Slaughtering Whales As an Expression of National Culture

[james]

Wired commentary:

Call me Insensitive.

Call me anything you like, but it needs to be said and I'm going to say it: The Japanese whaling industry should be ashamed for using the "cultural tradition" argument as a justification for carrying on its barbaric practice.

As you read this, a Japanese fleet is scouring the Southern Ocean for whales..more

[Behan]

I just can't beleive that noone seems to know that since the Tokugawa Period Japanese whalers have been sailing the seven seas in steel-hulled diesel-engined ships shooting those bastard whales with explosive tipped harpoons.
During this period teragoya students' kyushoku consisted of mostly whale meat since Buddhism proscribes eating land mammal meat. Now, many elderly people have fond memories of those days.
There are even some esteemed Japanese scholars that claim Amaterasu was enticed out of her cave by the smell of barbecuing whale.

[Iraira]

Ok, I'm kinda in a weird mood. I get that way when I'm waiting for the smack man to arrive. Traditions, traditions, traditions...cut off your daughter's clit so she won't fuck or enjoy fucking...tradition. Slavery...a great tradition for hundreds...thousands of years. Christmas, the tradition of giving presents to each other and claiming that we're celebrating "He-zeus's" b-day. Gobbling down 1000 calorie nitrate-loaded, fat-packed breakfast burritos..tradition. Why not keep all of these great traditions alive or breath new life into them and add mercury-loaded whale to the diet while we're at it?
Traditions need to remain static and must be observed, because they are traditions?

What I'd love to see, just from the "fuck you" aspect of it, is the Aussie navy sink the J-whaling fleet, strafe the water to pick off any survivors, stick their heads on poles and say, "Remind you of Nanking in the 1930's?"

Denial and playing the victim and trying to rationalize (nationalize) everything is also a great tradition.

Time to fix.

[alienchu]

Ok, I'm kinda in a weird mood. I get that way when I'm waiting for the smack man to arrive. Traditions, traditions, traditions...cut off your daughter's clit so she won't fuck or enjoy fucking...tradition. Slavery...a great tradition for hundreds...thousands of years. Christmas, the tradition of giving presents to each other and claiming that we're celebrating "He-zeus's" b-day. Gobbling down 1000 calorie nitrate-loaded, fat-packed breakfast burritos..tradition. Why not keep all of these great traditions alive or breath new life into them and add mercury-loaded whale to the diet while we're at it?
Traditions need to remain static and must be observed, because they are traditions?

What I'd love to see, just from the "fuck you" aspect of it, is the Aussie navy sink the J-whaling fleet, strafe the water to pick off any survivors, stick their heads on poles and say, "Remind you of Nanking in the 1930's?"

Denial and playing the victim and trying to rationalize (nationalize) everything is also a great tradition.

Time to fix.

could not have said it better myself

[Samurai_Jerk]

I ask again. Can someone who is not against eating meat in general tell me why it's wrong to hunt whale if the hunted species is not endangered?

[FG Lurker]

I ask again. Can someone who is not against eating meat in general tell me why it's wrong to hunt whale if the hunted species is not endangered?

I've already done this...

[Samurai_Jerk]

I've already done this...

Not really. You brought in a lot of other issues that could apply to almost any animal one eats.

[Iraira]

I ask again. Can someone who is not against eating meat in general tell me why it's wrong to hunt whale if the hunted species is not endangered?

Ok, lemme throw this back at you...why are you hunting? Shit, supermarket's got all kinda meat (maybe even some that haven't had the expiration dates altered). And, are you hunting for sport, with an exploding harpoon? Be a man, get in the water, look the whale in the eye, pull out a knife. The same goes for hunting lions, tigers, and bears. I'll give Ted Nugent a pass, as he uses a crossbow.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Ok, lemme throw this back at you...why are you hunting? Shit, supermarket's got all kinda meat (maybe even some that haven't had the expiration dates altered). And, are you hunting for sport, with an exploding harpoon? Be a man, get in the water, look the whale in the eye, pull out a knife. The same goes for hunting lions, tigers, and bears. I'll give Ted Nugent a pass, as he uses a crossbow.

Does it upset you that fish get crushed to death in commercial fishing nets? How about cows gets mutilated in slaughter houses? If so, then I can understand where you're coming from. If not, I'd like to hear why harvesting non-endangered species of whale in and of itself is wrong.

Besides, if I wanted whale, I'd get in a restaurant or supermarket. I wouldn't go hunt it myself, so your argument doesn't really apply.

[Iraira]

Does it upset you that fish get crushed to death in commercial fishing nets? How about cows gets mutilated in slaughter houses? If so, then I can understand where you're coming from. If not, I'd like to hear why harvesting non-endangered species of whale in and of itself is wrong.

Besides, if I wanted whale, I'd get in a restaurant or supermarket. I wouldn't go hunt it myself, so your argument doesn't really apply.

We really should kill with our own hands, although it is kinda difficult to get blood stains off a salariman suit. I think what most people mean by "save the whales" is that it generally is an animal with little intrinsic commercial value (given the toxicity of the meat), and to hunt something that really is of negative worth (including the bad press) shows something really pathetic about the Japanese mentality, in general. It's not like people stick whale heads up on the wall next to the white bengal tiger they shot from a safe distance while on safari...weak.
Of course I don't have the source for this next tidbit, but I recall some whaling town setting up an agency to help those fishermen who lost their livlihoods when whaling was stopped (this was awhile ago). They had no ex-whalers at all come in for job-placement. It's not about jobs...and to be honest, if whales really aren't endangered at all (and take into account climactic changes that may affect population sizes in the near future when estimating population growth rates), then grab a few, but just be honest as to why you are grabbing them. But don't be suprised that people get po'ed at you for a myriad of reasons (including those that seem purely "ET is so cute, don't kill him").

[FG Lurker]

Not really. You brought in a lot of other issues that could apply to almost any animal one eats.

Not all animals should be eaten. How about Eagles, shall we go hunting? I'm a pretty good shot -- or at least I used to be, being in Japan is rather limiting on the firearms front.

This was also discussed a year or so ago (two?) as well, I believe you conceded the validity of the points I made at that time.

I also have a question for you... Why SHOULD Japan hunt whale? What valid reasons do you see for the hunt? None of this nansy-pansy "cultural" crap either, it's BS and even the Japanese realize that.

[Buraku]

Japan is hunting outside its own territory in Aussie waters, its basically an intrusion on foreign grounds or foreign waters.

How would the Yankies feel if a bunch of Ruskies and Mexicans started invading America and blasting a few grizzly and bald eagles to 'scientifically' see if they taste OOOooiiissshhiiiiIIEI
I bet America would declare open hunting season on the WOPs not the animal kingdom


BTW Humpbacks ARE ENDANGERED. Rumor has it they are sensitive to environment changes so they ain't like Rats or Rabbits
the Humpback is near extinction and it takes many, many years for a big old Humpback to raise young.
Japan plans to Eat....err..*cough*...I mean research 50 of them

Civilization was supposed to evolve beyond hunter/gatherers that would not keep hunting an animal until there was no more. We developed this thing called farming and agriculture thousands of years ago, so species of cows and sheep wouldn't be going extinct every time a village wanted to get some food. Japan could get past this business if it obeyed the International whaling commission and actually allowed the Whale numbers to grow without some Japan boat blasting them or Japan could try farming these creatures like they farm fish etc. This Japanese failure on an international stage is just one of the many areas in which Japan has failed to evolve as a people.

If Japan is so keen on its old traditions, why won't it allow the native Ainu people to hunt for their Japanese salmon (which aren't endangered)
and more importantly why can't I walk down the street with my samurai swords and have my Hideyoshi slaves chained to their desks working in their little Momoyama sweat shops.

[succubusqueen]

Cultural traditions are important to any nation or culture. Having said that..one thing that really annoys is that the japanese love to cry and whine about the gaijin not understanding "their tradition"....lots of BS. For starters...traditions change, they mutate as the world goes on. Diets also change, after proving that some animals were not meant to be eaten (due to disease transmissions, poisoning or whatever) or when they are at the brink of extinction.

First of all I dont think they need the meat for human comsumption...I mean this is not a poor miserable country that needs to hunt down every living thing. It's just this narrow, stubborn way of always wanting to preserve some "tradition" that is going to die...eventually.

And if its really tradition they should use the ancient wooden boats they used to hunt...like their tradition demands it.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Not all animals should be eaten. How about Eagles, shall we go hunting? I'm a pretty good shot -- or at least I used to be, being in Japan is rather limiting on the firearms front.

This was also discussed a year or so ago (two?) as well, I believe you conceded the validity of the points I made at that time.

I also have a question for you... Why SHOULD Japan hunt whale? What valid reasons do you see for the hunt? None of this nansy-pansy "cultural" crap either, it's BS and even the Japanese realize that.

I don't think Japan should hunt whales. I really don't care one way or the other. I've had whale out of curiosity, but would order beef, chicken, pork, most kinds of seafood, and even basashi before I'd order whale. I don't think it's bad, but it's nothing special.

I would have no problem with people eating eagle either if it wasn't an endangered species of animal. The fact is, MOST people are anti-whaling only because they think whales are cute and smart. Pigs are some the smartest animals around, but hardly anyone gives a shit about them. Most people in the world get worked up about Koreans eating dogs too. Now I understand that dogs raised for food aren't the same as an aminal being hunted down in the wild. But people in general only get worked up because of their emotional attachment to dogs. It's the same with whales.

The only logical argument I've ever heard for not hunting whales is that even non-endangered species of whale can't really sustain their population with wide-scale hunting. I think you posted that on here and I know one other guy who said that to me. However, a friend of a friend is an American biologist who specializes in whale research and said that the whole anti-whaling thing is a load of BS based on people's illogical love of whales. I don't know who's right.

If Japan's methods could be more humane, then protest that. If they are hunting endangered species of whale, then protest that. If they are taking too many to sustain a healthy population for long, then protest that. But telling people in Japan, Norway, and Iceland that whaling is always wrong just because a lot of misguided people think whales are so smart and cute is fucking stupid.

[Iraira]

However, a friend of a friend in an American biologist who specializes in whale research and said that the whole anti-whaling thing is a load of BS based on people's illogical love of whales. I don't know who's right.

Ok, what's the guy's degree in? Cell bio, molecular, etc...any of the following three (friend of a friend of an American biologist) are not qualified to make any scientifically useful comments on demography, unless they've undertaken study in the field. Evol-Ecol degrees with stats backgrounds step to the front of the line. Hi, I'm here, what did you want to know?

[Adhesive]

The only logical argument I've ever heard for not hunting whales is that even non-endangered species of whale can't really sustain their population with wide-scale hunting.

But even that is an argument based on the danger of the species going extinct.

I'm with you, other than an endangerment or general humanity argument, I've never heard a reasonable explanation for being particularly upset with whale hunting. Bald eagles? If they were as plentiful as chickens what would I care if people hunted them?

Now if you want to tell me that whales truly are endangered, or that their numbers are too low to sustain some sort of ecological balance, have at me. I don't know dickcockballs about the number of whales required to be swimming around our oceans at any given time and I'm open to be educated. If it's a humanity argument, that's fine too, but you'd better be equally upset about raising chickens in square-foot cubes of their own feces, then slitting their throats.

[Greji]

but you'd better be equally upset about raising chickens in square-foot cubes of their own feces, then slitting their throats.

Mary had a little lamb,
her father shot it dead,
now it goes to school with her,
between two hunks of bread!

After that remarkable display of the arts, I'm off to KFC for a late lunch!

[Takechanpoo]

First of all, you gaijin dudes need to expel perverted "environmentalists" to get J-nationals' supports. In contemporary Japan criticising whale hunting means traitor or betrayer because these perverted "environmentalists" have insisted zero-sum order against Japan.
It is probably truth that whale hunting have exceeded the domestic demand.
Probably Whale hunting have also become money source of YKZ.

[amdg]

It's either us, or them. What's it gonna be?

[Visitor K]

just wondering how people here feel about the native peoples of north america hunting whales... here is a site with some information and some really beautiful pictures:

http://thewhalehunt.org/statement.html

A thousand-year-old tradition, the Inupiat whale hunt provides the community’s annual food supply, currently limited by international law to 22 whales a year.

...
down where im at in mexico a similar thing happens with sea turtle eggs.. they are supposedly a strong aphrodisiac (suppon was said to have the same qualities if i remember correctly) you can get the eggs on the black market, but there is a pretty hefty penalty for having them..

a problem that i have with japanese whaling and the harvesting of sea turtle eggs is that whales are migratory and don't belong solely to japan.. whales are not only a part of traditional japanese culture, but also part of many other cultures around the world (and it has even been adopted in contemporary western culture with things like whale watching tours). i dont see whaling in and of itself as wrong, but i think japan should be more considerate and respectful of how other cultures are connected to the animals..
i suppose the same argument could be made for the inuit whale hunts as well, but then arguments about the actual necessity of whale meat comes into play (im sure its pretty damn hard to find some tonkatsu or a mcdonalds up in alaska's tundra)..

[Greji]

just wondering how people here feel about the native peoples of north america hunting whales... here is a site with some information and some really beautiful pictures:

http://thewhalehunt.org/statement.html

That doesn't count, that is eskimo cultural research!

[Visitor K]

looks like the australian government is stepping up the conflict, should get interesting:

Canberra to monitor Japan whalers

Australia will send a patrol ship and aircraft to monitor Japan's whaling fleet off Antarctica, the government in Canberra has said.
....
The two vessels would collect photographic and video evidence of the fleet's activities to help Canberra decide if it could take action against the whalers in international courts, the minister said.

[GuyJean]

Japan 'Backs Down on Humpback Hunt'
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,22950237-23109,00.html

JAPAN has apparently agreed not to kill humpback whales during its current Antarctic hunt, the US ambassador to Tokyo said today, a move that could help ease criticism of its controversial whaling program.

Japan's whaling fleet set sail last month with plans to catch more than 1000 whales, including 50 humpbacks, which are popular among whale-watchers for their distinctive silhouettes and acrobatic leaps, before returning to port early next year.

Humpbacks were hunted to near extinction until the International Whaling Commission ordered their protection in 1966 and the planned hunt had sparked a loud outcry from activists.

"I think we had an agreement ... between the United States and Japan that humpback whales would not be harvested, I think, until maybe the International Whaling Conference in June,'' US ambassador to Japan Thomas Schieffer said.

Because of migration patterns, the delay would mean it would be "a while before they are at risk again,'' Mr Schieffer said.
..

GJ

[GomiGirl]

I think this is probably due to the glut of whale meat on the market. People just aren't buying it like they used to. This demand/supply economics is the only way to stop Japan from killing whales.

Personally I think the rest of the world needs to remember that it wasn't Japan that caused the near extinction of whales as it has been a source of food for hundreds of years. Just my two yen.

[Takechanpoo]

to stop Japan from killing whales

Introduce me the cult orgaization which make its believer worship whale as a god.

[hundefar]

Introduce me the cult orgaization which make its believer worship whale as a god.

http://www.seashepherd.org/

[Greji]

http://www.seashepherd.org/

That is definitely the God of some people. BTW, hundefar don't the hardy people of Norge like an occasional whale burger?

[Samurai_Jerk]

That is definitely the God of some people. BTW, hundefar don't the hardy people of Norge like an occasional whale burger?

I think the Norwegians and the Icelanders both are into whaling.

[GomiGirl]

Introduce me the cult orgaization which make its believer worship whale as a god.

Take - you quoted me out of context. I don't believe that Japan should be forced to stop killing whales. As long as the whales are not taken from restricted waters and their numbers are preserved I think that is all fine. I personally don't care for the taste of it, but hey it is a traditional food source.

If people object to whale meat being eaten so much, the only way to stop it is to influence the buying habits. No demand = no supply.

It is like people from India trying to stop Americans eating hamburgers as it involves killing the sacred cow. Everybody will just tell people from India to back off and not try to interfere with a traditional food source.

[Mike Oxlong]

As long as the whales are not taken from restricted waters and their numbers are preserved I think that is all fine.

I think that's a key point...whaling in an international sanctuary is should be considered poaching. The Aussies, or any other nation should be able to blast the poachers.