Car ETC

[FG Lurker]

Now if you want great torque. On the street, not on the paper. The Honda fit always surprised me even with an 1,3l engine.

Here's a question for you then... Why the hell didn't you buy a Fit instead of the Note?

Probably going to buy my wife a Fit for a runabout later this year or sometime next year.

[Coligny]

Here's a question for you then... Why the hell didn't you buy a Fit instead of the Note?

Probably going to buy my wife a Fit for a runabout later this year or sometime next year.

Because back then the Fit was due to a facelift in less than 12 month, the old Fit was too spartan inside compare to the Note for Around the same price (The Fit was on the same luxury level as a Russian Lada or Zil). And also the Note being on the same plateform as the Renault Long Modus was a little cuter in my eyes.

Nowadays, with the upgraded Fit. It's the Note that appear like a escaped from the Gulag. Fit driving position is quite good and everything inside is nice and handy. But for me, the most confortable car interior is the new Insight. The control panel is disturbing but you can ignore the lower half, important data being only on the upper portion, all the important switches are close to the steering and near the line of sight. The ride might be a little hard for some. But for the price it's a steal. Big drawback for me is the Hybrid drive, it's a ridiculous idea from the start. When the prius arrived 10 years ago it was Ok. But now with LiPo batteries not having a mass produced electric only car is really a shame.

[omae mona]

Yeah, enjoy... An ETC is basically a transponder. I don't know if he broadcast an ID all the time or only when called by a gate. I don't know how they designed the system. But if they made it so that a gate can't distinguish between a car without ETC or a car without the card in the ETC (or other soft error) then Tanaka Highway IT should be fired. For me, in doubt I assume that it's an on-power-always-active transponder. For cars you call this more a lowjack. The cost ? I bought me a double polarity lit toggle switch at my electronic shop for 600Y, a cute drawing to my car salesman who is a former mechanic explaining the desired layout and that was it. Switch off, no ETC, toggle the switch, ETC asking for the card. You need a double polarity switch because ETC have 2 + leads (key in position for accessory and ON) or you can cut just the ground wire... but it's not exactly a good design

I'm glad to hear you didn't spend much money on the switch.

I think the thing you're missing is that the card's not there for fun - it's the part that provides all the data that gets transmitted by the transponder. If you pop your ETC card out of your device, and you insert your friend's card, he will get billed for all your driving, not you. Like I said, I don't know very much about the technology, but my guess is that the device does not even have any data to transmit when there's no card in it.

So a car without the card in the ETC is not a "soft error" - it's the same as not having an ETC at all. There is no billing data. Of course the gate can distinguish between an ETC with a card and without a card - it distinguishes so well that it won't open for the one without a card! But I don't think the gate can distinguish between an ETC without a card and a car with no ETC device at all. They are both invisible to the gate (until you crash through it).

[Mike Oxlong]

So what, the idea is to use the ETC kill switch concurrently with the license plate light kill switch to tailgate another ETC user through the gates, all while driving under cover of darkness?

[Coligny]

I'm glad to hear you didn't spend much money on the switch.

I think the thing you're missing is that the card's not there for fun - it's the part that provides all the data that gets transmitted by the transponder. If you pop your ETC card out of your device, and you insert your friend's card, he will get billed for all your driving, not you. Like I said, I don't know very much about the technology, but my guess is that the device does not even have any data to transmit when there's no card in it.

So a car without the card in the ETC is not a "soft error" - it's the same as not having an ETC at all. There is no billing data. Of course the gate can distinguish between an ETC with a card and without a card - it distinguishes so well that it won't open for the one without a card! But I don't think the gate can distinguish between an ETC without a card and a car with no ETC device at all. They are both invisible to the gate (until you crash through it).

Good for you if it's your reading of the situation. But if the device is useless without card, why do you need to have it registered when you buy it ?
Honestly, I don't know, I don't care. And when I smell something fishy I just follow the safest protocol allowing to maintain ease of use and convenience. ETC and RFID are on the same boat for me. Except ETC can be sometime usefull, while for rfid, when I suspect the presence of one, it's straight to the microwave and then no longer a worry.

->I don't want to be lowjacked on my dimes.
->I don't know if the ETC is a lowjack BUT it have a STRONG potential to be so.
-> And finally there is no reason to turn on a device if you don't use it all the time. Especially on a car, where any electric power draw result in more fuel use.
-> On/Off switch between power and ETC.

BTW, yes I also quite often switch off my cellphone. Especially when I drive... And I don't exactly trust the no emission mode...

[Greji]

Good for you if it's your reading of the situation. But if the device is useless without card, why do you need to have it registered when you buy it ?

I don't know if you meant this sarcastically or not, but the registration ties the particular card to the ETC transponder, if that is the correct term. i.e. You are not supposed to be able to use a different ETC card with your transponder and AFAIK this is final. I had my car in the shop and they gave me a daisha while mine was being fixed. The shop guy said I could use the ETC, but the car's transponder could not read my card, so essentially I had to stop at each toll gate, hand over the ETC card to the gate attendant and he used it the same as you use a credit card and it was entered on my ETC card account.

I haven't heard of anyone having a device that would read any other ETC card, but the one registered to it. There may be such an animal, but if there is, it is not very well publicized.

[omae mona]

[FG Lurker]

I also don't think the ETC cards and readers are tied. When I had a "job" to go to I used to take my own car for company business sometimes and just used their ETC cards. Never had a problem with it.

[Greji]

[omae mona]

[Coligny]

So the device registration is for assigning the right vehicle type & toll amount. The card registration is for billing. This is why cards can be used interchangeably in different ETC devices.

(Greji, perhaps your card was issued before they figured this method out, so they have the vehicle type encoded in your card and don't let you swap it, so you can't drive a semi-trailer for cheap "futsuusha" tolls)

Now the real scam here would be to register your ETC device with a "kei" type light car, and then reinstall it in a big truck, to get cheap tolls. I think you can only get busted if they notice the license plate number mismatch in photos.

Unlike passive systems (like the "EZ-Pass" tokens on the U.S. east coast), ETC is active and can only transmit data when the device explicitly sends a signal. All the ETC devices I've seen, at a minimum, emit a beep when they transmit or receive data. I suppose all the manufacturers could be in cahoots with the highway authority and secretly send your device registration info to track your movements, even when you're not at a toll plaza, and even when you don't have a card in the unit. And suppress the warning beep. But I kind of doubt this is happening. I think most of these units are too junky to do something clever and sneaky like that.

So now, the previously, harmless and dumb ETC device 'until you put the card' is supposed to know your car ID number and the vehicle category anyway. Since It can't be stored in the ETC card (which I thought was a regular credit card, hopefully I never tried to pay with it anywhere). because said card can be used by the driver in any other car.

For me the journalist report about a guy following close to avoid paying sound like a fairy tale. With much of the details obfuscated either to induce people in error or because of excessive retionalisation of something misunderstood by the writer.

But this thread goes to show how little is understood by all of us about the behaviour of the device. Basically everyone is told "take this, it is good to pay fast on the highway. And take it more to pay less" while absolutely nothing is clearly explained about the internal behaviour of the whole system which I don't think is proprietary since any company can start making/selling them. Basically we have absolutely no guarantee of privacy and against abuse of the system.

[omae mona]

But this thread goes to show how little is understood by all of us about the behaviour of the device.

That's because remarkably few of us are RF engineers who can read technical specifications in Japanese, or want to sign the contracts with NEXCO and then purchase documentation.

Basically everyone is told "take this, it is good to pay fast on the highway. And take it more to pay less" while absolutely nothing is clearly explained about the internal behaviour of the whole system which I don't think is proprietary since any company can start making/selling them. Basically we have absolutely no guarantee of privacy and against abuse of the system.

You appear to be right that the specifications are not proprietary, as I noted above.

Wow, what kind of guarantee do you want, tearing open each individual device and reverse engineering it? The specifications are public. Your conspiracy theory requires one to believe that every ETC device manufacturer is in cahoots with the government to transmit information that's not supposed to be transmitted, and they've all kept their mouths shut about it so the general public doesn't find out. And that Japanese private citizens, which includes lots of people who are engineers and do read Japanese, and who are notoriously sensitive about private data leakage (remember the Juki Net uproar), have not bothered to check these specifications.

I think it's a stretch! If it makes you feel better to think this vast conspiracy is in motion, that's fine with me. But please be careful - I'm concerned you're going to end up like one of those guys in the video crashing through the gate and/or totalling your car when you forget to turn your ETC power circuit back on early enough.

It's MUCH easier to believe that passive toll collection devices (like in the U.S.) are being abused, since the government could just pop up a roadside transceiver without telling anybody.

[Coligny]

That's because remarkably few of us are RF engineers who can read technical specifications in Japanese, or want to sign the contracts with NEXCO and then purchase documentation.


You appear to be right that the specifications are not proprietary, as I noted above.

Wow, what kind of guarantee do you want, tearing open each individual device and reverse engineering it?

Nope. Guarantee are to be stated on the contract. It's a matter of law, not alien anal probing.

The specifications are public. Your conspiracy theory requires one to believe that every ETC device manufacturer is in cahoots with the government to transmit information that's not supposed to be transmitted, and they've all kept their mouths shut about it so the general public doesn't find out. And that Japanese private citizens, which includes lots of people who are engineers and do read Japanese, and who are notoriously sensitive about private data leakage (remember the Juki Net uproar), have not bothered to check these specifications.

Straw man argument. There is no need to hide anything, to make it secret or on purpose. There is just the need for something to be done in an incredibly stupid manner spec-wise. All the data leaks from japan and england are not from evil genius in their mad science labs. It's most of the time thanks to some cretin who forgot his laptop at the pub or Joe Tanaka who was unable to configure Winny properly. And the trouble is not aboot WHAT is transmitted, but WHEN it's transmitted.

I think it's a stretch! If it makes you feel better to think this vast conspiracy is in motion, that's fine with me. But please be careful - I'm concerned you're going to end up like one of those guys in the video crashing through the gate and/or totalling your car when you forget to turn your ETC power circuit back on early enough.

As said. Even if you don't bother to pay attention. ETC shut off is for me to use it on daily use. Not to shut it down while on the highway or during a trip including high highway use. Stop ridiculising my arguments, i'm not talking aboot conspiracy. I'm talking aboot a system whose in and out seems to escape us and have potential for abuse. It's not aboot invasive governement. It's aboot the possibility of excessive and illegitimate data collection who can with the japanese mix of arrogance and utter incompetence in the IT field end up on every bittorrent tracker the next day.

It's MUCH easier to believe that passive toll collection devices (like in the U.S.) are being abused, since the government could just pop up a roadside transceiver without telling anybody.

Yeah... ignoring potential problems is always easier.

[omae mona]

Nope. Guarantee are to be stated on the contract. It's a matter of law, not alien anal probing.

There is no need to hide anything, to make it secret or on purpose. There is just the need for something to be done in an incredibly stupid manner spec-wise.

I'm confused. Are you concerned about information leakage because they did not legally guarantee protection, so they are entitled to use your data however they want? Or are you concerned about unintentional information leakage due to technical flaws? Obviously contractual language can't prevent a flawed system from leaking your data (though it might give you more legal recourse to sue afterwards).

As said. Even if you don't bother to pay attention. ETC shut off is for me to use it on daily use. Not to shut it down while on the highway or during a trip including high highway use. Stop ridiculising my arguments, i'm not talking aboot conspiracy.

My apologies. I honestly thought you were talking about conspiracy, and there was no intent to ridiculise your arguments.

I'm talking aboot a system whose in and out seems to escape us and have potential for abuse. It's not aboot invasive governement. It's aboot the possibility of excessive and illegitimate data collection who can with the japanese mix of arrogance and utter incompetence in the IT field end up on every bittorrent tracker the next day.

I understand. I even think you have a valid concern regarding the data collected when you actually pay a toll with your ETC device turned on and a card inserted (which you obviously plan to do anyway). But given what we do know about the technology, including the fact that it requires active transmission from your device, uses encryption, and requires some pretty fancy roadside transceivers to activate the thing, I don't understand how information could possibly accidentally leak from your device when you are not at a toll gate, without your knowledge. Unless there is a conspiracy, and you said that's off the table.

Yeah... ignoring potential problems is always easier.

I'm not ignoring it. I just think that this "potential" of accidental data leakage while I'm between tolls is probably a million times less likely than me getting hit by lightning, given what I understand about ETC. And furthermore, if somebody went to all that trouble to find out where I'm driving, I really don't care. So for me, installing a custom power switch would have been vastly out of proportion to my level of concern. Like I said, if it makes you feel better, then all the more power to you.