Buying/Building a house/Imported Houses

[Behan]

Just a quick, useless post.
I think I posted it earlier, but I liked Selco homes. They looked really nice and there was the option of getting 2x6 studs. Obviously, they are a lot bigger so your house is more likely to withstand an earthquake.
In at least some of their houses they had a fan ventilation system to pull moisture out of the walls.
Somewhere somebody said that there was a kind of insulation that retained less moisture than glass fiber. Maybe more expensive but perhaps worth it.
We would have built a Selco home if the bank financing had come through.
Anyway, please forgive my blabbering and good luck with your house.

[james]

I really wish I could talk to someone who has actually ordered a kit from overseas and had it built by a Japanese construction company to find out how much more trouble it was and how much cheaper it worked out overall...

this is another venue that i looked at briefly, ironically after we'd decided not to build. the outfit i was looking at is based out of quebec, called bonneville.

talking to a friend of mine who has gone ahead with them (unfortunately for us, in canada so not much relevant experience there) and on the surface at least it seems a good deal more economical. how this would play out after shipping, import duties and getting local contractors to put it together is anyone's guess. they claim to ship "all four corners of the globe" or some such but whether they've ever done anything in japan they don't specifically state.

i may go ahead and order a catlogue / dvd just for shits and giggles. if i get it, you'd be welcome to borrow it.

[james]

Imported houses can be much better suited to the Japanese climate than Japanese houses if built and insulated right. If possible, frame the outside walls using 2 x 6 studs]haaaate[/I] having to paint, so you might want to do it yourself after he's put in the drywall - that and the spackling and sanding, and sanding and spackling...it never seems to end when you're in the midst of it.

agreed on all counts - i fail to see how a well insulated house would be warmer in the summer. ottawa gets every bit as humid as it does out here in shimane, goes through much more extreme temperature fructuations and gets about the same amount of snow as we do up in the mountains and the house was always comfortable.

the bit about the windows and faucets is spot on and you can save a bunch if you can import them yourself. i went through the quotes we were given with a fine tooth comb and very common stuff that was easily had in canada or the u.s. which would be considered very high quality here was marked up significantly. kitchens are another area where if you shop around properly you can do much better in. i really hate the "system kitchens" and much prefer a traditional counter-top with simple real wooden cabinets. i don't really need my cupboards to withstand an 800 degree incendiary blast, thanks.

i also hate the ubiquitous wallpaper and ceiling paper and while we were in negotiations it was something i insisted on not being done. i told them flat out they prep it so we can paint ourselves or there'd be nothing further to discuss!

not sure how available decent interior paints are here. i've seen some stuff on yahoo, but nothing like back in canada. supply and demand i guess. so for those planning on painting, it's something you should perhaps add to your list of stuff to have brought over.

[Grumblebum]

If anyone is interested I can comment with some authority on Florence Gardens - our house was built by them.

Their constuction style is 2x6 stud external walls with 2x4 internal walls.
Their specialty is designs with basements, which was one of the deciding factors in choosing them.

Price wise they are very competitive when you include the basement - unlike a lot of other builders they don't charge a higher price/tsubo for the underground part (Mill Creek quoted us nearly 1,000,000yen/tsubo for a basement!!)
Also, they were very open about their pricing breakdowns and were very co-operative with us supplying our own stuff (internal fixtures at least) if we could find a more competitive price.

We did run into some problems with them, but nothing that couldn't have been avoided had we been a little more patient. If anyone wants the gory details feel free to ask. However said problems don't have anything to do with construction quality or dishonesty or anything like that.
If we had to build again we'd give serious consideration to using them again.

Just read the comments about wallpaper - when we were building I also wanted to paint, since at the time I thought painting would be easier to maintain. However after doing a fair bit of research I relented and we went with wallpaper. And I have to admit I'm not disappointed - the massive variety available meant that we didn't have much trouble finding stuff which suited us, and didn't really look very 'wallpaperish'. I'm also impressed by its strength - in the year and a half since we moved in there have been quite a few bangs against walls which definitely would have left some serious scratches and marks had it been paint. But with the wallpaper not a thing.

[Catoneinutica]

If anyone is interested I can comment with some authority on Florence Gardens - our house was built by them.

Their constuction style is 2x6 stud external walls with 2x4 internal walls.
Their specialty is designs with basements, which was one of the deciding factors in choosing them.

Price wise they are very competitive when you include the basement - unlike a lot of other builders they don't charge a higher price/tsubo for the underground part (Mill Creek quoted us nearly 1,000,000yen/tsubo for a basement!!)
Also, they were very open about their pricing breakdowns and were very co-operative with us supplying our own stuff (internal fixtures at least) if we could find a more competitive price.

We did run into some problems with them, but nothing that couldn't have been avoided had we been a little more patient. If anyone wants the gory details feel free to ask. However said problems don't have anything to do with construction quality or dishonesty or anything like that.
If we had to build again we'd give serious consideration to using them again.

Just read the comments about wallpaper - when we were building I also wanted to paint, since at the time I thought painting would be easier to maintain. However after doing a fair bit of research I relented and we went with wallpaper. And I have to admit I'm not disappointed - the massive variety available meant that we didn't have much trouble finding stuff which suited us, and didn't really look very 'wallpaperish'. I'm also impressed by its strength - in the year and a half since we moved in there have been quite a few bangs against walls which definitely would have left some serious scratches and marks had it been paint. But with the wallpaper not a thing.

2 x 6 external walls are great. Great energy (and acoustic) insulation, and you can set the windows into the wall, rather than flush with it, creating a nice little sill that you can hide behind when you throw your unburnable garbage out

You're probably right about wallpaper actually being easier to maintain in the long run. My first experience with it here was at my wife's condo, and I remember being annoyed that the builder hadn't provided her with any extra wallpaper for patching and repairs. With painted walls, I just keep some putty, primer, and paint handy for when I make 18 nail holes just to hang one painting. Dirt comes off easily with that white eraser-like cleaning material they sell at supermarkets and 100-yen shops.

[ttjereth]

Just a quick, useless post.
I think I posted it earlier, but I liked Selco homes. They looked really nice and there was the option of getting 2x6 studs. Obviously, they are a lot bigger so your house is more likely to withstand an earthquake.
In at least some of their houses they had a fan ventilation system to pull moisture out of the walls.
Somewhere somebody said that there was a kind of insulation that retained less moisture than glass fiber. Maybe more expensive but perhaps worth it.
We would have built a Selco home if the bank financing had come through.
Anyway, please forgive my blabbering and good luck with your house.

Selco looks to be running about 35man per tsubo. At this point I honestly don't even care what the outside of the house looks like anymore, so whatever company can build me a house with the rooms and such I need that won't fall apart in 20 years for the cheapest amount of money wins.

I should have all of the sales people scheduled to visit at the same time and let them fight it out

[ttjereth]

this is another venue that i looked at briefly, ironically after we'd decided not to build. the outfit i was looking at is based out of quebec, called bonneville.

talking to a friend of mine who has gone ahead with them (unfortunately for us, in canada so not much relevant experience there) and on the surface at least it seems a good deal more economical. how this would play out after shipping, import duties and getting local contractors to put it together is anyone's guess. they claim to ship "all four corners of the globe" or some such but whether they've ever done anything in japan they don't specifically state.

i may go ahead and order a catlogue / dvd just for shits and giggles. if i get it, you'd be welcome to borrow it.

Let me know if you order it, and I'll do the same. Just spent 5000 yen on books from Amazon to find out some more about the whole import home thing here. The agents are obviously not going to give me the straight skinny, so hopefully I can find some useful info in the books

[ttjereth]

If anyone is interested I can comment with some authority on Florence Gardens - our house was built by them.

Their constuction style is 2x6 stud external walls with 2x4 internal walls.
Their specialty is designs with basements, which was one of the deciding factors in choosing them.

Price wise they are very competitive when you include the basement - unlike a lot of other builders they don't charge a higher price/tsubo for the underground part (Mill Creek quoted us nearly 1,000,000yen/tsubo for a basement!!)
Also, they were very open about their pricing breakdowns and were very co-operative with us supplying our own stuff (internal fixtures at least) if we could find a more competitive price.

We did run into some problems with them, but nothing that couldn't have been avoided had we been a little more patient. If anyone wants the gory details feel free to ask. However said problems don't have anything to do with construction quality or dishonesty or anything like that.
If we had to build again we'd give serious consideration to using them again.

Just read the comments about wallpaper - when we were building I also wanted to paint, since at the time I thought painting would be easier to maintain. However after doing a fair bit of research I relented and we went with wallpaper. And I have to admit I'm not disappointed - the massive variety available meant that we didn't have much trouble finding stuff which suited us, and didn't really look very 'wallpaperish'. I'm also impressed by its strength - in the year and a half since we moved in there have been quite a few bangs against walls which definitely would have left some serious scratches and marks had it been paint. But with the wallpaper not a thing.

Please do share the gory details. Any and all information is welcome at this point.

We are thus far less than impressed with Tokyo Homes Mill Creek as well. They run somewhere around 800,000 yen per tsubo standard for the more expensive models, and overall I just wasn't impressed with the place after actually seeing it. There's a hell of a lot of dead, or more less wasted space (like the huge amounts of open pointless "flex" space around each and every stairwell landing) and with the outrageous prices they charge per tsubo I just couldn't see paying extra for space I'd have to struggle to figure out how to use.

If you recall and don't mind, I'd really appreciate it if you could let us know what Florence Houses price per tsubo was for your place. This is by far and away the main factor for us right now, and I've actually been digging around for info on as many companies as I can. I'll put a list in here actually, as others may find it useful.

[ttjereth]

[ttjereth]

If anyone is interested I can comment with some authority on Florence Gardens - our house was built by them.

Their constuction style is 2x6 stud external walls with 2x4 internal walls.
Their specialty is designs with basements, which was one of the deciding factors in choosing them.

Price wise they are very competitive when you include the basement - unlike a lot of other builders they don't charge a higher price/tsubo for the underground part (Mill Creek quoted us nearly 1,000,000yen/tsubo for a basement!!)
Also, they were very open about their pricing breakdowns and were very co-operative with us supplying our own stuff (internal fixtures at least) if we could find a more competitive price.

We did run into some problems with them, but nothing that couldn't have been avoided had we been a little more patient. If anyone wants the gory details feel free to ask. However said problems don't have anything to do with construction quality or dishonesty or anything like that.
If we had to build again we'd give serious consideration to using them again.

Just read the comments about wallpaper - when we were building I also wanted to paint, since at the time I thought painting would be easier to maintain. However after doing a fair bit of research I relented and we went with wallpaper. And I have to admit I'm not disappointed - the massive variety available meant that we didn't have much trouble finding stuff which suited us, and didn't really look very 'wallpaperish'. I'm also impressed by its strength - in the year and a half since we moved in there have been quite a few bangs against walls which definitely would have left some serious scratches and marks had it been paint. But with the wallpaper not a thing.

Just thought of another question actually.

You said you did a basement, and I'm curious how well has that worked out for you? Most of the places I've spoken to have tried to talk me out of it because of mold/moisture problems and such, but what's your actual experience? Any worse than back home?

[Bucky]

Yeah, I hear that a lot too, thing is, I haven't seen any imported homes that have been around for very long in Japan, so I'm starting to wonder if this isn't just a myth. The few older import homes (and I'm not even talking terribly old, but like in the 10 year range) already had quite a bit of visible wear on the exterior. Even one of the model homes we visited...

A lot of that has to do with a lack of up-keep. In the mid eighties the US wood products industry build a structure out near the Tama River just off the Shintamagawa line. It was called the Summit House and was to demonstrate the superior house-building techniques of western homes. Now I have not been out there for years but I went by the house about 10 years after it had been built and paint was peeling off the walls, the landscaping had all gone to seed and it was an embarrassment. Whoever took over the house used it for an office an totally ignored upkeep.

Of course when it was built it looked great, but you can't throw a house up and expect it to look great without some maintenence. You should repaint a wood-sided home every 5-10 years otherwise they will look like shit.

Story on the Summit House http://www.apa-europe.org/Languages/English/News/casestudies.php?cid=2§ion=Case%20Studies

[Catoneinutica]

this is another venue that i looked at briefly, ironically after we'd decided not to build. the outfit i was looking at is based out of quebec, called bonneville.

talking to a friend of mine who has gone ahead with them (unfortunately for us, in canada so not much relevant experience there) and on the surface at least it seems a good deal more economical. how this would play out after shipping, import duties and getting local contractors to put it together is anyone's guess. they claim to ship "all four corners of the globe" or some such but whether they've ever done anything in japan they don't specifically state.

i may go ahead and order a catlogue / dvd just for shits and giggles. if i get it, you'd be welcome to borrow it.

It's funny, with both houses we've built to date, it was necessary to be adamant with the builder about not wanting wallpaper. After they'd finally conceded the first floor, they'd say, but certainly you don't want painted walls on the second floor? Yeah, as a matter of fact, I do! They'd try to enlist the sympathy of my wife, and imply that I was being some kind of unreasonable psycho-gaijin for wanting painted walls and ceilings not just on the first floor, but throughout the house. Even in the bathrooms!

As for the prices of hardware, faucets, windows, etc., I realized how overpriced builders are here when I saw a Baldwin brass entry lockset in a builder's catalogue for 180,000 yen. I went back to the states and got exactly the same unit for $550. I got a set of 10 brass door lever sets on eBay for $180. Shipping was $100, but still dirt cheap.

[Nobody]

Thank you all for the information on builders, prices per tsubo, advantages of 2x4 wood frame construction, etc. That's very helpful.

After a bit of research, I am convinced now about the superiority of 2x4 (or 2x6 or 2xwhatever) wood frame construction in terms of earthquake and fire resistance, and insulation. I'll go this way - finances allowing.

I thought that only imported homes were built this way, but I understand now that Japanese builders (Mitsui Home and Sumitomo Fudosan for example) have been building them for decades.　Here is Mitsui Home's entry model, starting at 15,015,000 yens.
http://www.mitsuihome.co.jp/product/vario.net/price/price.html

I think I'll go to the model houses during the coming renkyu.

Another (ugly) page with prices ranges per tsubo (on the right)
http://emontoshi.seesaa.net/category/1292682-1.html
Some of the info is outdated though.

[james]

As for the prices of hardware, faucets, windows, etc., I realized how overpriced builders are here when I saw a Baldwin brass entry lockset in a builder's catalogue for 180,000 yen. I went back to the states and got exactly the same unit for $550. I got a set of 10 brass door lever sets on eBay for $180. Shipping was $100, but still dirt cheap.

you crazy psycho you! wanting to paint both downstairs and upstairs. better get that head of yours checked. where did you get your paint? there are definitely deals to be had if you shop around. you can even save a lot on shipping if you don't mind waiting 8 weeks to get the stuff off the slow boat (just make sure it's well packed!)

one of the reasons i would prefer painting is that rather than having to strip / replace wallpaper, you just putty and repaint where needed. you can also get the exact coloration you want, and if you want to add a bit of an accent, you can just put up a bit of trim that the wife picks out.

it's getting the larger items that i wish were easier. i know nothing about renting and filling containers stateside to be shipped over. no idea how complicated or expensive that is, but another thing i found to be disgustingly overpriced here is garage doors and openers. usually by a factor of at least 3 or 4 for the door itself and sometimes by a factor of 5 for the opener.

[Nobody]

If you're handy with tools, or if you can get a contractor interested in working for you, maybe you could purchase one of these kits.

http://kithouse.info/cooper.html
http://kithouse.info/

I understand it's a system where the vendor of the kit builds the shell for you (foundations, walls, roof) and lets you do the rest. The kits look like imported.
I didn't searched their site further so I don't know if you can really save money this way .... and if these are quality products.

Back to work

[ttjereth]

My parent's in law want a fucking elevator in the house if it's going to be three stories.

In return I have suggested that they will have no need to go upstairs should their legs ever fail them since I am already agonizing over how to manage having two rooms for them on the first floor of any house we build.

This is slowly starting to drive me insane.

We are looking at a total building area of just about 100 tsubo (all floors, actual footprint probably about 50 tsubo) which makes the math really easy when calculating price based on cost per tsubo, but also makes me want to cry at even the average priced companies sales people

[ttjereth]

If you're handy with tools, or if you can get a contractor interested in working for you, maybe you could purchase one of these kits.

http://kithouse.info/cooper.html
http://kithouse.info/

I understand it's a system where the vendor of the kit builds the shell for you (foundations, walls, roof) and lets you do the rest. The kits look like imported.
I didn't searched their site further so I don't know if you can really save money this way .... and if these are quality products.

Back to work

Their prices are terrible though! Their biggest kit comes in at about 45tsubo total floor space and runs 10,710,000 which comes out to about 238,000 per tsubo just for the building not including any of the construction or finishing work. Construction costs alone often end up more expensive than the cost of the building itself, so getting a package from them completely finished you are easily looking at a total cost of 500,000 per tsubo for a plan with no flexibility (and only about half the size we need).

Might be good if you are willing and able to build the thing yourself, but if that's the case you can still find better deals with local "house maker" kits.

I'm talking with the pmhi folks Bucky linked earlier now, will post the details when I get them. Thus far they are fairly knowledgeable and friendly, but I haven't seen any actual quotes yet. On top of that, again anything gotten from them is then going to have to be assembled by a construction company here and they recommend you buy their kits that don't include any of the plumbing and electrical since the odds are you wouldn't be able to use most of it due to Japanese building codes.

[Grumblebum]

Wallpaper - I made sure that the builders knew I wanted any leftovers or cutoffs kept for future maintenance. So we have several metres of each type of wallpaper spare if we need it. I asked for the same thing where tiles were used also (kitchen and others) so I have spare tiles too.

Gory details - Florence Garden gave us 2 quotes initially - one for a total custom design, and another cheaper quote for one of their pre-approved designs. Since there was a 3 million yen difference between the 2, we went with the pre-approved one, based on the assurance that the interior layout could be changed to our preference. Essentially, the pre-approved part only applies to the main structure.
However, what we didn't realise at the time was that there was no professional designer assigned to help with any changes we wanted to make to the layout. And we wanted a *lot* of changes. So in our ignorance we spent months trying to come up with a good layout we could live with, with only the salesman and the assigned drafting person to check it. As a result, we made several mistakes which I'm going to have to remedy at some point.
In hindsight I should have paid the extra and gone for a total custom design since that higher price included a designer, and we wouldn't have spent so much time tearing hair out trying to fit what we wanted into a set building shape.

On one hand I feel the salesman is responsible for not realising that the pre-approved plan wasn't going to meet our needs without the services of a real designer, but on the other hand I have to take some responsibility for not taking a step back and seeing how things were heading.
Basically, my advice is if you are offered a pre-approved or fixed price plan, find out whether an actual designer will be available to consult on any changes you want to make.
And by designer I mean just that - not just an architect - this is the mistake I made, in assuming that the architect would give us some advice, when in fact all they were doing was drawing what they were told to draw.

Price - the final price for our place worked out to about 55man/tsubo. However that includes some landscaping, and various fixtures which probably wouldn't normally be included. Take all of that away and I think the base price/tsubo would be around 50man.
However, something to keep in mind is that that price is includes a full size concrete basement, fully insulated, double glazed windows throughout (argon filled ones apparently), and hardwood floor for the living/dining room.

Basement - yes, we heard the same things regarding mold and moisture. And you do need to be careful. I left the basement as unfinished drywall, and during our first Summer here I found some mold on the lower part of some walls - the humidity in the basement easily hit 80% so in Summer we had dehumidifiers running a lot of the time. The 24 hour air circulation system isn't strong enough around floor level in the basement so I'm going to be putting in an air conditioner primarily for humidity control along with some fans for extra circulation.
All that said though, I'm still glad we went with the basement. Humidity in Summer is a problem, but not an insurmountable one, and to us its worth it for the extra space and flexibility it gives us.

I've been reading some of the posts about prices/tsubo and I have to be honest, based on what we looked at when we built, I think you'd be extremely lucky to be able to do a 2x4 or 2x6 house of decent quality here for less than 45-50man.

If anyone is interested I can post photos taken during the construction of our place on my website.

[james]

My parent's in law want a fucking elevator in the house if it's going to be three stories.

i'm sorry, but i just can't help laughing.. i still feel having your in-laws move in with you is a HUGE mistake. not saying this to be critical, just that i hate to see this happen to almost anyone. if they're driving you insane now, i don't see it getting any better for you.

[Grumblebum]

We are looking at a total building area of just about 100 tsubo (all floors, actual footprint probably about 50 tsubo)

Holy crap, that's huge!!

Now I understand why you're trying to find such low pricing..

Our whole house is only 48 tsubo, but then there's only 3 of us living here..

[james]

If you're handy with tools, or if you can get a contractor interested in working for you, maybe you could purchase one of these kits.

http://kithouse.info/cooper.html
http://kithouse.info/

I understand it's a system where the vendor of the kit builds the shell for you (foundations, walls, roof) and lets you do the rest. The kits look like imported.
I didn't searched their site further so I don't know if you can really save money this way .... and if these are quality products.

Back to work

these look quite interesting. i wonder what would be involved in putting one together (ie: how much knowledge / advanced tool use) or if they give seminars on how to do it. i'm a very much hands on kind of guy but sorely lacking in knowledge and experience.

[ttjereth]

Wallpaper - I made sure that the builders knew I wanted any leftovers or cutoffs kept for future maintenance. So we have several metres of each type of wallpaper spare if we need it. I asked for the same thing where tiles were used also (kitchen and others) so I have spare tiles too.

Gory details - Florence Garden gave us 2 quotes initially - one for a total custom design, and another cheaper quote for one of their pre-approved designs. Since there was a 3 million yen difference between the 2, we went with the pre-approved one, based on the assurance that the interior layout could be changed to our preference. Essentially, the pre-approved part only applies to the main structure.
However, what we didn't realise at the time was that there was no professional designer assigned to help with any changes we wanted to make to the layout. And we wanted a *lot* of changes. So in our ignorance we spent months trying to come up with a good layout we could live with, with only the salesman and the assigned drafting person to check it. As a result, we made several mistakes which I'm going to have to remedy at some point.
In hindsight I should have paid the extra and gone for a total custom design since that higher price included a designer, and we wouldn't have spent so much time tearing hair out trying to fit what we wanted into a set building shape.

On one hand I feel the salesman is responsible for not realising that the pre-approved plan wasn't going to meet our needs without the services of a real designer, but on the other hand I have to take some responsibility for not taking a step back and seeing how things were heading.
Basically, my advice is if you are offered a pre-approved or fixed price plan, find out whether an actual designer will be available to consult on any changes you want to make.
And by designer I mean just that - not just an architect - this is the mistake I made, in assuming that the architect would give us some advice, when in fact all they were doing was drawing what they were told to draw.

Price - the final price for our place worked out to about 55man/tsubo. However that includes some landscaping, and various fixtures which probably wouldn't normally be included. Take all of that away and I think the base price/tsubo would be around 50man.
However, something to keep in mind is that that price is includes a full size concrete basement, fully insulated, double glazed windows throughout (argon filled ones apparently), and hardwood floor for the living/dining room.

Basement - yes, we heard the same things regarding mold and moisture. And you do need to be careful. I left the basement as unfinished drywall, and during our first Summer here I found some mold on the lower part of some walls - the humidity in the basement easily hit 80% so in Summer we had dehumidifiers running a lot of the time. The 24 hour air circulation system isn't strong enough around floor level in the basement so I'm going to be putting in an air conditioner primarily for humidity control along with some fans for extra circulation.
All that said though, I'm still glad we went with the basement. Humidity in Summer is a problem, but not an insurmountable one, and to us its worth it for the extra space and flexibility it gives us.

I've been reading some of the posts about prices/tsubo and I have to be honest, based on what we looked at when we built, I think you'd be extremely lucky to be able to do a 2x4 or 2x6 house of decent quality here for less than 45-50man.

If anyone is interested I can post photos taken during the construction of our place on my website.

Thanks so much for the info. Every little bit of intel I can get to use against the enemy sales agents helps.

The land we're looking at is huge and we won't be using more than about 1/3 of it for actually building the house, so we may just end up skipping on the basement and aiming towards making additions in the future if necessary. Also goingto skip on a third floor for the time being, because apparently having one jumps the cost per tsubo by about 5 man, and we can easily fit all the space we need into two floors (hell we can nearly fit it into one floor with the piece of land we're buying...)

Trying to cut costs everywhere. The 45-50 man per tsubo is a truly painful bit of news. We're trying to keep things as low as possible since we looking at around 100 tsubo of total floor space, + 1,500,000 yen for the goddamn land and I really don't want to spend a half a million U.S. dollars on this house...

We'll probably be going with a custom plan, since there is practically no way to fit everything we want/need into the standard plans offered.

In my desperation I've started playing the lottery

[ttjereth]

i'm sorry, but i just can't help laughing.. i still feel having your in-laws move in with you is a HUGE mistake. not saying this to be critical, just that i hate to see this happen to almost anyone. if they're driving you insane now, i don't see it getting any better for you.

Well for the next 5 or more years they will only occasionally be living with us, but mainly still living in their tokyo house (father in law has decided to keep his company open until it runs into the ground and they both still have parents alive to look after in Tokyo), but they're fronting us 600,000 yen for the atama-kin on the loan (co-signing the loan so we don't have to pay bullshit inheritance tax), eventually chipping in another 1,000,000 yen and paying 100,000 a month in rent to us to live there.

Which all makes it even harder to say no (more so than the whole "no, go die alone, old and feeble in Tokyo while we move to our nice new home" thing...)

But since we've scrapped even the possibility of a third floor, the elevator is now gone.

Oddly enough, I get along with my father in law more than my mother in law, but the mother in law is being fairly reasonable while the father in law is the one driving me up a fricking wall.

[ttjereth]

Holy crap, that's huge!!

Now I understand why you're trying to find such low pricing..

Our whole house is only 48 tsubo, but then there's only 3 of us living here..

I know, it's insane. Somethings gotta give somewhere... wish I could buy cheaper land, but the wife refuses to be too far out in the boonies. Current chunk is literally 5 minutes from the station...

[Grumblebum]

I know, it's insane. Somethings gotta give somewhere... wish I could buy cheaper land, but the wife refuses to be too far out in the boonies. Current chunk is literally 5 minutes from the station...

What area is your land in? You said 1.5million for the land but I'm guessing that should be 15million?
Yeah, if your land is as big as you say (150 tsubo?) then you really don't need a basement..

If you want a solidly constructed house I really think 2x4 is the way to go, but I'd say the only way you'll get the price down to the level you're talking about is to pay for the design and construction of only the absolute essentials - literally just the basic house structure itself with no finishing and only the barest minimum of fixtures.
And then do everything else yourself, or pay to get it done when you can.

I will say this though - I don't know what your financial situation is, but assuming you're getting a loan for 20 years or something like that, if it comes down to the difference between a well built house you'll be happy with for those 20 or so years, or a place you'll be forever annoyed with because you skimped a bit to save a few million yen, you're much better off getting that few million more on the loan.
Over the period of the loan that few million probably won't make a huge difference to your repayments, and in my opinion skimping when you're building a house you expect to be in for 20 or so years just isn't worth it.

[ttjereth]

What area is your land in? You said 1.5million for the land but I'm guessing that should be 15million?
Yeah, if your land is as big as you say (150 tsubo?) then you really don't need a basement..

Yeah, sorry, 15,000,000 yen, must have missed a zero or something. Up north in Tochigi, but we may be changing the land as well. I've been through our plans cutting out everything we possibly can and have got the overall plan down to about 70 tsubo, so we could theoretically get a smaller piece of land for less money as well. If the wife has her way we'll get a smaller piece of land for the same amount of money, but closer to tokyo...

If you want a solidly constructed house I really think 2x4 is the way to go, but I'd say the only way you'll get the price down to the level you're talking about is to pay for the design and construction of only the absolute essentials - literally just the basic house structure itself with no finishing and only the barest minimum of fixtures.
And then do everything else yourself, or pay to get it done when you can.

Probably going to go for 2x4 or 2x6 (several of the companies we are talking with use those methods exclusively) and we're already planning to do all the landscaping ourselves, for most of the fixtures (inner doors, door handles, blah blah) we're just going to go with the cheapest sturdy things we can find as neither of us really cares too much about those particular details (I lie, my wife would completely bankrupt me buying the most expensive of everything if she could).

The only real interior details we are really set on are the bathrooms and kitchen (more or less the most expensive details of course) but I have a friend up in Tochigi works for Inax and can get us deals on water/sewage related bits (assuming we still move to Tochigi...)

I will say this though - I don't know what your financial situation is, but assuming you're getting a loan for 20 years or something like that, if it comes down to the difference between a well built house you'll be happy with for those 20 or so years, or a place you'll be forever annoyed with because you skimped a bit to save a few million yen, you're much better off getting that few million more on the loan.
Over the period of the loan that few million probably won't make a huge difference to your repayments, and in my opinion skimping when you're building a house you expect to be in for 20 or so years just isn't worth it.

Definitely good advice. This is part of the reason I'd rather have more land than we need than just enough to fit the house. I'd like to have extra room should I ever actually be able to build on to the house (for important stuff like the pool table)

We're currently rehammering out our plans, trying to do away with any and all "unnecessary" space. As it stand the second floor of the house is starting to look like you are going to go up the stairs and just be faced with 5 doors. No hallway, landings or anything

Hopefully we'll find something doable. At the moment Selco and one or two other companies ensure us they can do something at 300,000 yen per tsubo, but I'm not sure what all that will actually include. We don't have a lot of liquid assets at the moment, so when I finally have a finished budget, they cannot go over it, not matter what, reading most of the Japanese sites about building a house it seems almost matter of fact that they will run at least a few million yen over your budget, so I'm going to have to make whoever we end up going with understand that that is not an option with us

[PINK-STEEL]

I may be repeating what others have already said, but as I haven't looked through the entire thread, I'll go ahead anyway.

When we (me and "she who must be obeyed and sprayed") built our house about 5 years ago, I remember going through similar bullshit. It seems that the bigger building companies are, the more difficult and inflexible they can be. What worked for us in the end was looking around carefully for a good real estate agent who by acting as a go-between then put us onto a great building company (obviously picking up a commission from both ends).

He first guaranteed quality and customer-service from the company he introduced and emphasized the fact that we could call the building guys over to change plans as much as we liked. So there was a big "enryo-naku" from my end believe you me...we changed the floor plans etc. time and time again, tested their paitence and got what we (or more accurately, my wife) wanted.

If you can do that, then tell them the budget (max) straight up and tell them you want the "rolls royce" package at a "toyota corolla" price. Also, remind them every now and then you are 検討-ing other options, so it's up to them to convince you!!! You soon sort out the roses from the compost by doing this, I found.

Also, look at the area you are buying land in terms of future development potential...we bought in an area that was just kicking in and near a lot of groups companies linked to manufacturing big-wigs, so although our house is worthless now, the land (85 tsubo) has actually gone up in value since we bought it as all the employees want to be near work and school.

Just some thoughts, probably not helpful at all, but hope they helps anyhow.

[Nobody]

Pink-Steel,

I feel that any information supplied here by people who built their house or people who researched the topic is helpful.

May I ask what is the type of structure of your house?
I mean is it post-and-beam (在来工法) or 2x4 construction？

Also, does anybody have any opinion/advice on prefabricated steel-structure houses (鉄骨系プレハブ - Sekisui Heim and the like)?

[Greji]

When we (me and "she who must be obeyed and sprayed")

Not on the house scene, but I felt that I must comment on this statement. It is the result of any FG dumb enough to marry a J-female and expect an even break. When I got married, my J-father-in-law told me during the mass drenching of sake at the Hiroen, that "this is one Nichibei Sensou, that Japan is going to win".

When I asked him why he would say that, he said that he had been married to a Japanese woman for 40 years and had as a Japanese, never come close to winning a fufukenka with my wife's mother. He dutifully noted that since I was an FG, I didn't have the slightest possible chance to even get a word in edgewise!

He turned out to be very astute....

[Behan]

Unconditional surrender?