Speaking Like A Girl

[Greji]

Take is not only Japanese, he's from the town I grew up in!
Who woulda thought...

Be that as it may, according to the latest Takeism, you should try to speak Japanese like a FG, as it is more becoming.

Also, he might not have been born there. He could have been brought in by one of the famed Nemuro Repo sen.

BTW jumping the thread and changing the subject slightly, didn't Nemuro have a famous musical festival at one time way back when? If they still hold it, I don't hear much about it anymore.

[baka tono]

Thank god Im a woman and was taught Japanese by women so I dont have to worry about sounding that funny. What I find annoying is that people here wont tell you you are doing something wrong/stupid/annoying or whatever until a long time has passed. Like other posters mentioned it was years in some cases before someone pointed out they were talking like a girl. Instead they will just allow you to go on unaware that people are mad at or laughing at you.

[kusai Jijii]

Be that as it may, according to the latest Takeism, you should try to speak Japanese like a FG, as it is more becoming.

Also, he might not have been born there. He could have been brought in by one of the famed Nemuro Repo sen.

Whateva Boothie,
At least it shut the cunt up 4 a while.

[Takechanpoo]

In my collage days, I had read hundreds of so-called nihonjin-ron written by gaijin or Japanese writer.
Therefore I [SIZE="7"]DO[/SIZE] know what you gaijin dudes think about Japan and Japanese.
And I had saw and observed some typical creepy gaijin students in my collage.

[kamome]

In my collage days, I had read hundreds of so-called nihonjin-ron written by gaijin or Japanese writer.
Therefore I DO know what you gaijin dudes think about Japan and Japanese.
And I had saw and observed some typical creepy gaijin students in my collage.

You only think you know what gaijins think about Japan. You really have no clue.

[Greji]

Therefore I [SIZE="7"]DO[/SIZE] know what you gaijin dudes think about Japan and Japanese.
And I had saw and observed some typical creepy gaijin students in my collage.

I believe Tojo Hideki and crew all said the same thing about gaijins and added that it was their destiny to see that this gaijin thinking did not enter Japan, or that it should not be allowed to affect the Son of Heaven who's destiny was to rule the world.

How do you feel about that Take? It would appear that what you are saying is right in goose step with their beliefs and logic.

[2triky]

I believe Tojo Hideki and crew all said the same thing about gaijins and added that it was their destiny to see that this gaijin thinking did not enter Japan, or that it should not be allowed to affect the Son of Heaven who's destiny was to rule the world.

How do you feel about that Take? It would appear that what you are saying is right in goose step with their beliefs and logic.

lol....perhaps he's trying to resurrect the dream of the Greater East Asia Co-prosperity Sphere..i'm sure the world is with him. banzai!

[maraboutslim]

Oddly, I think I might agree with Take on this one. Well, at least I was not offended at all by Kume-san's famous, "Shikashi, gaijin wa nihongo ga katakoto no hou ga ii yo ne," blast on News Station back in my day in Japan. I kind of feel the same way: it's not appropriate for gaijin to try to "be like" Japanese in the way we speak. Back in the immediate post bubble years I'd see one of those Mormons-turned-talento dudes on tv speaking some obscure mountain village dialect of Japanese and making all the silly facial expressions and sucking air through their teeth and the whole nine yards and it made me just want to strangle them, ha!

BTW, surely I'm not the only one who thinks "nihongo jouzu desu ne," doesn't mean that the speaker actually thinks your Japanese is any good. I think they only say it when you make a mistake or are making some sort of effort to speak Japanese even though it's clear to them you aren't very good at it. I came to this conclusion because it was something I heard often (from shopkeepers and the like) during my first year in Japan but once I had a decent command of the language I never heard it again in the subsequent five years I lived there and haven't heard it since.

[Adhesive]

BTW, surely I'm not the only one who thinks "nihongo jouzu desu ne," doesn't mean that the speaker actually thinks your Japanese is any good. I think they only say it when you make a mistake or are making some sort of effort to speak Japanese even though it's clear to them you aren't very good at it. I came to this conclusion because it was something I heard often (from shopkeepers and the like) during my first year in Japan but once I had a decent command of the language I never heard it again in the subsequent five years I lived there and haven't heard it since.

You've been in Japan too long when...

[Greji]

Oddly, I think I might agree with Take on this one. Well, at least I was not offended at all by Kume-san's famous, "Shikashi, gaijin wa nihongo ga katakoto no hou ga ii yo ne," blast on News Station back in my day in Japan.

I didn't particularly find it initially as offensive as say, Debito did, but the more I thought about it, the more I decided that it was out of place on that level of a program. News Station was one of the top viewed shows nationwide at that time and maybe if it had of been an ex-pat or missionary speaking, or playing their games, it might have been more acceptable to me. But, if you recall, the guy Kume was describing was a third generation Indian, who was born, raised and educated in Japan. The only foreign thing about him was his looks (which obviously did not fit Take's Chrysanthemum Children image). From that view, I think Kume was out of line. BTW, did you know that Kume wrote Debito a letter of apology for making that statement...

I kind of feel the same way: it's not appropriate for gaijin to try to "be like" Japanese in the way we speak. Back in the immediate post bubble years I'd see one of those Mormons-turned-talento dudes on tv speaking some obscure mountain village dialect of Japanese and making all the silly facial expressions and sucking air through their teeth and the whole nine yards and it made me just want to strangle them, ha!

I'm with you on that. Although Kunts Girubato and Derikato made themselves (or Salt Lake City) a bundle of cash, it definately was not too easy on FG eyes to watch them perform!

BTW, surely I'm not the only one who thinks "nihongo jouzu desu ne," doesn't mean that the speaker actually thinks your Japanese is any good. I think they only say it when you make a mistake or are making some sort of effort to speak Japanese even though it's clear to them you aren't very good at it. I came to this conclusion because it was something I heard often (from shopkeepers and the like) during my first year in Japan but once I had a decent command of the language I never heard it again in the subsequent five years I lived there and haven't heard it since.

I have found that also, but I still do occasionally hear it. Quite obviously when you run into the J-obasan or ojisan that have not had much, if any contact with FGs, they are used to the Nihonjinron that no one can speak J-talk, but them, it's going to be one of the first things out of their mouth, whether you are butchering the language, or speaking like the PM. So in that case, it serves them as a way to start the conversation to find out all the usual questions, how long, where did you learn, where do you work, etc.,etc., etc.

But beyond that, I think the phrase and its usage has developed in conversation to the point where some J-people simply believe that it is an appropriate, if not required compliment they should give any FG who is making attempts at the language and it really doesn't matter about fluency.

[ttjereth]

Oddly, I think I might agree with Take on this one. Well, at least I was not offended at all by Kume-san's famous, "Shikashi, gaijin wa nihongo ga katakoto no hou ga ii yo ne," blast on News Station back in my day in Japan. I kind of feel the same way: it's not appropriate for gaijin to try to "be like" Japanese in the way we speak. Back in the immediate post bubble years I'd see one of those Mormons-turned-talento dudes on tv speaking some obscure mountain village dialect of Japanese and making all the silly facial expressions and sucking air through their teeth and the whole nine yards and it made me just want to strangle them, ha!

Is this peculiar to foreigners in Japan or what? I've never run into this kind of thinking amongst foreigners in other countries. There's always the whole "gone native" way of thinking that someone behaves too much like the locals (according to the local foreigner population anyway), but I've never heard anyone criticize someone for sounding "too native" in the way they spoke a language other than Japanese, if anything it has always seemed foreigners tended to be impressed with how well one of their number could speak say Spanish or Chinese in countries where those were the native language.

Seems rather silly to me to want to remain sounding like a "fresh off the boat" foreigner?

[halfnip]

Seems rather silly to me to want to remain sounding like a "fresh off the boat" foreigner?

I agree. When in Rome, act like the Romans do (whatever the hell that means!). It can go both ways, when I chat it up with some Japanese person who happened to study say in OZ, they always have that aussie accent. Or better yet, someone who studied back in the UK, they had that very deep Welsh accent, etc. Is that not the same here? If you learn the language in a particular area/region, you will end up picking it up eventually. I had this big friend who lived in Yamagata for a while before moving out to Tokyo and every once in a while when he spoke Japanese, he'd have that Yamagata-ben accent. It was funny as fuck, since he was a big black dude, but never once did I take offense to it...

Speaking of annoying FG's who speak perfect Jap lingo, what about that Kevin guy on TV? I happen to have had the displeasure of meeting this guy on a few occassions and he is just as every bit as annoying as the cocksucker you see on TV.

Shit, I hope he's not lurking around here somewhere.

[maraboutslim]

Ah, it's not exactly that. Clearly we should all strive for better than fresh off the boat language ability. The stuff that bugs me is more the mannerisms, the overuse of the idiom of the moment, etc. I mean, I wish I could talk like the guys in the yakuza movies but I also realize how absolutely ridiculous I would be if I actually talked like that when drinking with my friends.

How about this: do you think it's "cool" when foreign women in Japan cover their mouths when they laugh/giggle? I think it's silly.

That's the kind of thing that bugs me.

Gboothe, when you say the only foreign thing about the guy (an Indian guy who owned a restaurant in Tokyo I think) was his looks, you're starting to sound like Debito! This is Japan where the only thing that equals Japanese is the looks! Because it helps the Japanese figure out if the person in question was raised under the same social/educational/family structure that all Japanese were raised under. It's my belief that this is what prevents Japanese from allowing foreigners onto the home team. So much of what makes up Japanese society is what's pounded into kids at a young age and through the education system and family systems and I don't blame them for believing that only those who have had that exact upbringing and are therefore capable of the group experience that is the root of the japanese existence can truly be "Japanese." Those that were raised differently can be citizens (debito) but that doesn't make them "Japanese". So the Indian guy was no closer to being Japanese than those chicks on youtube.

[Greji]

Speaking of annoying FG's who speak perfect Jap lingo, what about that Kevin guy on TV? I happen to have had the displeasure of meeting this guy on a few occassions and he is just as every bit as annoying as the cocksucker you see on TV.

Shit, I hope he's not lurking around here somewhere.

That's alright, just remember that old Chinese proverb: A cocksucker is a cocksucker is a cocksucker!

[CrankyBastard]

Whenever I'm 'complimented' on my 'Nihongo,' I always do that cursory swift bow like a duck and say, "sumanna"

[kusai Jijii]

This is Japan where the only thing that equals Japanese is the looks! .

With respect, I beg to differ. "Looks" is one (significant - I'll grant you that) aspect of many that determine how "Japaneseness" is constructed. But there are others.

(Take: dont bother reading below here. It's gunna be waaaayyy over your 100% pure Japanese head.)

When you think about it, what qualifies someone as Japanese depends on the situation - whether or not the "pure" Japanese want you included or not. For example, some people say that to be Japanese you have got to have citizenship. But does the average Japanese consider the likes of Asashoryu, Akebono, Debito and the like to be 'real Japanese'? Others say that you need to have a native level command of the language to be considered Japanese. But in the eyes of most Japanese, individuals such as Dave Spector, Daniel Karl, etc. are certainly not Japanese. Even my children, who pass both of the two criteria above are only really considered 'haafu' Japanese by many people here. Some say it is a question of parentage, and refer to idiotic notions of 'blood linage' to define Japaneseness. But how do the nikkeijin stack up on that one?
We could go on and on. Stated simply, the bar gets shifted all the time. The point is that 'Japaneseness' is a social construction. The lines of inclusion and exclusion shift depending on the context in which people want to use 'Japaneseness'. It suits Japan, for example, to have naturalized players in their national sports teams. It doesnt suit Japan to have the zainichi Koreans or Chinese afforded the same entitlements as 'real' Japanese.
Sorry for being longwinded. Anyway, its just my 2 yens worth.
KJ.

[eighty5er]

[INDENT]"...Seeing that you speak Japanese, they will wag their heads and smile condescendingly, and admit to each other that you are really quite intelligent -- much as we would do in the presence of a pig or an ape of somewhat unusual attainments." [/INDENT]

Basil Hall Chamberlain, 1904

[Greji]

you're starting to sound like Debito!

Heaven forbid!

So the Indian guy was no closer to being Japanese than those chicks on youtube.

This is, in a sense, what I was trying to say. To Kume, he was as good of example of an FG as one could get. Yet, in actuallity, the kid was probably 100% Japanese in everything about himself except DNA!

But, I do think the point that Kume was wrong is valid. Where I don't normally get bothered by this name calling, I did think it was extremely bad when a major network, which prides itself in it's liberal views, allows the number one rated host, of the number one rated, nationwide news program to say that it would be better to keep the barbarians stupid.

[ttjereth]

I agree. When in Rome, act like the Romans do (whatever the hell that means!). It can go both ways, when I chat it up with some Japanese person who happened to study say in OZ, they always have that aussie accent. Or better yet, someone who studied back in the UK, they had that very deep Welsh accent, etc. Is that not the same here? If you learn the language in a particular area/region, you will end up picking it up eventually. I had this big friend who lived in Yamagata for a while before moving out to Tokyo and every once in a while when he spoke Japanese, he'd have that Yamagata-ben accent. It was funny as fuck, since he was a big black dude, but never once did I take offense to it...

I used to speak in Tochigi-ben after having lived up in the mountains there for 3 years. You get used to something and it becomes habit, wasn't any posturing or trying to behave more Japanese to it. It's what I heard everyday and I ended up speaking it.

I've just never understood the whole refusing to speak in a proper accent thing. I have a friend who was here with me in university and he ended up staying, was still here when I came back for work. Guy knew more kanji and vocab than I do now, but he always spoke with this horrendously thick American English accent on his Japanese. He was actually way more proficient in the language than I was, but Japanese never thought so because of his refusual to attempt and speak with Japanese accent.

[ttjereth]

Ah, it's not exactly that. Clearly we should all strive for better than fresh off the boat language ability. The stuff that bugs me is more the mannerisms, the overuse of the idiom of the moment, etc. I mean, I wish I could talk like the guys in the yakuza movies but I also realize how absolutely ridiculous I would be if I actually talked like that when drinking with my friends.

How about this: do you think it's "cool" when foreign women in Japan cover their mouths when they laugh/giggle? I think it's silly.

That's the kind of thing that bugs me.

Honestly it doesn't bother me for the most part.

If they are doing it intentionally just to try and be ingratiating, or purposefully flaunt "how Japanese" they are, then I could see it being irritating (I had a friend who would eat natto all the time even though he didn't like it. He would only ever eat it in front of Japanese and there was no reason for it other than to try and impress them or whatever), but for your example of a woman covering her mouth, it doesn't bother me so much because it's just being polite. That's the polite thing to do in Japan and it really doesn't bother me anymore than would a Japanese person saying bless you when someone sneezed back home.

I can understand unneccessarily ingratiating behaviour annoying, but the language (accent) thing has never made sense to me.

I'll take a foreigner who speaks Japanese well enough to sound like a native over one of those jackasses who sounds like an anime character anyday

For the TV personalities, I tend to think I dislike them more because of their personalities (and the whole "dancing foreign monkey" schtick) than because of the way they speak Japanese.

[CrankyBastard]

you are what you are.
you either are or are not Japanese.
that's all there is to it.

[kusai Jijii]

you are what you are.
you either are or are not Japanese.
that's all there is to it.

Crank,

it aint that simple bro.

"You either are or you are not" eh? Ok then. What about Fujimori? What's he?

Are my kids Japanese? Depends who you ask. Do you see where I'm coming from? To say they are Haafu, and that's the way it is, well, IMO, thats just a cop out.

[halfnip]

Crank,

it aint that simple bro.

"You either are or you are not" eh? Ok then. What about Fujimori? What's he?

Are my kids Japanese? Depends who you ask. Do you see where I'm coming from? To say they are Haafu, and that's the way it is, well, IMO, thats just a cop out.

There's nothing wrong with being half. The best of both worlds!

[unkosando]

How about this: do you think it's "cool" when foreign women in Japan cover their mouths when they laugh/giggle? I think it's silly.

I think a lot of these mannerisms are picked up subconsciously to fit into a strange environment.

I have been living in India for a couple of years now and I find myself doing the Indian head nod without thinking.

[kusai Jijii]

[quote="halfnip"]There's nothing wrong with being half. ]

Of course there is "nothing wrong" with being haafu. That's a no brainer. The point is, why do you have to be 'haafu'? It is about as stupid as the arguement that goes "Why cant you be 'double'?". Ethnic identity is a fluid thing. Why the fuck do people want to reduce it to a 'dochi ka? mondai'?

[American Oyaji]

Because labels make people comfortable. If a person can put you in a box, they understand you better, (in their own heads).

I've had trouble dealing with white men with racial issues. I'm a 6'9"(10 in shoes) black guy who does not play basketball or listen to rap music, I sing opera, like country and speak better standard English than most Americans. I'm "weird" and they really wig out because there is no "stereotype" box they can mentally put me in.

When a mentally rigid person cannot classify a person,they have mental breakdowns that are exhibited by odd external behaviours.

[GuyJean]

.. I'm a 6'9"(10 in shoes) black guy...

Man, you got some small feet for such a big guy..

GJ

[hundefar]

Of course there is "nothing wrong" with being haafu. That's a no brainer. The point is, why do you have to be 'haafu'? It is about as stupid as the arguement that goes "Why cant you be 'double'?". Ethnic identity is a fluid thing. Why the fuck do people want to reduce it to a 'dochi ka? mondai'?

I agree very much with you. National identity is a construction and one that is very hard to define accurately as it usually means a lot of different things to many different people. I am a child of two different cultures and never felt that I belonged in any of them and my wife is haafu. My own view is that national identity isn't all that important. In the end it is all about the individual that is standing before you and not how "japanese" or "french" or whatnot they are.

I can't understand how it can be a problem if someone picks up mannerisms from another culture. Hell, it happens all the time through the mass media. When I was a child in Denmark the concept of showing others the middle finger as an insult was completely alien to most danes. Now I can hardly scold a child for throwing rocks at the passing busses without him telling me to "fuck off" and giving me the finger. Hooray for globalisation.

Anyway, identity is a construction and of course words, expressions, mannerism and many other things move freely among people as all other information does. Saying that only people from Nation X is allowed to act in a certain way seems terribly oldfashioned to me. But of course I can relate to the weird experience it can be some times when you see people doing something unexpected that you usually connect with a different culture. Like swedish people slurping their noodles or something...it would surprise me.

[kusai Jijii]

Because labels make people comfortable.

Amen to that!

But why the fuck is it your / my /someone's problem to make "them" feel comfortable?

Its not my intention to over-interlectualize this shit, but, I can see the frustration in my own kids, and to a certain extent I even recognize it in myself; this kind of "Why the fuck do I have to legitimise who I am to you?" Why do I have to explain why I am here? Why do I have to set you at ease, that its all 'ok' by 'proving' that I am proficient in Japanese? Etc etc. Why do I have to pass muster?

I think I have given up on all that shit. I'm no Debito (not that there is anything wrong with him). I just dont want to play 'the game'. If 'they' cant put me in a box, if they cant 'work out' that despite my gaijinness, that I'm 'ok', well then, as far as I am concerned, its not my problem. Fuck 'em.

[ttjereth]

[quote="halfnip"]There's nothing wrong with being half. ]

Or the worst, like that Cyril Takayama magician guy