A plus for democracy

[jez]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3012774.stm
"Alastair Campbell has changed his mind and will now give evidence to an inquiry into whether the government exaggerated the threat posed by Saddam Hussein"

Thank f*ck for Short and Cook. Question is now, what will Blair do if it turns out he (and his cronies) did lie?
We can always dream of Bush being put on the spot in this way. Unless he get's his cock sucked by some intern, he's basically safe

[jez]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3012774.stm
"Alastair Campbell has changed his mind and will now give evidence to an inquiry into whether the government exaggerated the threat posed by Saddam Hussein"

Thank f*ck for Short and Cook. Question is now, what will Blair do if it turns out he (and his cronies) did lie?
We can always dream of Bush being put on the spot in this way. Unless he get's his cock sucked by some intern, he's basically safe

No, wrong again. WMD do not actually need to be found to justify the war that AMERICA won. Besides there is already ample evidence in terms of mobile labs that Saddam was hell bent on hiding the dirt.

Well, if so, why were they hell bent on giving a justification?
As far as I've heard, they ain't found shit, an' they've even half-admitted they may never find shit. So either they lied, or they 'exagerated'. I think we all know the war was planned well in advance, anyway. Fine. But what's the point in telling porkie pies?

[GuyJean]

WMD do not actually need to be found to justify the war that AMERICA won.

Then why was it brought up in the first place?: "Because the US was in imminent danger of Saddam's nuclear capabilities, since Iraq was acquiring nuclear fuel cells from Niger"? 100% Bush-it. And proven one year earlier, by the CIA, to be Bullshit.. Now it's just Bush-it.

Interesting: Clinton get's impeached for having his dick sucked, while Bush is a canonized for manipulating and lying to the world..

Besides there is already ample evidence in terms of mobile labs that Saddam was hell bent on hiding the dirt.

You use the word 'ample' loosely. There is 'ample' evidence you've been manipulated, my patriotic friend.. As was I.

GJ

[GuyJean]

I will protect you from the other types. And, if you don't like it.

Don't do me any favors, you ignorant ass-fuck..

I will kick your fucking ass.

Bring it on, bitch.. Where do we meet?

GJ

[American Oyaji]

I would say this box on head was Gai.

But Gai has balls enough to post with a registered name. Unlike this troll eunuch.

[cstaylor]

Interesting: Clinton get's impeached for having his dick sucked

Not exactly. He was impeached for lying before a grand jury about his affair with Monica. You can question the importance of spending tax money on something like that, but he did lie before a grand jury.

I think he could have defused the entire situation by admitting to the affair at the beginning, but at the time he probably chose the most prudent course.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Interesting: Clinton get's impeached for having his dick sucked

Not exactly. He was impeached for lying before a grand jury about his affair with Monica. You can question the importance of spending tax money on something like that, be he did lie before a grand jury.

I think he could have defused the entire situation by admitting to the affair at the beginning, but at the time he probably chose the most prudent course.

This was in reality a complex, left wing scheme to sell 8 million books by a broad who most people would like to throw the book at.

[jez]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3012774.stm
"Alastair Campbell has changed his mind and will now give evidence to an inquiry into whether the government exaggerated the threat posed by Saddam Hussein"

Thank f*ck for Short and Cook. Question is now, what will Blair do if it turns out he (and his cronies) did lie?
We can always dream of Bush being put on the spot in this way. Unless he get's his cock sucked by some intern, he's basically safe :D

No, wrong again. WMD do not actually need to be found to justify the war that AMERICA won. Besides there is already ample evidence in terms of mobile labs that Saddam was hell bent on hiding the dirt.

Well, if so, why were they hell bent on giving a justification?
As far as I've heard, they ain't found shit, an' they've even half-admitted they may never find shit. So either they lied, or they 'exagerated'. I think we all know the war was planned well in advance, anyway. Fine. But what's the point in telling porkie pies?

To get the little nellies like you to shut the fuck up while the REAL world gets the job done.

so the 'real job' does not include North Korea, Zimbabwe, Burma etc.?

[jez]

WMD do not actually need to be found to justify the war that AMERICA won.

Then why was it brought up in the first place?: "Because the US was in clear and present danger of Saddam's nuclear capabilities.".. Slowly proving to be Bushit.

Besides there is already ample evidence in terms of mobile labs that Saddam was hell bent on hiding the dirt.

You use the word 'ample' loosely. There is 'ample' evidence you've been manipulated, my patriotic friend.

GJ

Likewise there is ample evidence you have shit for brains. Saddam had to go. Little Kim will go. Iran will not have nuclear weapons and terrorist organizations will not have the free run of any nation. Welcome to the 21st century. You may not like my form of "tyranny" but I will protect you from the other types. And, if you don't like it, I will kick your fucking ass.

Are you Salad Shooter in disguise? I doubt Kim will go while he has nuclear weapons. Once we can be sure he's defenceless, that's when he'll get his arse kicked.

[jez]

There is 'ample' evidence you've been manipulated, my patriotic friend.. As was I.

GJ

Guy,
How did you 'see the light'?

[ramchop]

so the 'real job' does not include North Korea, Zimbabwe, Burma etc.?

Not yet I hope, if they lose focus then there's a mighty good chance that Iraq and Afghanistan are fucked. (giving some twisted individuals the chance to gleefully say "I told you so")

There's a good opportunity to set Iraq on the right path, but it requires time, patience, and resources. America could so easily fuck it up by leaving too early and not finishing the job. Of course other countries need to get their heads out of their collective arses, get off their moral high horses and realise that despite their objections to the war there is a genuine opportunity to do some good now.

[jez]

There's a good opportunity to set Iraq on the right path, but it requires time, patience, and resources.

This is what the USA has planned to do all along:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3012208.stm
"President George W Bush has put forward proposals for a free trade area linking the region with the US."

Of course other countries need to get their heads out of their collective arses, get off their moral high horses

This sounds like the USA/UK, except, 'moral' is not a term I would use for any state, including those who opposed the war. USA/UK and allies supported the war for their own interests, France/Germany/Russia and others opposed the war for their own interests. The majority of the People, however, including in USA, UK and Japan, opposed the war for real, moral reasons. Pity we don't live in democracy.

[GuyJean]

Interesting: Clinton get's impeached for having his dick sucked

He was impeached for lying before a grand jury about his affair with Monica.

I didn't mean it literally.. So, what does Bush get for lying to the nation at the State of Union about Iraq acquiring nuclear material from Niger?.. That claim was 1 year old bullshit.

This was in reality a complex, left wing scheme to sell 8 million..

Yeah, the left-wingers have to think of more creative ways to make money. They can't just invade a country and take it's oil.

Haven't we been through this before old man? I will bitch slap your silly ass to the moon whenever you are cranked up on coke enough to try me.

Gai, is that you?.. Why you hidin'?.. You're usually more eloquent than this arm-chair, Fox-monkey patriot.

Guy, How did you 'see the light'?

I haven't seen any 'light'. Actually, I'm still waiting for those elusive WMD's to make my final decision on things. That was the ONLY reason I saw for justifying a war; imminent danger. No WMD's = no imminent danger + continued UN inspectors..

Blind acceptance, on either side, irritates me.

I think we need a new blueprint for waging war.. IMO.

GJ

[cstaylor]

I thought the unstated reason for invading Iraq was to remove military bases from Saudi Arabia and contain Iran on both sides (Iraq and Afghanistan)

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Haven't we been through this before old man? I will bitch slap your silly ass to the moon whenever you are cranked up on coke enough to try me.

Gai, is that you?.. Why you hidin'?.. You're usually more eloquent than this arm-chair, Fox-monkey patriot.

Actually, that was me! Peek-a-boo!

I was justa yanker yer cranker. DJEB's return has launched me into "Falling Down" mode.

Lates!

[DJEB]

DJEB's return has launched me into "Falling Down" mode.

Glad to be of service.

[ramchop]

This sounds like the USA/UK, except, 'moral' is not a term I would use for any state, including those who opposed the war.

I agree with that.. but to be honest I'm past caring about the "why?". If America get a few $billion out of Iraq, but Iraq becomes a happy place in the progress how can you be outraged? Or would you prefer Saddam?

What I do want to see happen is for Iraq to improve. You may disagree about the means. However, Iraq does have a better opportunity to change for the better now than it had 6 months ago. I just hope the world doesn't fuck it up.

[jez]

I agree with that.. but to be honest I'm past caring about the "why?". If America get a few $billion out of Iraq, but Iraq becomes a happy place in the progress how can you be outraged? Or would you prefer Saddam?

What I do want to see happen is for Iraq to improve. You may disagree about the means. However, Iraq does have a better opportunity to change for the better now than it had 6 months ago. I just hope the world doesn't fuck it up.

So the choice is Saddam or Bush/Blair? Pretty poor choice if you ask me. The idea that USA/UK will make Iraq a happy place is...sorry, I'm lost for words

[ramchop]

So the choice is Saddam or Bush/Blair?

No, the choice WAS Saddam or Bush/Blair, nobody else was going to do anything that would have made a difference in Iraq. What would you have done, wait for Saddam to die of natural causes?, because no amount of peace rallies would have forced him to step down. Yes there was a shitload of dishonesty, but I always thought Bush was a dickhead anyway.

The choice now is to slowly let the Iraq situation fall to pieces, or for the world to get involved and try to stop the rot. If Iraq gets fucked up you'll no doubt be blaming it on US/UK for the war. I'll be blaming it on US/UK/world for how it was managed after the war (and not getting involved does not absolve a country from blame). Iraq was fucked up before, I'm just hoping for a long term improvement.

...sorry, I'm lost for words

Success!!!

[jez]

Iraq is better without Saddam. Zimbabwe would be better without Mugabe. NK would be better would be better without Kim Jong Il. Many countries would be better without their leaders, including USA/UK. Problem is, who says the US/UK have the right to intervene in other people's affairs? Iraq was obviously not a threat to us, which is why it was attacked(as opposed to NK). Don't tell me you really believe the well-being of Iraqis was behind this war. As we have seen, the USA is more interested in creating another pro-US government in the middle east, than anything else.

Even if the USA is not interested directly in the oil, because it can rely on safer sources such as Nigeria or Alaska, control of oil in Iraq is pretty useful to the USA.

Once Iraqi oil pumps are back to speed, and the country's untapped fields are probed, it could become an even greater force within OPEC and the world oil markets. As Vice President Dick Cheney once observed in warning of Saddam Hussein's oil aspirations, whoever sits atop the Middle Eastern oil market has a ``stranglehold'' on the global economy.

"I expect the United States to continue to play a strong role in the Iraqi oil market five years from now," said Michael Klare, a political science professor at Hampshire College. "It may not be directly, but the U.S. will have substantial power over who taps Iraq's oil market."

"I don't think we went there for the oil, and I don't think we went there for the things the White House said we went there for either," said Vahan Zanoyan, chairman of PFC Energy, a business consultancy. "The main reason was to consolidate our position as a superpower."

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0608-04.htm

[ramchop]

Don't tell me you really believe the well-being of Iraqis was behind this war.

You're obviously not reading what I'm writing.

I agree with that.. but to be honest I'm past caring about the "why?".

You're still there in your theoretical world of wonders, secretly hoping that the Iraq will fall apart so you can skip along the street singing "I was right!, I was right!"

[hanabi]

Don't tell me you really believe the well-being of Iraqis was behind this war.

You're obviously not reading what I'm writing.

May I? Okay, so what I believe you're saying is that, despite the "reason" being complete and utter bullshit, and despite the deaths that happened on all sides, and despite the facts that a diplomatic solution was still possible and that U.S.-backed U.N. sanctions had a lot to do with the suffering of the Iraqi people in the first place, there was still some good that came out of this (i.e. the end of Saddam's tyranny).

I guess I can agree with that. Sure.

But that doesn't stop me from worrying that that very war is creating more "terrorists," since it's managed to strengthen anti-America sentiment both in the U.S. and other countries. It doesn't stop me from being concerned over the fact that Bush is devoting more care into rebuilding Iraq than he is into rebuilding New York (not to mention the rest of the country). And it doesn't stop me from dreading another four years of this crap since it's become damn near impossible to question Bush's actions anymore without being called a "terrorist" or "Saddam lover."

The thought of there being another rogue state doesn't scare me. But a rogue state with all the power and military force of the United States? Fucking frightening.

[jez]

You're still there in your theoretical world of wonders, secretly hoping that the Iraq will fall apart so you can skip along the street singing "I was right!, I was right!"

I already have reason to believe the war was wrong and unjustified. Those reasons I have listed above and before, as have others.
It's not simply a matter of Iraq falling apart, which it may well do, but a matter of it becoming just another pawn in the power game led by the US of A. We are already seeing that happen. You just have to open your eyes, and look at what's coming out of the news, and not just traditional government-friendly media.

[jez]

'national defense' and 'terrorism defense' there would have been no questions. Who can argue against that?

Everyone should be against that, because, as hanabi has said, US terror simply exacerbates the risk of anti-western terror. Again, in the words of Noam Chomsky,
"We certainly want to reduce the level of terror, certainly not escalate it, There is one easy way to do that and therefore it is never discussed. Namely stop participating in it. That would automatically reduce the level of terror enormously. But that you can't discuss."

[ramchop]

But that doesn't stop me from worrying that that very war is creating more "terrorists," since it's managed to strengthen anti-America sentiment both in the U.S. and other countries.

That is a scarey thought. Many of the hawks criticised Bush sr for stopping at the border. Moneywise, I think it was probably a wise decision. However much you would prefer the money to be spent on NYC, America now has a responsibility to stay in Iraq and make sure it's a much better place when they leave. If they achieve this then I'd like to think there'd be fewer Iraqis willing to be Bin Laden's footsoldiers. If they don't, I have no doubt there'll be more of the bastards.

The rest of the world is pissed off with America, but countries who were extremely opposed to the war are now sending peacekeepers to the area, so there must be some pretty good diplomatic work going on.

I hope the smirking Chimp is not re-elected, but I hope just as much that his replacement doesn't say "It's not my mess", and pull out. If Iraq turns into a Somalia you can guarantee there'll be more terrorists. Bush strikes me as the sort who could get bored of Iraq really quickly.

[jez]

"Only the dead have seen the end of war." - Plato

So far...