School Girl Makes Japan Uneasy(not what you think)

[nottu]

[BO-SENSEI]

then for the love of god tell me what you think

[wuchan]

It is not about what I and the other people here think, it's what we see every day. You have just moved to possibly the most xenophobic country ever, Nkorea is working on taking its place. Western products = good. Western ideas = OMG THE DEVIL WALKS WITH US.

[AssKissinger]

You have just moved to possibly the most xenophobic country ever,

The local girls don't suck your cock in the most xenophobic countries.

[wuchan]

The local girls don't suck your cock in the most xenophobic countries.

good point.......... but aside from the women wanting to find out if all the rumors about gaijin dick is true.....

Ran into a messed up situation a few months ago. In a bar one of the guys at our table gets mad and punches his date in the face. I grab him and pull him outside ans start with the WTF Q's. In the end I somehow became the bad guy and the rest of the party, all japanese, asked me to leave while saying "you can't force your western culture on the japanese". Fuckhead and his girl stayed and from what I hear are still together today.

[BO-SENSEI]

good point.......... but aside from the women wanting to find out if all the rumors about gaijin dick is true.....

Ran into a messed up situation a few months ago. In a bar one of the guys at our table gets mad and punches his date in the face. I grab him and pull him outside ans start with the WTF Q's. In the end I somehow became the bad guy and the rest of the party, all japanese, asked me to leave while saying "you can't force your western culture on the japanese". Fuckhead and his girl stayed and from what I hear are still together today.

Wow, that is beyond fucked up, and you did the right thing regardless of the outcome. If standing up for women is not a part of Japanese culture it should be clear that there are some things that Japan still needs to adopt in the 21st century.

[GomiGirl]

After reviewing what i previously posted about why Japanese people seem to be unwilling to allow an increase in the immigration of foreigners it does not make any sense.

With 2 percent of Japan being foreign-born versus the 10 percent of America, would Japan worry about its own culture if Japan had the same amount of immigrants as America did? I'd doubt it. Japanese culture evolves much like every other cultures. When I asked my students to draw a poster on something interesting about Japan, I got some posters on Kyoto, sushi, Mt. Fuji, kimonos. But by far i got the most posters on things like anime and manga. No matter how many foreigners you bring into Japan, these things are not going to go away. Sure kimonos are no longer worn, but that was killed by the Meiji period and are still worn, beautifully I might add, on coming of age day and important ceremonies. Millions of Americas eat sushi, watch anime and read manga. No matter what, Mt. Fuji is not going away. And Kyoto, although parts of it look like Las Vegas, is still a booming tourist destination with numerous historic temples, shrines, and gates.

So why do some Japanese people fear the increase in foreigners and so nationalistic politicians demand to keep their race pure? Because they are backwards, they live in their own little world that is 60 years ago. They live in a world where Japan was not the aggressor in World War II and Nanking never happened, they live in a world where everything is controlled by the bureaucracy and corruption and bribes are as much a part of politics as domestic policy. Japan's economy might be falling down around them but what can they do? The so-called "obvious solution" to them is an unreasonable one.

OMG there is just much wrong with this post it is hard to know where to start.

I think the biggest problem that I had was your attempt to view your assumptions (which are mostly incorrect I might add) via your own value system. This is not possible and kinda rude.

Japan is not America so you can't compare stats this way and make an assumption about how people feel about it and then criticise as you feel differently. Do a role reversal and you would be kinda pissed that people were making these sorts of value judgements on your lifestyle and opinions.

BTW I see some people who do wear kimono every day but that is besides the point.

Mate - quit while you are behind and rather than try to enforce your opinions, sit back and listen to what is the actual situation and not your misconceived ideas.

[BO-SENSEI]

OMG there is just much wrong with this post it is hard to know where to start.

I think the biggest problem that I had was your attempt to view your assumptions (which are mostly incorrect I might add) via your own value system. This is not possible and kinda rude.

Japan is not America so you can't compare stats this way and make an assumption about how people feel about it and then criticise as you feel differently. Do a role reversal and you would be kinda pissed that people were making these sorts of value judgements on your lifestyle and opinions.

BTW I see some people who do wear kimono every day but that is besides the point.

Mate - quit while you are behind and rather than try to enforce your opinions, sit back and listen to what is the actual situation and not your misconceived ideas.

please tell me where i am wrong. I can't see it. Break it down for me will you.

Yeah i know some people still wear kimonos every day but those are very few and far between. the biggest problem i have with your response is you state that i am trying for force my opinon on others, i didn't even state an opinion, I stated facts.

[nottu]

[Greji]

I really hope this thread continues - very entertaining - illuminating product of US culture and education. Cleveland follows me everywhere.

Why would Cleveland do that? It's just north of San Diego right?

[BO-SENSEI]

Oh for the love of God.

This thread started by me posting an article for the argument that if Japan wanted to rise out of this recession, the author, not me, thinks it would be a good idea to allow more educated foreigners into the country. Then I compared that article with an Op-ed from the New York Times that stated the same idea.

This thread then came to the point that about Japan and Western culture, which i am not even going to touch because evidently my opinion does not even matter or is wrong. either is fine with me, i just don't give a fuck. Then it came to the point where it came to the point no matter what i said it was wrong. Now I seem to be the only one stating opinions and as a result the only one taking heat. So lets go back the main point of the thread.

Do you or do you not agree that the increase of educated foreigners to Japan would help bring Japan out of its economic turmoil.

Now criticize me, I dare you.

And I am not from Cleveland.

[nottu]

[nottu]

[BO-SENSEI]

What on earth made you jump to the conclusion that i am some undereducated guy, I went to a decent university. I am not about to compare degrees with you but you are right. You refer to Perry's acts from the Japanese point of view as an act of war. And yes the United States unfairly used force to coerce the Tokugawa government in opening thier ports to Western trade. The term is called "gunboat dipolmacy" and even the Japanese used it against Korea in 1876. What Perry did was made the Japanese people realize that if Japan was going to avoid becoming like China, forced to open itself to the European powers, modernization was mandatory and the Tokugawa system had to be removed. Am I right or did I leave something out?

[GomiGirl]

Do you or do you not agree that the increase of educated foreigners to Japan would help bring Japan out of its economic turmoil.

My point was that it was not for me or you or anybody else to decide what was best for Japan.

But to be honest, it seems that US has more economic turmoil than Japan has at present so who should be telling whom how to act?

I suggested that there is a huge untapped resource within Japan - namely the women who would prefer to work outside the home but have little incentive or opportunity.

But other people just keep harping on about their own desires to see Japan accept another persons opinion on how they should act. I guess the author is projecting their own desires giving little thought to reality or ramifications.

[wuchan]

What on earth made you jump to the conclusion that i am some undereducated guy, I went a decent university. I am not about to compare degrees with you.......

And this is why many US companies prefer people from community colleges. The guy who paid his own way through CC while working will, yes there are studies to prove this, produce more than the kid straight out of harvard. A BA from Harvard, Yale, etc... = a nice piece of paper from an expensive school.

Back home we always said a four degree is nothing more than a piece of paper. Experience is everything.

but TIJ and you are unemployable without that piece of paper, or ten years of experience.

[BO-SENSEI]

And this is why many US companies prefer people from community colleges. The guy who paid his own way through CC while working will, yes there are studies to prove this, produce more than the kid straight out of harvard. A BA from Harvard, Yale, etc... = a nice piece of paper from an expensive school.

Back home we always said a four degree is nothing more than a piece of paper. Experience is everything.

but TIJ and you are unemployable without that piece of paper, or ten years of experience.

Yeah and I wonder what my sister is going to do with her degree in Psychology. when I graduated I intended to teach high school history, so i got a degree in history, with minors in Education and Asian Studies. Now your right, for the most part, companies love to have workers that went to community college, and that the skills i learned in college are not really that applicable to a high percentage of the jobs out there. But teaching is a job that loves people that went to those types of universities.

[AssKissinger]

good point.......... but aside from the women wanting to find out if all the rumors about gaijin dick is true.....

Ran into a messed up situation a few months ago. In a bar one of the guys at our table gets mad and punches his date in the face. I grab him and pull him outside ans start with the WTF Q's. In the end I somehow became the bad guy and the rest of the party, all japanese, asked me to leave while saying "you can't force your western culture on the japanese". Fuckhead and his girl stayed and from what I hear are still together today.

So mind your own fucking business.

[Mike Oxlong]

...You refer to Perry's acts from the Japanese point of view as an act of war. And yes the United States unfairly used force to coerce the Tokugawa government in opening thier ports to Western trade. The term is called "gunboat dipolmacy" and even the Japanese used it against Korea in 1876. What Perry did was made the Japanese people realize that if Japan was going to avoid becoming like China, forced to open itself to the European powers, modernization was mandatory and the Tokugawa system had to be removed. Am I right or did I leave something out?

IIRC, the Edo bakufu was weak and likely to fall apart all on its own, but the arrival of the black ships helped to speed that downfall by a decade or so. Perry's arrival may have been the straw that broke the camel's back, but the writing was on the wall for the Shogunate.

[BO-SENSEI]

Interesting idea about the Tokugawa falling on its own, I never really focused on pre-Perry Japanese history, I also don't do "what if" situations. The Americans opened Japan because it was going to happend eventually, be it the British, French, Spanish, Germans, or Russians. It was the presense of foreign military strength and the realization of their low postion in the international order that angered them and called for the Meiji Restoration.

So notto are you going to tell me your opinion now? I think I earned it.

Also, Interesting article from Time Magazine on Ozawa that has stong connections to this thread. http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1884678,00.html?xid=rss-world

[Takechanpoo]

In recession large influx foreign labors absolutely accelerates deflation of J-economiy and makes J-economy shrink more. And J-economy never can return to past economic glory as you know. So I wholeheartedly oppose to the increase of gaijins. Sorry

[Mike Oxlong]

Have a quick peek...

[url]http://www.thecorner.org/hist/essays/japan/toku-fall1868.htm][/url]

Not quite the sound byte you were looking for, but...

[Number11]

I honestly don't find Japan any more xenophobic than many other cultures. Most all people will tip toward defending their culture against advice by someone from another culture pontificating what's wrong, what's strange, what's different, what they should do.

You can already see it here in rationalizing gunboat diplomacy with the inevitability argument. The implication being that it was for their own good? That is certainly a crock of western historical fiction.

The argument that foreigners can lead Japan out of whatever they think Japan should be lead out of is another attitude that's extraordinarily arrogant.

I'm tired of these type of articles by ax-to-grind amateurs who know just enough about Japan to sound as if they know what they're talking about to people who know nothing about Japan.

Japan found it's way out of the so-called lost decade on its own. Will the US find its way out of the coming depression by bringing clever foreigners in to save America?

In spite of lunatic politicians that all countries are forced to work around, it was businesses run by level-headed Japanese people that saved Japan from even greater damage during the so-called lost decade. The Bank of Japan, China, the Fed... none of these had as much effect as the improved efficiencies, investments and total and complete overhaul of Japanese business culture by Japanese businesses run by Japanese.

Businesses were the cure. Businesses are always the cure, not government. The Japanese business (and total) culture had to be completely changed, but it required years to bring it about. Prior to the 1990s, employees received a lump-sum payment upon their retirement. The average might have been equivalent to US$350,000 or more. Companies set up new retirement systems for new, young employees, but it was not an easy sell because there was no history of annuity-type pensions. Young people couldn't ask their parents about which plan to choose - no one had any experience with these. There was resentment from mid-career and soon-to-retire workers. Some would get the full amount, others were asked to change to a new system and still others were told they would have to wait for years after they retired until they received their retirement. It took a decade for attrition to change the system.

Japanese companies were too busy reducing costs, ameliorating foreign exchange swings and bringing manufacturing closer to markets to be lost during this "lost decade." They invested heavily in building new factories in the US, Canada, England, Ireland, Wales, China, Taiwan, Thailand, Malaysia, Indonesia, Mexico, Belgium, Czech, etc., and logistics and supply systems to support them.

Most of these investments by most of the companies were self-financed and underline my point - businesspeople will have to do again. They will get up every day to do the hard work, the productive work.

The decade resulted in having a third of workforce working as contract or temporary workers. Those are Japanese people and not just foreigners. That hollowing out will continue and there will be no demand for "educated foreigners" or more middle class white collar workers. So the question of more foreigners is moot.

I think Gomi Girl has it right and politicians will eventually recognize that encouraging greater female contribution is the best and easiest route. Truth be told, females are already keeping things running in many organizations within companies now, in spite of the old farts.

[wuchan]

The decade resulted in having a third of workforce working as contract or temporary workers. Those are Japanese people and not just foreigners. That hollowing out will continue and there will be no demand for "educated foreigners" or more middle class white collar workers. So the question of more foreigners is moot.

many things wrong with your post but I'd like to focus on this. If you go back a few pages you will see my comment on people having a BA in BS. The fact is that not only japan but most international companies could give a shit less about what degree you have or what school you went to. Experience is much, much more valuable which is why japan had the ten year experience clause in visa law. I came in with the ten years+ experience, no one ever bothered to ask if I even went to school.

[Number11]

It comes from this quote by bo-sensei: "Do you or do you not agree that the increase of educated foreigners to Japan would help bring Japan out of its economic turmoil."

I presumed that context meant executive or professional- level positions and not skilled or unskilled labor.

You sound like someone with an academic inferiority complex. I don't care what kind of degree you have or even if you have one. I respect all skilled people, but your comment about employers preferring people having a community college diploma over those with a bachelors degree is ridiculous.

[nottu]

[wuchan]

It comes from this quote by bo-sensei: "Do you or do you not agree that the increase of educated foreigners to Japan would help bring Japan out of its economic turmoil."

I presumed that context meant executive or professional- level positions and not skilled or unskilled labor.

You sound like someone with an academic inferiority complex. I don't care what kind of degree you have or even if you have one. I respect all skilled people, but your comment about employers preferring people having a community college diploma over those with a bachelors degree is ridiculous.

No complex here, I just have seen the effects of "educated" kids in a real american workplace. Most of the time they just end up as jokes. I began working in my field at 16. Experience IS everything. Harvard = a fancy piece of paper with a HUGE attitude attached. Trust me, I have seen it more than a couple of times. Those of you coming to japan for your first job might want to do some research. Many of the top companies here employ "gaijin" at high levels.

Thank for writing this and saving me the time.

When I meet a foreigner and they start using words like xenophobic, etc. its time to walk.

I was referring to the 400 years of closed ports. In no way do I condone what the US did but that 400 years of isolationist practices does carry over to today.

[nottu]

[wuchan]

Since you brought this up - what is your field? And tell me about the Harvard people you knew - what did they do?
I'm interested.

logistics.
Harvard people, for about a year, were hired by IE. 90% quit after two years mostly due to the "hate" they received from the operations division. Ops = guys who put 10 - 30 years in, IE = uni noobs with "new, revolutionary" ideas that usually don't work. I am somewhere in the middle laughing at the kids who think that harvard grads rule the world.

[xenomorph42]

many things wrong with your post but I'd like to focus on this. If you go back a few pages you will see my comment on people having a BA in BS. The fact is that not only japan but most international companies could give a shit less about what degree you have or what school you went to. Experience is much, much more valuable which is why japan had the ten year experience clause in visa law. I came in with the ten years+ experience, no one ever bothered to ask if I even went to school.

This is so on the mark. Most Japanese employers care more about compatibility, and if they can mold you into the perfect employee rather than what kind of ink is written on parchment paper. Most of the time, the paperwork is more of a cosmetic formality and nothing more.