Is Japan an intellectual country ?

[Maciamo]

I've often thought that Japan was very good at inventing new products and applications. However, after almsot 2 years of living in Japan, I come to realise that most Japanese aren't very scientific or just intellectual (especially when it comes to philosophy, history or the understanding of the world in general, be it in politics, economics or merely geographic).

IMHO, Japanese people are much more polite and respectful in average than most Westerners, which make them very nice people. But as they have little interest in direct confrontation of ideas and prefer keeking the harmony to arguing, it also affects their philosophical or scientific thinking (spontaneous questioning, confronting ideas, distrust what they've learnt, etc.). Let's say that they are great engineers, work hard and know how to do business, but lack theoritical and abstract thinking compared to Westerners.

Japan has "borrowed" most of its scientific knowledge to the West from the Meiji era. They haven't invented the car, the train, the telephone or even the television. Nobody would contest that Japanese cars, TV's and mobile phones are among the world best, if not the best. However, they had to import all these inventions and then only work on how to improve them. They e better in practice than in theory.

I have counted the number of Nobel prizes obtained by each country and made a little summary (in maths, I have taken the Field Medal, as there are no Nobel prize).

In science (in order : physics/chemistry/medecine/maths)

Japan : 3/3/1/1 = 8

France : 11/5/7/10 = 33
UK : 18/22/25/8 = 73
Germany : 18/27/18/0 = 63
Scandinavia (Sweden, Denmark, Norway, Iceland) : 7/6/7/1 = 21

TOTAL EUROPE (all countries, except ex-USSR, Romania, Bulgaria, ex-Yougoslavia) : 70/71/78/20 = 239

USA : 69/50/86/20 = 225


Literature et Economics

Japan : 2/0

France : 13/1
UK : 7/6
Germany : 7/1
Scandinavia : 13/2

TOTAL EUROPE : 61/13

USA : 11/36

All Nobel prizes ( except "peace") + Field Medal

Japan = 10

France = 47
UK = 86
Germany = 71
Scandinavia = 36
TOTAL EUROPE = 313

USA = 272

The European countries taken here into account have an approximate population of 400 millions, the US 285m and Japan 125m. That means that the US have the more Nobel prize per inhabitant. Consequently, the US have proportionally 16x more Nobel prize than Japan, while Europe has 10x more than Japan, Scandinavia 25x, and the UK has 19x.

Very interesting statistically.

[GomiGirl]

From your sample size of how many? How have you ensured that your sample size is not skewed or has biases due to location, workplace etc and is respresentative of an accurate cross-section of the community.

I know that it is difficult, but please, oh please, don't try to put everybody in a neat little box and make broad statements about an entire population of close to 130 million people with different educational, socio-economic and cultural backgrounds.

I don't think the number of nobel prizes is a good way to "rank" a country and nor do I think that countries should be "ranked".

For goodness sake - I don't want to be put into a box because of my nationality and I don't think it is fair for you to be doing it to everybody you meet. One of my pet hates is "Oh I thought all of 'them' were like this" just as much as I hate people telling me how well I use chopsticks. Just take people as they come and don't fall into the trap and break the cycle of ignorance - it goes both ways....

[kotatsuneko]

in my limited experience, i find that the ppl i meet/work with in nopporo, or ebetsu/teine/otaru chikko etc - basically tons of places around central hokkaido differ widely in character in just that limited range of places

and when i see my family in law around various places in north hokkaido again, the people there seem very different again..

i`d go, with the late alan booth's views on this kind of thing everytime..

[Andocrates]

From my vantage point (back in the states till december) intellectuals are rarther rare. If they were plentiful I guess we would call then normal and coin a new word for those extra special people who were more normal then the average normal person.

But really folks, that gift is as random and borderless as the ability to play the violin - talent does not respect people groups or countries. Perhaps in America that gift is more likely to be recognized and encouraged.

[jingai]

Intellectuals are rare everywhere. If you want to meet interesting people with knowledge and ideas about the world, attend a Japanese university. I met people there who wanted to talk about race in the US, differences in attitudes towards technology in the US in Japan, and the history of Japanese social movements. I get all sorts of interesting emails from Japanese people regarding my bosozoku page, and believe me they don't hold back with their opinions over the internet.

Just as you wouldn't loudly debate politics with someone you don't know well in America (unless you don't care about pissing them off), you won't get to talk in depth in Japan either until your relationships are more than superficial, and the people you're talking with actually have an interest in whatever you want to talk about. Blaming the "culture" or the country is always the last resort for fuckedgaijin.

[vvx]

For goodness sake - I don't want to be put into a box because of my nationality and I don't think it is fair for you to be doing it to everybody you meet. One of my pet hates is "Oh I thought all of 'them' were like this" just as much as I hate people telling me how well I use chopsticks. Just take people as they come and don't fall into the trap and break the cycle of ignorance - it goes both ways....

I agree, take people as they come.. but I also think you can look at statistics of people. We know from statistics the majority of people in American earning the minimum wage aren't offered healthcare through their employers. That isn't to say you can walk up to the clerk at walmart and accuse him of being uninsured, he might very well have walmart insurance.

[bejiita]

...I come to realise that most Japanese aren't very scientific or just intellectual (especially when it comes to philosophy, history or the understanding of the world in general, be it in politics, economics or merely geographic).

As you've stated, the mores of Japanese society is to promote the group mindset. Creativity is sacrificed so that everyone can experience the same things. However, creative people do exist. Will you meet them? Not likely because those that have stepped outside of society will be on their own offbeaten path. Do you frequent or travel those offbeaten paths or are you part of the homogenous salaryman society?

Japan has "borrowed" most of its scientific knowledge to the West from the Meiji era. They haven't invented the car, the train, the telephone or even the television. Nobody would contest that Japanese cars, TV's and mobile phones are among the world best, if not the best. However, they had to import all these inventions and then only work on how to improve them.

You seem to base creativity on absolute novelty. Why isn't an improvement creative also? If the original creators couldn't think of the improvement, isn't the subsequent improver just as creative or even more so?

I would not base creativity merely on which country has the most nobel peace prizes. Of those prize winners, what is their actual ethnicity or race? As a hypothetical, what if all the prize winners turned out to be Japanese but had immigrated to the other countries and also assuming that Japan had won no prizes? Does this still mean Japan is not a creative country merely because other countries have won more prizes than Japan?

[ramchop]

All Nobel prizes ( except "peace") + Field Medal

Japan = 10

TOTAL EUROPE = 313

USA = 272

The European countries taken here into account have an approximate population of 400 millions, the US 285m and Japan 125m.

Very interesting statistically.

ahh statistics. Here's what Google threw up:

"japanese inventions" 1460 hits
"american inventions" 2780 hits
"european inventions" 606 hits.
:P

[kotatsuneko]

ack! do i see me a.... CHINDOGU?! ^^

well, heh i always thought blaming japans society etc was the first call for f*cked gaijin ^^

from what i have seen here, i think its a recycling culture, in my short stay, i have seen stuff on tv thats a parody of a parody etc, years of material that most young viewers wouldnt recognise is brought out and shifted around with a retro/modern twist, hard to explain here .. whether the original material was just that i dont have the knowledge to say, but i love comedy, and even though my japanese is bloody awfull, nothing makes me laugh as much as japanese comedy... tho jackass is sublime..

[Maciamo]

I think too many people confuse creativity with rational thinking, The former uses the right brain and the later the left hemisphere. What I wanted to say is that Japanese, who are famous for their gadgets and creativity in arts (manga, music, etc.) aren't rationalists. Usually if you are one you are not the other. My impression is that Japanese excel much more on creativity than rational, scientifc or theoretical thinking. The huge number of patents reflects the creativity, but the few Nobelised, the lack of scientific-mindedness. Actually, I don't base my impressions just on facts, but on the hundreds of Japanese people I have had a (more than 1h) conversation with.

[ramchop]

The huge number of patents reflects the creativity, but the few Nobelised, the lack of scientific-mindedness. Actually, I don't base my impressions just on facts, but on the hundreds of Japanese people I have had a (more than 1h) conversation with.

I wouldn't read too much into patents. They can be as much about luck as creativity. Some very creative work will never be patented because there's no commercial value in them.

Likewise I wouldn't read too much into Nobel Prizes. Without question all winners are extremely gifted scientists... but that doesn't make them the best. All selection proces have their bias. Did you count the number of Swedes and think for a moment, "hang on, who decides this again?". But if you insist on looking at Nobel prizes have a look at the last 3 years:

Koichi Tanaka Winner of the 2002 Nobel Prize in Chemistry
Ryoji Noyori Winner of the 2001 Nobel Prize in Chemistry
Hideki Shirakawa Winner of the 2000 Nobel Prize in Chemistry
Masatoshi Koshiba Winner of the 2002 Nobel Prize in Physics

Does this mean they weren't, but now they are?

[GomiGirl]

Actually, I don't base my impressions just on facts, but on the hundreds of Japanese people I have had a (more than 1h) conversation with.

That's fine - but don't tar a whole country with this brush. Take each new person as they come and you may be surprised. If you are looking for disappointment or lack or creativity - you will find it.

Perhaps you can say something like - all the people that I have spoken to have been boring or lack creativity.. rather than extropolating out to a statistical fallacy. Statistics are fine if the group is small and targeted enough. They are dangerous when applied to a large and diverse group. I don't think that Nobel prizes are worthy of statistical significance.

It is as bad as saying that all J-girls are easy because all the ones Jack meets in Gas Panic want to go home with him.

[Maciamo]

Another thing about patents is also the cultural value it has. Americans tend to patents every single thing that could have a commercial value (even if it hasn't in reality). In Europe, people don't really care about patents and the process is also much heavier and costly, which explains why so few people care about them. But more importantly, it depends on the specialisation of the economy ; Americans have a huge number of patents for movies and for computer softwares (I was amazed to see that even non-professionals creating patches for some games put a licence agreement to it). In Japan, if each manga, video game or piece of electronics (camera, tv, cd-recoder, headphone and every single kind of cable that go with them) has a patent, then most patents are for those. It's of course much easier to patent a 50 pages manga or a headphone design than for some 5-year-of-reserch anti-cancer medicines.

That's why I didnt want to compare countries on patents, as it really doesn't mean anything.

I did looked after Nobel data because I first thought that Japanese weren't very scientific-minded. After all, they haven't invented the telephone, television or cd-player, eventough they are leaders in these fields. Let's say they are good "recyclers" and "improvers", which make them good at technology and business. A Japanese company vice-president once told me "It's not necessary for managers to have good ideas ; we can pay people for that". That reflects very well the Japanese approach to intellect. The important is business, ideas can be "borrowed" outside. And indeed, Japan has borrowed a lot to China in its history, then to the West from the Meiji restauration onwards. New concepts rarely come from Japan. If they do, they are related to business, not society (human rights, feminism...), politics (democracy, legal system..) or sciences (gravity, relativity, biochemistry, neurology, psychology + inventions of trains, phones, cars, planes, TV, computers, laser, nuclear power, etc.), where all seem to be almost exclusively Western.

[Maciamo]

Perhaps you can say something like - all the people that I have spoken to have been boring or lack creativity..

Did I ever criticise the Japanese for lacking creativity ? Quite the opposite.
But if it makes you feel better, I'll say that my impression that the Japanese I 've met aren't intellectual (not boring, just not ready to rethink politics and discuss philosophical issues such as cloning) or scientific-minded (questioning the world and distrusting information without proof, for instance), but surely are very nice people.

[ramchop]

[quote="Maciamo"]A Japanese company vice-president once told me "It's not necessary for managers to have good ideas ]

What a load of bollocks!

It isn't necessary for managers to have good ideas. It is important that they recognise the good ideas of their employees though. Some of the best scientists that I've worked with would make lousy managers.

Seems to me you've come up with a hypothesis then discarded scientific method by seeking out only the data that supports your claim. Nothing wrong with that... some of the best debates are started that way.

The areas that Japan has excelled at are commercial. There's not going to be the academic recognition in those fields that you'd get from a pure sciences university department. Japan's universities look to me to be largely tied to industry.... the very same way universities in other parts of the world are heading. This is not necessarily a good thing, but it may explain the lack of academic recognition of their successes (and there are many of them).

You've used the telephone, television, CD player as examples. Were their inventors Nobel prize winners?

[Maciamo]

[ramchop]

[GuyJean]

The only "fact" is that you can't think of any. A Japanese has won the Nobel prize in Chemistry for the last 3 years. A statistical blip?

I think intelligence is overrated anyway. I know some fucking stupid intelligent people.. But I guess I don't know any Nobel prize winners either.

I think, generally, Japanese people are very smart. Notice I didn't say 'intelligent'... Common sense is another issue.. I also think there a too many stupid, 'industrialized' people in the world in general.

One thing I think is lacking in Japan is the ability to discover talent. Wasn't Tanaka 'discovered' by a German engineer, when he was studying in another country. And didn't Koshiba study overseas?

After winning the award, they BOTH mentioned that Japan is letting it's talent slip through it's fingers by neglecting the natural gifts of individuals.

Intelligence is relative, IMO, anyway.

GJ

[Hana_Mizu]

Do ALL you FG just hate each other or what

FLAME ON DUDES

[Taro Toporific]

Do ALL you FG just hate each other or what..

All the FG members I've met or messaged privately with seem just a little less "flaming" than than you imagine. Gee, the last FG Party was love-in.

In terms of "hate", there's the old issue for all minority groups, self-hatred, which far less an issue here on the FG Forum than let's say the Young Dudes in Japan board.

Off topic but somehow connected is . . .

People who bite the hand that feeds them usually lick the boot that kicks them.*

*Erik Hoffer

[Maciamo]

[ramchop]

I thought the title of this thread was "IS Japan an Intellectual Country?" not "WAS Japan an Intellectual Country?".


Political correctness behind the recent awards? Could be. But then I'd say it's more likely that awards from the past were more subject to political bias (eg. the Swede phenomenon... name a famous Swedish discovery) than they are currently.

Major discoveries won't become well known until the ramifications have been felt by the genral public.

A major contributor to many scientific discoveries is collaboration. I'm not a history buff so I don't know how long Japan was in its self-contained isolationist dream world. But I'm sure this would have been a factor.