What does fluent mean to you?

[Western All Stars]

Ok, so sometimes while cruising the web I read about how so-and-so is "fluent" in Japanese. I wonder, what does fluent really mean? I know this American girl who can speak very natural and knows a good amount of vocab, but she can't read more than a couple hundred kanji. Then there's my friend who can carry on an er-umm-err-um coversation, but can read essays and novels without much checking from the dictionary (1-kyu). So who's really fluent? I think neither.


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Ok, I'll give Edward Norton a pass. He said it's been 10 years.

[kamome]

I always think the word fluent is bandied about inaccurately, and people often claim "fluency" when they are really just conversant.

On resumes, I get suspicious when I see people claiming "fluency" in a language. An old mentor of mine used to interview candidates for a job by throwing them a copy of the "roppou" - the Japanese legal code - and asking them for an on-the-spot translation of a passage. Anyone who could translate a random passage of the Japanese code like that could claim true fluency (and possibly could claim to be bilingual, the highest level of Japanese ability). I know I would have flunked such a test, even though I consider myself to have business-level fluency in Japanese (or I was at one point - probably not anymore).

It's better not to oversell yourself on your fluency when on a job interview. If you can speak well and understand a conversation, then you are "conversant". If you have good reading and writing skills but can't carry on a conversation, then you just say that you are a translator. If you can function with all the modes of communication, then you would have some variant of fluency.

[FG Lurker]

Most people don't seem to split fluency and literacy. It's very possible to be fluent but nearly illiterate or literate but unable to speak well.

Both terms usually need to be qualified. Someone who is "conversationally fluent" can probably handle most everything in their daily lives. That's not the same as someone who is able to conduct business meetings (properly!) in Japanese. The same sorts of "caveats" apply to literacy levels too -- being able to read manga is a different skill than being able to write business letters.

To answer the OP's question, just saying "fluent" is meaningless most of the time.

[kamome]

Conversationally fluent is another way of saying conversant.

The caveats are important, as FGL says. If you are able to conduct business meetings, you would have business-level fluency. I like the word literate - you could say business-level literacy, casual literacy or fully literate, depending on your skill level.

I think these sharp distinctions don't normally matter EXCEPT when applying for a job or trying to gain admission to a school. If you misrepresent your abilities, you won't be able to meet people's expectations or (worst case) you could be fired for lying on your resume.

[Mulboyne]

Similar discussion in this thread.

[ttjereth]

Good luck landing a job when saying you are "conversant" or qualifying your level of fluency (blah blah fluent).

I've always found the dictionary definition to be adequate:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/fluent?p
a. Able to express oneself readily and effortlessly

If you can say what you need/want to say and make the other party/parties to a conversation/speech/meeting etc. understand, then you are fluent. Citing lack of knowledge of special vocabulary and such (such as legal) is pointless unless the job being interviewed for requires that specific knowledge from the start. I couldn't talk about say, forestry, in Japanese without having to explain a lot of the concepts because I don't know the specific terminology/phrases, but then I couldn't do much better in English.

[Samurai_Jerk]

How do rank someone who is fluent in language but has such a nasty accent that your average native speaker wouldn't be able to understand them? I interviewed an Indian guy like that once. He had no trouble understanding what I said, and his grammar and vocab were perfect when he spoke English. I was only able to understand him because I'm really good with accents and we were alone in a quiet room with no distractions. I bet that about 70 to 80% native English speakers would have had a very hard time.

[ttjereth]

How do rank someone who is fluent in language but has such a nasty accent that your average native speaker wouldn't be able to understand them? I interviewed an Indian guy like that once. He had no trouble understanding what I said, and his grammar and vocab were perfect when he spoke English. I was only able to understand him because I'm really good with accents and we were alone in a quiet room with no distractions. I bet that about 70 to 80% native English speakers would have had a very hard time.

I'd say that's not fluent as he fails the whole being able to express oneself qualification (you're not really ABLE to express yourself if no one can understand what you're saying are you).

[Mulboyne]

How do rank someone who is fluent in language but has such a nasty accent that your average native speaker wouldn't be able to understand them?

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[dimwit]

I'll take your Glasgow and raise you a West Cork.

[Greji]

I'd say that's not fluent as he fails the whole being able to express oneself qualification (you're not really ABLE to express yourself if no one can understand what you're saying are you).

Display of fluency level is only of interest to some employers with special requirementsand educational institutions. Education has its own world and is jealously guarded. Employment on the other hand, when asked about your ability you should praise yourself to the stars. "I am totally fluent", because regardless of how many degrees, certificates for levels of language tests, etc., your whole ability will be ajudicated by a five to ten minute interview by the personnel department. The rest of your paperwork goes in the wastebasket.

As far as asking whether a person is actually fluent or not, everyone can answer that for themselves about themselves if they are honest with themselves. Most aren't.

[ttjereth]

Display of fluency level is only of interest to some employers with special requirementsand educational institutions. Education has its own world and is jealously guarded. Employment on the other hand, when asked about your ability you should praise yourself to the stars. "I am totally fluent", because regardless of how many degrees, certificates for levels of language tests, etc., your whole ability will be ajudicated by a five to ten minute interview by the personnel department. The rest of your paperwork goes in the wastebasket.

I sort of assumed if you were going to classify your language skill level on an application or resume than you are probably applying for a job where it matters or is a requirement. In such cases, saying I am "conversationally fluent" or similar sounds like you are bullshitting and trying to make your ability sound better than it actually is. You either are, or you aren't in my opinion.

As far as asking whether a person is actually fluent or not, everyone can answer that for themselves about themselves if they are honest with themselves. Most aren't.

True enough, but sometimes it pays (literally! HAH!) to be less than stupidly honest with prospective employers.

[Mulboyne]

True enough, but sometimes it pays (literally! HAH!) to be less than stupidly honest with prospective employers.

A company building some log cabin holiday homes in Japan advertised for a Japanese speaker to oversee the project. A bloke I know didn't speak a word but went along for the job because his girlfriend was in Tokyo. They asked "Can you speak Japanese?" and he said "Yes". They paid for his flight and he turned up for work on the first day. The gaijin team warmly welcomed him and called a meeting with the local contractors, saying "Right, tell these bastards we want this, this and this". He turned to them and said "Sorry, I don't know how to say that". After a few other pointless exchanges, the foreigners stormed out. The next day he was called in and fired. Despite not speaking the language, the bloke actually has a natural gift for getting along with people and somehow managed to let the Japanese guys know that he'd been sacked. They felt sorry for him and took him out boozing. Over many, many drinks, they decided they liked him so much they hired him as their own point man to keep the pushy foreigners off their backs.

[MrSpock]

What I want to know is what does "native" level mean to you

I was looking for engineering jobs at workinjapan.com and I'll be darned if they are any that don't require native level. By the way the next step down from "native" is "fluent" which they define as only requiring level 1.
(By the way ikkyu is much easier than Jack Seward's definition of fluency...wow. Nice to get a reality check though)

I guess this isn't the right section for this, but has anyone applied for a position on that website requiring a native level of fluency?
It kind of annoying that there aren't any that require "fluent" level, because no matter how much we study, we can by definition never reach native level. Wonder why they even put those up actually...

[Kanchou]

You're fluent when Japanese people say you are...

If you can translate Japanese law codes on the fly, that's not fluent, that's effectively native (IMHO).

"Fluency" IMO is less a matter of whether literacy or passing exams, and is more a matter of whether or not you can express yourself the large majority of the time (even if you need to look a word up once in a while).

[ttjereth]

A company building some log cabin holiday homes in Japan advertised for a Japanese speaker to oversee the project. A bloke I know didn't speak a word but went along for the job because his girlfriend was in Tokyo. They asked "Can you speak Japanese?" and he said "Yes". They paid for his flight and he turned up for work on the first day. The gaijin team warmly welcomed him and called a meeting with the local contractors, saying "Right, tell these bastards we want this, this and this". He turned to them and said "Sorry, I don't know how to say that". After a few other pointless exchanges, the foreigners stormed out. The next day he was called in and fired. Despite not speaking the language, the bloke actually has a natural gift for getting along with people and somehow managed to let the Japanese guys know that he'd been sacked. They felt sorry for him and took him out boozing. Over many, many drinks, they decided they liked him so much they hired him as their own point man to keep the pushy foreigners off their backs.

That is more than a little stretching of the truth, but still a hilarious story.

[Mulboyne]

I was looking for engineering jobs at workinjapan.com and I'll be darned if they are any that don't require native level...It kind of annoying that there aren't any that require "fluent" level, because no matter how much we study, we can by definition never reach native level. Wonder why they even put those up actually...

They put that because that's what they want from their ideal candidate. If they interview and discover that no-one has the full set of desired skills, which is likely, they will have to compromise. It's unlikely that they would settle for someone who couldn't handle the technical side of the work so companies usually bend a little on issues like age, salary and language. Consequently, as a candidate in an interview, you should try to emphasize what you can do rather than what you can't do.

That is more than a little stretching of the truth, but still a hilarious story.

It really isn't. There are a lot more of those kind of stories from the bubble. I can't think anyone could pull that off these days but you still hear of the occasional chancer who has bullshitted their way to glory.

[Charles]

You're fluent when Japanese people say you are...

If you can translate Japanese law codes on the fly, that's not fluent, that's effectively native (IMHO).

No, you're fluent when the Japanese people STOP saying you are. That's the "ojouzu desu ne" paradox.

If you can translate Japanese law codes on the fly, that's effectively native level, if you consider Japanese Lawyers as the standard for fluency.

[CrankyBastard]

It takes years to be truly flatulent in Japanese, I mean to be a real 'Heppokomaru'

[ttjereth]

It really isn't. There are a lot more of those kind of stories from the bubble. I can't think anyone could pull that off these days but you still hear of the occasional chancer who has bullshitted their way to glory.

Sorry, meant that him saying he could speak Japanese when really couldn't was a "bit more than stretching the truth" (as in, it was an outright lie, not playing up his moderate ability, but not even possessing any ability at all!), not your story I've seen way too many people bullshit their way into things here not to believe the story.

[ttjereth]

No, you're fluent when the Japanese people STOP saying you are. That's the "ojouzu desu ne" paradox.

If you can translate Japanese law codes on the fly, that's effectively native level, if you consider Japanese Lawyers as the standard for fluency.

They never stop saying it. People who are used to you might eventually stop saying it, but new people always seem to feel the need to say it at least once.

As for the Japanese law codes, there are plenty of native Japanese who can't even read and understand them, let alone translate them on the fly.

I don't think translation ability has anything to do with fluency. You can be fluent or even bilingual in two languages and not be able to translate well.

[omae mona]

I agree. Japanese law, just like legal code in any other language, is full of very specialized and stylized lingo. I don't think being able to read it is a litmus test for native level language skills. I think an intermediate or advanced student could probably spend a little time studying the funny terminology and become comfortable with it.

And on the flip side, I agree with what a few other said: even a native Japanese speaker won't necessarily be able to understand legal documents.

No, if there's one true litmus test for native level fluency, it's the ability to translate hentai manga on the fly.

[Iraira]

I agree. Japanese law, just like legal code in any other language, is full of very specialized and stylized lingo. I don't think being able to read it is a litmus test for native level language skills. I think an intermediate or advanced student could probably spend a little time studying the funny terminology and become comfortable with it.

And on the flip side, I agree with what a few other said: even a native Japanese speaker won't necessarily be able to understand legal documents.

No, if there's one true litmus test for native level fluency, it's the ability to translate hentai manga on the fly.

For my previous life, I ended up memorizing and using a lot of biology words. If I dropped them on J-people who didn't have a solid background in the field, they'd be totally lost, as if I were speaking some dialect of barn owl. A J-person who never studied the law, might not know a habeus corpus from a tort, or a tart, or a fart for that matter, just as I don't know diddly/squat about many legal terms in English, except for "Get down on the ground and lock your fingers behind your head."

[Kanchou]

IMO, being fluent and being able to translate/interpret aren't necessarily the same thing.

Interpretation and translation is more or less a learned skill, whereas you can be truly fluent and not be able to do either all that well.

[GomiGirl]

IMO, being fluent and being able to translate/interpret aren't necessarily the same thing.

Interpretation and translation is more or less a learned skill, whereas you can be truly fluent and not be able to do either all that well.

I totally agree with this. My brother could be considered native level Japanese skill - written and spoken, however, he can't translate or interpret for shit. I think it has something to do with how an individual processes language, either syntax or object based. I have no studies to back this up. It is just my own musings.

[Kanchou]

They never stop saying it. People who are used to you might eventually stop saying it, but new people always seem to feel the need to say it at least once.

I concur.

They WILL say it at least once, whether or not they're being condescending or genuinely impressed... and I was referring to when they're willing to concede that you're "pera pera" not "jouzu." Of course, I admit that they consider you effectively fluent when you're at least reasonable conversant.

Even though I've been interpreting for over a year, I still have times where I'm not sure WTF my boss is talking about... since even I admit I'm better at going E>J than J>E.

Also, being able to translate in your head and being able to spout it all out while doing so are two different things, affected by multiple factors (like your normal speech abilities, experience, and understanding the context).

I should probably actually get around to taking the JPLT... level 2, banzai!

[ttjereth]

I concur.

They WILL say it at least once, whether or not they're being condescending or genuinely impressed... and I was referring to when they're willing to concede that you're "pera pera" not "jouzu." Of course, I admit that they consider you effectively fluent when you're at least reasonable conversant.

Even though I've been interpreting for over a year, I still have times where I'm not sure WTF my boss is talking about... since even I admit I'm better at going E>J than J>E.

Also, being able to translate in your head and being able to spout it all out while doing so are two different things, affected by multiple factors (like your normal speech abilities, experience, and understanding the context).

I should probably actually get around to taking the JPLT... level 2, banzai!

Better at E>J than J>E is fairly rare for a native English speaker. In most cases you are generally translating or interpreting into your native language, and (imo anyway) that generally tends to be simpler for most people as well.

Translation ability is definitely something separate and in addition to fluency, and I'd have to say interpretation is yet another degree above and away from even translation. Interpreters make so much money that it's bordering on the ridiculous, but after doing it for 3 years my desire to continue to do it is non-existant and I really think they deserve the money.

I once read somewhere that interpreting has the second highest burn-out rate of all professions, with accounting or some such being first. I should try to find that article again somewhere.

If you take the JLPT level 2, I'd stop there. It's such a hassle and expense to take the test in Japan (unless you happen to live next to one of the testing centers) and honestly I've never had a problem with writing JLPT Level 1 Proficiency and then proving it via an interview rather than having the stupid little postcard certificate. I know people who had the certificate and have been turned down for jobs at the interview stage however. If you actually have the ability then I don't think the JLPT is terribly important.

[Greji]

I don't think the JLPT is terribly important.

I have posted my opinion on this before, but the JLPT really accomplishes nothing for people outside of educational fields. There maybe a miniscule number of FG companies that might ask for it, but a Japanese company could care less. They will determine all they need to know about language at the initial mensetsu, so it doesn't matter if you are perfect on paper.

Most foreign companies that I know in Japan do essentially the same thing. So I would assume that if there are companies requiring JLPT as a requirement, they would not be Japan based, or they are using it to sort out candidates they don't want.

Obviously, the field of education always uses tests of some kind to sort out their qualifications and applicants. But other than someone competing in that field, I have to keep with my belief that JLPT doesn't really mean anything, unless you are such that you have to have a meter stick for your own studies.

[Greji]

I don't think the JLPT is terribly important.

I have posted my opinion on this before, but the JLPT really accomplishes nothing for people outside of educational fields. There maybe a miniscule number of FG companies that might ask for it, but a Japanese company could care less. They will determine all they need to know about language at the initial mensetsu, so it doesn't matter if you are perfect on paper.

Most foreign companies that I know in Japan do essentially the same thing. So I would assume that if there are companies requiring JLPT as a requirement, they would not be Japan based, or they are using it to sort out candidates they don't want.

Obviously, the field of education always uses tests of some kind to sort out their qualifications and applicants. But other than someone competing in that field, I have to keep with my belief that JLPT doesn't really mean anything, unless you are such that you have to have a meter stick for your own studies.

[ttjereth]

I have posted my opinion on this before, but the JLPT really accomplishes nothing for people outside of educational fields. There maybe a miniscule number of FG companies that might ask for it, but a Japanese company could care less. They will determine all they need to know about language at the initial mensetsu, so it doesn't matter if you are perfect on paper.

Most foreign companies that I know in Japan do essentially the same thing. So I would assume that if there are companies requiring JLPT as a requirement, they would not be Japan based, or they are using it to sort out candidates they don't want.

Obviously, the field of education always uses tests of some kind to sort out their qualifications and applicants. But other than someone competing in that field, I have to keep with my belief that JLPT doesn't really mean anything, unless you are such that you have to have a meter stick for your own studies.

The post so nice you made it twice?

I completely agree with everything you said though. I took 4 and 3 in the states when at University, 2 shortly after coming to Japan and just never bothered with 1 since it didn't seem to be important. Most Japanese don't seem to know what the different levels entail anyway, and I've encountered H&R people for foreign companies who thought 4 was the highest level achievement...