Mandatory pregnancy, abortion adoption thread

[Iraira]

If you read my first post, you will see that I said I wouldn't bail. My point is, the arguments used to tell men they have to "do the right thing" are the same ones that are shot down when pro-lifers tell women that they have to have children they don't want. Women are well aware of the consequences of fucking too. I think any guy that gets a girl pregnant should take care of the kid if she decides to have it. However, I don't believe he should be legally obligated too.

The law relies on people to behave like humans, which, as we all know they sadly do. Mankind has shown little ability to behave righteously in a trying situation, and if the escape hatch is there, a good proportion of guys would jettison themselves immediately. Laws exist because people are pretty much self-serving assholes who need to be controlled by the threat of jail or financial reaming.

[Samurai_Jerk]

The law relies on people to behave like humans, which, as we all know they sadly do. Mankind has shown little ability to behave righteously in a trying situation, and if the escape hatch is there, a good proportion of guys would jettison themselves immediately. Laws exist because people are pretty much self-serving assholes who need to be controlled by the threat of jail or financial reaming.

Maybe if women were faced with the reality of no court-enforced child support payments from guys that weren't planning on having kids with them, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies and the world would be a better place.

[Iraira]

Maybe if women were faced with the reality of no court-enforced child support payments from guys that weren't planning on having kids with them, there would be fewer unwanted pregnancies and the world would be a better place.

You're also dealing with a religious issue here. Pre-maritial sex is a no-no, as is condom use or any birth control use. Now, let's look at this economically. I'm unable to refrain from having sex, so that is one sin. I shouldn't use birth control, as that would be two sins. Two sins put me deeper in hell, so more and more unplanned pregnancies happen. My college roommate (Catholic) subscribed to this sort of mathematics with his gf. He's paying every month for being good at math, but bad at avoiding insemination.
And just for the sake of it, let's say that the guy decided to take care of the kid after it was born. In that case, she should fork over cash until the kid is 18.

[Mulboyne]

Well, if she makes the choice to have a kid I don't want, why should I have to pay for it? Isn't that forcing me to do something I never agreed to?

This is getting further away from Dreg's original question but there was a case in Britain where this issue was central. It went all the way to the European Court of Human Rights. This dispute wasn't just about potential financial responsibility so much as the responsibility of being a parent:

BBC: Woman loses final embryo appeal

A woman left infertile after cancer therapy has lost her fight to use embryos fertilised by an ex-partner. Natallie Evans, from Trowbridge, Wilts, and Howard Johnston began IVF treatment in 2001 but he withdrew consent for the embryos to be used after they split up. She turned to the European courts after exhausting the UK legal process. Ms Evans, 35, said she was "distraught" after the Grand Chamber of the European Court ruling, but Mr Johnston said "common sense had prevailed".

Ms Evans was diagnosed with ovarian cancer in 2001, but six of the couple's fertilised embryos were frozen and stored prior to her treatment. But she and Mr Johnston, who lives in Gloucester, split up in 2002 and he wrote to the clinic asking for the embryos to be destroyed. Ms Evans took the case to the High Court in 2003 asking to be allowed to use them without Mr Johnston's permission. She has argued he had already consented to their creation, storage and use, and should not be allowed to change his mind.

Current UK laws require both the man and woman to give consent, and allows either party to withdraw that consent up to the point where the embryos are implanted. Ms Evans lost both the case and the appeal and was told she could not take the case to the House of Lords. She then appealed to the European Court of Human Rights, which again ruled against her a year ago.

Her appeal to the Grand Chamber of the European Court under three articles of the European Convention of Human Rights represented her last chance to save the embryos. The court ruled unanimously that there had been no breach of the right to life, but on the right to respect for private and family life and on the prohibition of discrimination the 17 judges ruled 13 to four.

Dr Allan Pacey, secretary of the British Fertility Society, said: "I think it was the only sensible decision which the Grand Chamber could come to. "UK law is clear. It is a principle of shared responsibility." But he added: "We feel dreadfully for Natallie." Dr Tony Calland, chairman of the British Medical Association's medical ethics committee, said the decision was welcome. "Having a child is a life-long undertaking to which both partners should be fully committed."

[tidbits]

From what I understand, you are leaving her (or you want break off ) anyway, so just be very clear with her about this. And she must make her own very urgent decision from here. If she is agaisnt abortion, then she should know she has resposibility in this too. To go on with the pregnancy and deliver the baby is one decision and to give away the baby is another decision. If she is strong enough to continue this pregnancy alone, she 'might' change her mind about giving away later (if she is planing of it). If she want abortion, better do it as early stage as possible.

[kamome]

I think SJ is on the mark here. Several people have said that the man has equal responsibility for the baby. Then why shouldn't he have an equal say in whether he will financially support it? Sure, she should be able to have the baby if she wants it, but if the man is opposed he shouldn't be forced to support her and the baby. While moral reasons exist for supporting the baby, I think women should consider the immorality of entrapping a man through unwanted pregnancy.

[GomiGirl]

Yes it is all fun and games until there is a pregnancy....

[Adhesive]

Yes it is all fun and games until there is a pregnancy....

Oh I don't know...the pregnancy bit can be quite fun as well. It's when the kid pops out that all the trouble starts.

[gomichild]

BTW, GC, if you're pro-life, then you aren't applying a double standard. I'm talking more in general here.

Actually I'm very much pro-choice not pro-life. I am 100% for women being able to safely have an abortion legally if that is the choice they make.

In this case though it's been stated quite clearly that she is opposed to an abortion - and there is no way you can force an abortion on someone or "pressure" someone into doing it.

Also I agree with Iraira - it is a you buy a ticket you take the ride deal. And the decision is more weighted towards the woman because it is her body in question and any kid will the majority of the time be the woman's responsibility.

[ttjereth]

Actually I'm very much pro-choice not pro-life. I am 100% for women being able to safely have an abortion legally if that is the choice they make.

In this case though it's been stated quite clearly that she is opposed to an abortion - and there is no way you can force an abortion on someone or "pressure" someone into doing it.

Also I agree with Iraira - it is a you buy a ticket you take the ride deal. And the decision is more weighted towards the woman because it is her body in question and any kid will the majority of the time be the woman's responsibility.

So what's your opinion on a situation where the man doesn't want an abortion and the woman does. The abortion happens because "it's her body"?

If so, how is that not "forcing an abortion" on somebody?

[gomichild]

Until men have wombs it is always going to be weighted towards the woman.

[Greji]

Until men have wombs it is always going to be weighted towards the woman.

Ahh, can I pass on that?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Actually I'm very much pro-choice not pro-life. I am 100% for women being able to safely have an abortion legally if that is the choice they make.

In this case though it's been stated quite clearly that she is opposed to an abortion - and there is no way you can force an abortion on someone or "pressure" someone into doing it.

Also I agree with Iraira - it is a you buy a ticket you take the ride deal. And the decision is more weighted towards the woman because it is her body in question and any kid will the majority of the time be the woman's responsibility.

So you're saying it's ok that men have zero reproductive rights?

She might not be against abortion. Maybe she's just having the baby to keep him. Plenty of women have tried that before. I say dreg should call her bluff, tell her he's not ready for that, and go home. See if she really wants to have the kid or not. If she gets an abortion, problem solved. If she doesn't, he can alway come back and take care of the kid or send money from home or whatever it is he thinks is appropriate.

He could also take the opposite approach and pull a Hail Mary.

[Iraira]

He could also take the opposite approach and pull a Hail Mary.

Wow, Tom Leykis....that's natsukashi...I wish Japanese girls would adhere to Flash Fridays.

[gomichild]

So you're saying it's ok that men have zero reproductive rights?

No SJ that is not what I said at all. I said such decisions are always weighted more towards women.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Wow, Tom Leykis....that's natsukashi...I wish Japanese girls would adhere to Flash Fridays.

Ain't much to flash.

[Iraira]

Ain't much to flash.

Still, it would make the Friday evening train hell more interesting.

[Samurai_Jerk]

No SJ that is not what I said at all. I said such decisions are always weighted more towards women.

So what kind of legal reproductive rights do you think men should have?


I think my biggest problem is that a man is often unfairly made out to be the bad guy in this type of situation unless he just rolls over and takes whatever the woman decides. Try to convince her to have the baby because you want it and can't bear the idea of abortion? You're a controlling sexist. Try to convince her to have an abortion because you're not ready to have kids? You're a pussy who won't take responsibility.

On the other hand ... say nothing, go along with whatever she decides and spend a life of misery and regret. Good job! You did the right thing.

[hundefar]

I think my biggest problem is that a man is often unfairly made out to be the bad guy in this type of situation unless he just rolls over and takes whatever the woman decides. Try to convince her to have the baby because you want it and can't bear the idea of abortion? You're a controlling sexist. Try to convince her to have an abortion because you're not ready to have kids? You're a pussy who won't take responsibility.

On the other hand ... say nothing, go along with whatever she decides and spend a life of misery and regret. Good job! You did the right thing.

Well, I do see your point. However, I think that you are ignoring the fact that the woman is the pregnant one. A man and a woman are not equals in this situation. You might think that is unfair, but that is just the facts of life. The foetus resides inside the woman, and since it is her body, she has the last word.

BTW, I don't think that you are a controlling sexist if you try and talk the woman out of having an abortion. I also think that it is perfectly fine to say that you think abortion is the best solution. But in the end, in my opinion, the woman should have the last say because of the reason I stated before, and the father should take responsibility. If one doesn't think that is fair, then one should be more careful when getting girls pregnant.

I can add that my own view on abortion is that I believe it should be legal to have one, but I think it is morally wrong to take that choice (and no, not because of religious reasons).

[American Oyaji]

I can add that my own view on abortion is that I believe it should be legal to have one, but I think it is morally wrong to take that choice (and no, not because of religious reasons).

Agreed. But my objection to it is based on religion AND practicality.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I can add that my own view on abortion is that I believe it should be legal to have one, but I think it is morally wrong to take that choice (and no, not because of religious reasons).

I think most reasonable human beings have a problem with abortion. Whether or not they all think it should be legal and available is a different question.

[tidbits]

Both man and woman can never have equal rights. More rights also comes with lots more responsibilities and sacrifices. I have seen more woman have an abortion without even the man knowing it than, woman have baby just to keep the man. There is a friend who found out the boy friend was sleeping around, broke off with him, but was pregnant and decided to keep the baby. She does not want to accept any financial help from the ex or to have anything to do with the him. She is not rich or earning much, she just doesn't want him to send money and one day in future just come back to claim the child.

We really don't know how serious the relationship Dreg had with this girl. I only think to be fair to both, Dreg must be totally honest with her that he will not marry her and do not want to raise the child asap as the fetus is growing everyday, from there Dreg is out of the picture, she must decide for herself, to abort, to keep or to give away later is all up to her, and hopefully she is smart enough not to expect any financial help from the man if she decided to keep the baby (at least not in the long run and in such a long distance)

[ttjereth]

Well, I do see your point. However, I think that you are ignoring the fact that the woman is the pregnant one. A man and a woman are not equals in this situation. You might think that is unfair, but that is just the facts of life. The foetus resides inside the woman, and since it is her body, she has the last word.

See how well that opinion stands up when a woman you are involved with has an abortion against your wishes (like what happened to me) or without even ever mentioning the pregnancy to you until after she had the abortion (as happened to a friend).

[ttjereth]

So what kind of legal reproductive rights do you think men should have?

I think my biggest problem is that a man is often unfairly made out to be the bad guy in this type of situation unless he just rolls over and takes whatever the woman decides. Try to convince her to have the baby because you want it and can't bear the idea of abortion? You're a controlling sexist. Try to convince her to have an abortion because you're not ready to have kids? You're a pussy who won't take responsibility.

On the other hand ... say nothing, go along with whatever she decides and spend a life of misery and regret. Good job! You did the right thing.

Unfortunately, as the man in most countries, you get to live that life of misery and regret even if you don't go along with what she says...

[hundefar]

See how well that opinion stands up when a woman you are involved with has an abortion against your wishes (like what happened to me) or without even ever mentioning the pregnancy to you until after she had the abortion (as happened to a friend).

Please, you actually don't know what I have been through.

[kamome]

So you're saying it's ok that men have zero reproductive rights?

She might not be against abortion. Maybe she's just having the baby to keep him. Plenty of women have tried that before. I say dreg should call her bluff, tell her he's not ready for that, and go home. See if she really wants to have the kid or not. If she gets an abortion, problem solved. If she doesn't, he can alway come back and take care of the kid or send money from home or whatever it is he thinks is appropriate.

He could also take the opposite approach and pull a Hail Mary.

I was such a Tom Leykis fan when I lived in LA. It was on my radio from 4 to 8PM in my car every evening when I was driving around. Looks like we're both drinking the same Kool-Aid.

I think the arguments for "taking responsibility" are perverse and really geared toward forcing men (via guilt or a morality play) into a financial obligation that they should not have to make. Once a woman deprives a man from having any say in the matter and has the baby, he has the right not to support the baby. It's not a "buy the ticket take the ride" scenario in all cases. Both parties are buying a ticket but there may be unintended consequences.

GC, I agree that the decision to have the baby weighs in the woman's favor, but she should have to deal with the financial consequences if the man's feelings are not aligned with hers.

[American Oyaji]

ttjereth,
Try having a wife do such a thing.

[maninjapan]

having recently gone through something like this - it is a tough call.

Just sit her down and talk through the positives and negatives and hopefully you'll come to some kind of agreement!

Good luck - it ain't easy though!

[Mike Oxlong]

Cases where there has been deception are especially difficult. A woman can claim to be using the pill, and then secretly stop using oral contraception (or not be on it in the first place). Conception in this manner is extremely problematic. The man has more of a case should he want to walk, but he still has the issue of his own flesh and blood being raised by a crazy bitch. And the whole "he said, she said" issue should she try to extract some financial support.

[unkosando]

Until men have wombs it is always going to be weighted towards the woman.

I 100% agree with gomichild.

Men have to accept responsiblilty for their actions or they should be using a false identity so its easier to run away.