Buying/Building a house/Imported Houses

[Nobody]

Thanks. I appreciate.

[ttjereth]

Good luck with everything Nobody.
As you know, I went with Panahome. If you are thinking of going down that line (and I dont give a shit if you do or dont) PM me if you want the ins and outs from my perspective.
KJ

Post the "ins and outs" and outs here for everybody to read, what's with this pm stuff

[kusai Jijii]

Post the "ins and outs" and outs here for everybody to read, what's with this pm stuff

Its just that I thought, unless you were seriously considering using panahome, it would not be that interesting.

The long and the short of it, I guess, is this: All the "sevice" that you receive from the big companies (like Pana, Sekisui, etc) such as free lunches, bottles of wine, tool sets, etc, aint realy for free. Someone has to pay for them. The consumer. All those costs are, as you might expect, built into the final number. So in this respect, you end up paying for a lot of shit you wish you werent. I mean last week was the first anniversary since we moved in and Panahome sent us a big bunch of flowers. A nice touch, maybe, but who do you think really paid for those flowers?

On the otherhand, I have been very very happy with the workmanship and materials used in the home. It has a steel frame. If there are ANY maintenance issues (except reasonable wear n tear) over the next 30 years, panahome will come and fix things free.

To summerize, I have a very solid, high quality, home that I do not have to worry about but probably paid too much for.

[Catoneinutica]

I
The long and the short of it, I guess, is this: All the "sevice" that you receive from the big companies (like Pana, Sekisui, etc) such as free lunches, bottles of wine, tool sets, etc, aint realy for free. Someone has to pay for them. The consumer. All those costs are, as you might expect, built into the final number. So in this respect, you end up paying for a lot of shit you wish you werent. I mean last week was the first anniversary since we moved in and Panahome sent us a big bunch of flowers. A nice touch, maybe, but who do you think really paid for those flowers?

Exactly! As I posted earlier, the first house we had built in Japan was our place in Karuizawa. We went with a "brand name" Western-style home builder, Fronville Home Chiba, and got all of the BS "services" that Jijii describes, including a visit from the company President.

For our second home, we decided to hire one of Fronville Home's subcontractors directly, and paid one of their architects to moonlight for us. Same quality, much cheaper per-tsubo cost.

[Nobody]

Kusai Jiji
Since I haven't decided anything my idea was to PM you in 3 or 6 months.. if I go that route.
Thank you for sharing the information.

[TennoChinko]

Its just that I thought, unless you were seriously considering using panahome, it would not be that interesting.

The long and the short of it, I guess, is this: All the "sevice" that you receive from the big companies (like Pana, Sekisui, etc) such as free lunches, bottles of wine, tool sets, etc, aint realy for free. Someone has to pay for them. The consumer. All those costs are, as you might expect, built into the final number. So in this respect, you end up paying for a lot of shit you wish you werent. I mean last week was the first anniversary since we moved in and Panahome sent us a big bunch of flowers. A nice touch, maybe, but who do you think really paid for those flowers?

On the otherhand, I have been very very happy with the workmanship and materials used in the home. It has a steel frame. If there are ANY maintenance issues (except reasonable wear n tear) over the[U] next 30 years, panahome will come and fix things free[/U].

To summerize, I have a very solid, high quality, home that I do not have to worry about but probably paid too much for.

That's the part that always gets me -- the assumption that (only) 30 years is a reasonable life expectancy for a home.

[kusai Jijii]

That's the part that always gets me -- the assumption that (only) 30 years is a reasonable life expectancy for a home.

For how many years do expect a company to be reasonably able to make an unconditional warranty on a home? Many of the butchers that call themselves "builders" in Australia wont even come back to fix something they built a week ago, let alone 3 decades later.

This is a country with very humid summers, very cold winters, and not the infequent earthquake remember.

Fuck, judging by the track records of half the construction companies in Japan, many of them will not even be in buisness in 30 years!;)

[james]

"guarantee" is a word that companies love to use to entice, placate or reassure customers or potential customers.

a guaranteed piece of crap is still just that - a piece of crap. ultimately any house is a liability. at least in my narrow-minded view - anything that continues to cost you money after you've bought it, rather than earn you money is a liability.

with that said, nothing lasts forever and there should be a reasonable expectation on both sides, written into contract on what is covered and what isn't and for how long. contracts can also be relatively subject to interpretation.

in certain parts of canada - notably ottawa and calgary - whole subdivisions are / were going up in a matter of a few months with everything usually contracted out to the lowest bidder. you'd be hard pressed to find a true 90 degree angle in a lot of these places and once the place is built the contractors tend to disappear rather quickly. it's rather akin to venturing into a large chain electronics store. they're all over you when you're looking to buy but scatter like roaches should you need to make a return.

[Charles]

[quote="kusai Jijii"]For how many years do expect a company to be reasonably able to make an unconditional warranty on a home? Many of the butchers that call themselves "builders" in Australia wont even come back to fix something they built a week ago, let alone 3 decades later.

This is a country with very humid summers, very cold winters, and not the infequent earthquake remember.

Fuck, judging by the track records of half the construction companies in Japan, many of them will not even be in buisness in 30 years!]
Maybe you are looking at the wrong construction companies.

While I have no personal experience in what you're discussing, I'll chip in my 2 yen anyway. Japanese construction techniques seem to have evolved from temple builders. It has long been a tradition to build temples with elaborate nail-less techniques, for easy disassembly. Typically, each major temple building has two sites, one in use, one vacant. Every 30 years or so, they completely disassemble the old temple, inspect all the parts, replace what has rotted away with newly carved parts, and then they reassemble the temple on the other site. The location of the temple alternates between the two sites, as it is reconstructed each time. So if the major architectural landmarks at temples that have been around for centuries actually only last 30 years, it's easy to see why everyone thinks that's a typical lifetime for a building.

[kusai Jijii]

While I have no personal experience in what you're discussing, I'll chip in my 2 yen anyway.

That's usually the way with you Chuck, isn't it?

I am aware that the work of J-carpenters often resembeles the way temples are built. But I wasnt building a temple, I was building a house. Temples, as you no doubt would be aware, are not overly famous for their insulation / comfort. Traditional temple carpentry is also VERY EXPENSIVE (I know this because there is a temple being 'reformed' next door to my own house, and have heard from the head priest and specialist carpenter directly about this).

Have a nice day.

[Charles]

I am aware that the work of J-carpenters often resembeles the way temples are built. But I wasnt building a temple, I was building a house. Temples, as you no doubt would be aware, are not overly famous for their insulation / comfort. Traditional temple carpentry is also VERY EXPENSIVE (I know this because there is a temple being 'reformed' next door to my own house, and have heard from the head priest and specialist carpenter directly about this).

Well, Japanese houses aren't overly famous for their insulation / comfort either. And that's my point. If the "best" and most expensive temple construction is only going to last for 30 years, what chance do you have of getting something built that's going to last longer, on the cheap?

[kusai Jijii]

Well, Japanese houses aren't overly famous for their insulation / comfort either. And that's my point. If the "best" and most expensive temple construction is only going to last for 30 years, what chance do you have of getting something built that's going to last longer, on the cheap?

Chuck, I think if you go back and read my earlier posts, you will see that THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT I WAS MAKING REGARDING MY DECISION TO GO WITH A BRAND NAME HOUSE LIKE PANAHOME.

[Charles]

Chuck, I think if you go back and read my earlier posts, you will see that THAT'S THE WHOLE FUCKING POINT I WAS MAKING REGARDING MY DECISION TO GO WITH A BRAND NAME HOUSE LIKE PANAHOME.

Do you always lash out angrily at people who agree with you?

[Greji]

Well, Japanese houses aren't overly famous for their insulation / comfort either. And that's my point. If the "best" and most expensive temple construction is only going to last for 30 years, what chance do you have of getting something built that's going to last longer, on the cheap?

The mean value for most Japanese houses is considered to be ten years for sale price or additional mortgages. After that, your only value is your land. Obviously some will depreciate at a slower rate, but 10 years is the normal time frame you will be quoted, regardless at the shape of the house.

[kusai Jijii]

Do you always lash out angrily at people who agree with you?

Well not always, but always with YOU!:devil2:

[FG Lurker]

If the "best" and most expensive temple construction is only going to last for 30 years

Very, very few temples are done like this now. There is one huge one in Mie that still does it but it is hardly a common thing.

[Catoneinutica]

The mean value for most Japanese houses is considered to be ten years for sale price or additional mortgages. After that, your only value is your land. Obviously some will depreciate at a slower rate, but 10 years is the normal time frame you will be quoted, regardless at the shape of the house.

Ten years as a mean-value point makes sense when you consider that banks consider the value of a house to have depreciated to zero after 20 years.

Regarding Charles' post about temple construction, I've actually had two architects, one of them a Todai grad, use the 30-year build-demolish-rebuild tradition as an excuse for the shiatty quality of Japanese house and building construction in general. Both times, I responded with, but there's also an ancient tradition of castle construction in Japan, and they were meant to last more than thirty years, no? Architects: "But Ise Shrine is rebuilt every thirty years."

[FG Lurker]

Do you always lash out angrily at people who agree with you?

You tend to bring that out in people Chuck. Especially when you say that you have no idea what you are taking about but then try to speak like an authority on the subject anyway.

[Mike Oxlong]

[Behan]

The mean value for most Japanese houses is considered to be ten years for sale price or additional mortgages. After that, your only value is your land. Obviously some will depreciate at a slower rate, but 10 years is the normal time frame you will be quoted, regardless at the shape of the house.

I was surprised when we bought our 'used' house, roughly ten years old, that about 80% of the price was for the land.

We wanted to build a Selco 'Western' style home but the bank turned us down for a loan as they considered me to be 'hijokin' because I was a 'keiyaku-shain'. Selco had told us that the average life expectancy for a home in Japan is 25 years but that in the US it's 55 years. I'm sure this is a very rough and debatable figure but they do tend to tear down older houses here rather than repair or restore them.

The real estate agency we bought our chuko-ie put me down on the loan application as a shain. They told us that if you have been employed with a company for something like 5 years you are much more likely to be approved.

I had never even heard the term 'used house' before I came to the land of Chrysanthemums. When people bought houses back home you usually assumed it had been previously owned unless you were told it was 'new' or they were having it built.

There are relatively expensive houses nearby where the land is only rented. I think you have the option of purchasing the land at some later poit if you so choose. There is probably some logic in there somewhere but I can't see the point in paying all that money for something that will depreciate so much. At least with the land you should get a lot of your money back. as long as you don't sell with land prices very low.

Anyway, this house is huge albatross, or rather tsuru, around my neck. I'd have to think twice about telling my employers to f*ck themselves if I was having a bad day.

Sorry, just some random ramblings.

[amdg]

ttjereth

I do like the lines on the sumitomo ringyo house!...





But made the mistake of showing it to the wife, who now wants one.

[ttjereth]

ttjereth

I do like the lines on the sumitomo ringyo house!...





But made the mistake of showing it to the wife, who now wants one.

Don't ever let her go to one of their model houses then, because they are gorgeous. Wish I had 600,000 per tsubo to build one

[ttjereth]

Another question that for some reason I am having a hard time getting an answer for from any of the builders:

Generally speaking, which is more expensive, a washitsu or a yoshitsu (essentially tatami or wood flooring)?

I am well aware that you could go crazy with either one and have all sorts of ridiculously expensive options and whatnot, but in general, which works out cheaper in most similar plans?

I'm not crazy about washitsu, or tatami in general, and neither my wife nor her parents are particularly of the mind that we MUST have a washitsu somewhere in the house, so we may go with all yoshitsu (unless they are more expensive, than the parent's in law can have washitsu rooms ).

Any idea? The few sources I have found in Japanese seem to lean towards washitsu being more expensive if they are in a 2x4 house, because all of the wood molding and such ends up having to be extra on top of the actual 2x4 framing, but no really absolutely concrete opinions either way...

[dimwit]

In our house we are putting in one tatami floored room and they are in general more expensive but if you go for the simplest design and the most basic tatami it is generally not that bad. The biggest problem with tatami rooms is that they are generally unused. In my case, I will use the tatami room as my teaching room and we are not going to need a tokunoma space so instead I will use the area to house bookshelves.

[Charles]

ttjereth

I do like the lines on the sumitomo ringyo house!...





But made the mistake of showing it to the wife, who now wants one.

That house reminds me a little of the famous California "Eichler Homes." I never understood why this style wasn't more popular in Japan. You just throw up a couple of cinder block walls, put a huge cantilevered roof on it, and some wall-to-ceiling windows on the back side facing your back yard. Now you've got the cheapest possible roofed structure with plenty of unrestricted interior space that you can subdivide any way you like.

[ttjereth]

In our house we are putting in one tatami floored room and they are in general more expensive but if you go for the simplest design and the most basic tatami it is generally not that bad. The biggest problem with tatami rooms is that they are generally unused. In my case, I will use the tatami room as my teaching room and we are not going to need a tokunoma space so instead I will use the area to house bookshelves.

We won't have a need for a tatami room either, and I just don't like them, putting furniture on them leaves marks, they discolor, you have to spray for dani every half year, spill a drink and it's a pain in the ass to cleanup/prevent the matt from being damaged, etc. etc. So if they are more expensive or the same price, than we'll just go with all flooring (or more likely carpet).

[amdg]

That house reminds me a little of the famous California "Eichler Homes." I never understood why this style wasn't more popular in Japan. You just throw up a couple of cinder block walls, put a huge cantilevered roof on it, and some wall-to-ceiling windows on the back side facing your back yard. Now you've got the cheapest possible roofed structure with plenty of unrestricted interior space that you can subdivide any way you like.

Yep, not bad. My understanding is that the main problem, at least in the city/suburb area is the size of the land that you'd need to built it on. A single floor family house is just too expensive for that reason. Everyone I know buys small plots and builds upwards.

[ttjereth]

Yep, not bad. My understanding is that the main problem, at least in the city/suburb area is the size of the land that you'd need to built it on. A single floor family house is just too expensive for that reason. Everyone I know buys small plots and builds upwards.

Sumitomo Ringyo doesn't let petty concerns like reality intrude on their designs. In the catalogs I have here they have a plan for a home built on 400 tsubos of land

In all seriousness, they do have more reasonable plans as well (the model house in chiba is only 40 tsubo on the first floor I think), but they also offer some of the biggest plans I've seen from the 30 or some companies whose materials I have crowding me out of space here.

[Charles]

Yep, not bad. My understanding is that the main problem, at least in the city/suburb area is the size of the land that you'd need to built it on. A single floor family house is just too expensive for that reason. Everyone I know buys small plots and builds upwards.

Well, there are solutions, depending on the site. I never heard of Eichler Homes until I had a friend invite me up to his house in Laurel Canyon in LA. It was tucked up against a cliff, he spent about $1mil undercutting the cliff and building 3 stories underneath it. It was amazing, a pool on top, 3 stories underneath with an incredible view, facing the same way as the main house.
And then he got divorced and his wife got the house. Damn. Well, it was built with her money anyway, so I suppose it was what she deserved.

But anyway, my point is, there are many examples of great architecture built on a low budget, from Frank Lloyd Wright's Usonian Homes to the Eichlers. But nobody's building them anymore, they're all McMansions. And that is a damn shame.

[FG Lurker]

[...] he spent about $1mil [...]

But anyway, my point is, there are many examples of great architecture built on a low budget [...]

I think your point needs a bit of work.