but i do tend to speak and inflect much like the older people here. it's not too bad as long as i'm in town, but even venturing to matsue i've had people ask where i learned to speak like their grand-parents.

the article describes what i think is the all too common pattern (which has been going on since foreign men first made contact with japanese women) of men learning japanese from their girlfriends, female japanese teachers etc instead of japanese men, and thus sounding effeminate.

i think it indicates a need for male japanese instructors, be it in japan or overseas where learning the language has become more popular.

[Greji]

i think it indicates a need for male japanese instructors, be it in japan or overseas where learning the language has become more popular.

Well said, but it is still more fun to learn it in the futon!

[james]

Well said, but it is still more fun to learn it in the futon!

so *that's* why you talk like an 80 year old obaachan!

[Greji]

[quote="james"]so *that's* why you talk like an 80 year old obaachan! ]

sou desu wa!

[American Oyaji]

ikan!

[Bucky]

Several years ago I had occassion to speak on the phone with a particular Japanese girl in English. Her English had something about it. At first I thought she had a British accent. After we spoke for a little longer, I asked her if she had lived or studied in England? "No." she said. "I did go to school in Georgia, though" When she said "Geeeoorgia" with a perfect Sourthern drawl the mystery was solved. What did the Beach Boys say? "the Southern girls, with the way they talk. . ." Man was that wierd flavor of English.

[kurohinge1]

CSMonitor: I sound like what in Japanese?

This reminds me of that thread on the H.I.J.M.S. I-400 (submersible aircraft carrier) - Monster Sub Found Off Hawaii - and Tom Paine's journal (link compliments of Taro-san) about command of her after the Japanese surrender in WW2:

. . . When I got to know the Japanese officers better, I found out that part of my problem was that our interpreter instructors had been taught by elderly Japanese-American ladies who spoke only old fashioned, honorific Japanese. Instead of barking orders in proper quarterdeck style I'd been most respectfully and politely requesting. The puzzled Japanese must have thought we were a boarding party from Gilbert & Sullivan's H.M.S. Pinafore under orders from Sir Joseph Porter, K.C.B

[Takechanpoo]

When I watch gaijin speak Japanese fluently like native Japanese, I feel disgusting.
Gaijin should speak Japanese like gaijin.
Especially you dudes should lengthen prounciation at the end of word.

[Mike Oxlong]

I am also disconcerted by your amazing dexterity with my own native language, Take-kun.

[Greji]

When I watch gaijin speak Japanese fluently like native Japanese, I feel disgusting.
Gaijin should speak Japanese like gaijin.
Especially you dudes should lengthen prounciation at the end of word.

Well, if it's any consolation Take me lad, if you speak like you type, you will never fall into that problem with your English!

[GomiGirl]

When I watch gaijin speak Japanese fluently like native Japanese, I feel disgusting.
Gaijin should speak Japanese like gaijin.

Why? I thought you would be pleased that somebody had bothered to master Japanese? What about the people who have grown up in Japan but look caucasian? They often speak native Japanese as well as native English. Is that a problem too?

People who are bilingual should be applauded and encouraged, not criticised.

[Iraira]

When I watch gaijin speak Japanese fluently like native Japanese, I feel disgusting.

to a great many people, you probably are........

[tidbits]

Well said, but it is still more fun to learn it in the futon!

As long as you are in the futon, just make sure you say 'I am going' when you are actually 'coming'...

[Takechanpoo]

[2triky]

[halfnip]

[Greji]

f*ck, if there was anyone in desparate need of a tan....

f*ck, it there was anyone in deparate need of a f*ck....(refers to Take's undying love spasms)

[2triky]

f*ck, it there was anyone in deparate need of a f*ck....(refers to Take's undying love spasms)

haha.

i'll defer to your more knowledgeable frame of reference on the matter....that is to say you've been on this board much longer than i.

[kusai Jijii]

f*ck, it there was anyone in deparate need of a f*ck....(refers to Take's undying love spasms)

Fuck. If there was anyone in desperate need of a heavy blow to the skull with a blunt object...

[kurohinge1]

I feel disgusting about gaijin who doesnt try to master Japanese in spite of living in Japan . . .

Oh, I see. You meant master Japanese - the language.

[GomiGirl]

[Greji]

Oh, I see. You meant master Japanese - the language.

Ahh, come on Kuro! Don't hurt him too bad!

[kusai Jijii]

Take,
sorry to burst the bubble on this one, but, come on bro, where are you really from? You sure as hell aint Japanese.

[Takechanpoo]

Take,
sorry to burst the bubble on this one, but, come on bro, where are you really from? You sure as hell aint Japanese.

Needless to say, I am legitimate Japanese.
born in Nemuro, Hokkaido and raised in west Tokyo suburban.
Why do not only you but also most of member of fg.com think I am not Japanese?
Tell me.

[Iraira]

Needless to say, I am legitimate Japanese.
born in Nemuro, Hokkaido and raised in west Tokyo suburban.
Why do not only you but also most of member of fg.com think I am not Japanese?
Tell me.

Very simple. Much of what you write appears to convey a jab at the general ignorance that exists in some parts of Japanese society. You also post some things that make fun of the unique/odd aspects of Japan society, life, etc. That someone would try to claim uyoku-like leanings on a board that is >75% gaijin reeks of
A) a foreigner having fun, although to do so for such a length of time suggests that the person needs a life,
B) a Japanese person trying to have fun, and again, to do so for such a length of time suggests that the person needs a life, and/or
C) they've installed high speed internet access at your mental clinic.

While most of us are probably in favor of you being whom you want to be, understand that you end up coming off like someone who has some issues to deal with. As I stated before, pharmaceutical research has made great strides. You are not confined to simple electroshock these days. Valium, thorozine, Prozac, lithium, Xanax, Mellarill, percodan, ritalin, Ficodin...the list is endless, just remember to share. And when you absolutely gotta control every psychotic fit you could ever think of having, think Tegretol, accept no subsitutions........

[Adhesive]

Needless to say, I am legitimate Japanese.
born in Nemuro, Hokkaido and raised in west Tokyo suburban.
Why do not only you but also most of member of fg.com think I am not Japanese?
Tell me.

Why would a male-gaijin hater hang out all day on a forum made up of 99% foreign men and 1% foreign women that wouldn't give you the time of day?

[Adhesive]

I was also a victim of J-girl education. I've lived with Japanese girls from the time I was 19 'till now at 27. It's not the formal speech that's the problem, it's the little phrases and expressions that you pick up. I finally became aware of this when a Japanese friend of ours finally felt comfortable enough to bring it up...about 3 years after knowing him!

[2triky]

I was also a victim of J-girl education. I've lived with Japanese girls from the time I was 19 'till now at 27. It's not the formal speech that's the problem, it's the little phrases and expressions that you pick up. I finally became aware of this when a Japanese friend of ours finally felt comfortable enough to bring it up...about 3 years after knowing him!

Are you referring to phrases and expressions that are the traditional purview of women?

[kusai Jijii]

Needless to say, I am legitimate Japanese.
born in Nemuro, Hokkaido and raised in west Tokyo suburban.
Why do not only you but also most of member of fg.com think I am not Japanese?
Tell me.

Nemuro huh? What a coincidence. I was raised in Nemuro. I went to Nemuro Minami Shogakkou. Nakayama Sensei taught me in the first grade. Remember her? She was the young teacher with the big pie-pie. Anyway, We all used to go 'mushi tori' - ing after school at the park near the Nemuro post office. My sister still lives in Nemuro. She married Taro Tanaka, the fella who runs the soba shop on the edge of town. Ever eaten there? Really, you should. Anyway, my sister's cat had kittens to Taro's cat, the two became aquainted that way. They fell in love, and, well, as they say, the rest is history. Anyway, what a small world. If you ever get back to your jikka, drop in and introduce yourself to my sister at the soba shop. tell her I sent you, and your first slurp is on the house.
my oh my, what a small world. In any case, that settles it. Take is not only Japanese, he's from the town I grew up in!
Who woulda thought...