Iris Chang's Mother

[BO-SENSEI]

[Samurai_Jerk]

[AssKissinger]

[BO-SENSEI]

The style of debate here is not convincing me that your right, it is telling me that I am wrong, and I am not convinced. Try to convice me.

[Number11]

General Douglas MacArthur, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, General Omar N. Bradley, Admiral William D. Leahy, Admiral Ernest J. King, Admiral Chester Nimitz, Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey and General Henry Arnold believed that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unnecessary to end the war and said so. But they were just a bunch of uneducated bumpkins and not elite thinkers like BO is.

So much for the myth, huh?

[AssKissinger]

Where ever your not

From college boy's sig. Listen boy genius. That's 'wherever' (one fucking word) and 'you're'. It's a contraction.

The style of debate here is not convincing me that your right

Nobody gives a fuck what you think retard but before you start suggesting folks around here are stupid you might want to learn how to write.

[BO-SENSEI]

General Douglas MacArthur, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, General Omar N. Bradley, Admiral William D. Leahy, Admiral Ernest J. King, Admiral Chester Nimitz, Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey and General Henry Arnold believed that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unnecessary to end the war and said so. But they were just a bunch of uneducated bumpkins and not elite thinkers like BO is.

So much for the myth, huh?

Oh, thank god, someone with a brain, a bit rough, but i'll take anything at this point, weird that I have not heard this argument before and am glad that you brought this to my attention and I will look into it.

by the way, next time, i would leave halsey off that list, he was a moron.

[Mike Oxlong]

Oh, thank god, someone with a brain, a bit rough, but i'll take anything at this point, weird that I have not heard this argument before and am glad that you brought this to my attention and I will look into it.

by the way, next time, i would leave halsey off that list, he was a moron.

Weird that at your tender age you haven't seen and heard everything? You must be quite the extraordinary laddy...

Could you develop your premise that Halsey was a moron for us morons?

[BO-SENSEI]

http://www.desausa.org/typhoon_of_1944.htm

Great career destroyed by one huge mistake.

[Number11]

Contrary to opinion today, many military leaders of the time -- including six out of seven five-star officers -- criticized the use of the atomic bomb.

Take, for example, Admiral William Leahy, White House chief of staff and chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff during the war. Leahy wrote in his 1950 memoirs that "the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender." Moreover, Leahy continued, "in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make war in that fashion, and wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."

President Dwight Eisenhower, the Allied commander in Europe during World War II, recalled in 1963, as he did on several other occasions, that he had opposed using the atomic bomb on Japan during a July 1945 meeting with Secretary of War Henry Stimson: "I told him I was against it on two counts. First, the Japanese were ready to surrender and it wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing. Second, I hated to see our country be the first to use such a weapon."

Admiral William "Bull" Halsey, the tough and outspoken commander of the U.S. Third Fleet, which participated in the American offensive against the Japanese home islands in the final months of the war, publicly stated in 1946 that "the first atomic bomb was an unnecessary experiment." The Japanese, he noted, had "put out a lot of peace feelers through Russia long before" the bomb was used.

General Douglas MacArthur, Commander of US Army forces in the Pacific, stated on numerous occasions before his death that the atomic bomb was completely unnecessary from a military point of view: "My staff was unanimous in believing that Japan was on the point of collapse and surrender."

General Curtis LeMay, who had pioneered precision bombing of Germany and Japan (and who later headed the Strategic Air Command and served as Air Force chief of staff), put it most succinctly: "The atomic bomb had nothing to do with the end of the war."

Henry H. ("Hap") Arnold, commanding General of the Army air forces, declared in his 1949 memoirs: "It always appeared to us, atomic bomb or no atomic bomb, the Japanese were already on the verge of collapse." This was confirmed by former Japanese prime minister Fumimaro Konoye, who said: "Fundamentally, the thing that brought about the determination to make peace was the prolonged bombing by the B-29s."

Admiral Ernest King, US Chief of Naval Operations, said that "the effective naval blockade would, in the course of time, have starved the Japanese into submission through lack of oil, rice, medicines, and other essential materials."

Some additional statements on the atomic bombings:

JOSEPH GREW
(Under Sec. of State)
"...in the light of available evidence I myself and others felt that if such a categorical statement about the [retention of the] dynasty had been issued in May, 1945, the surrender-minded elements in the [Japanese] Government might well have been afforded by such a statement a valid reason and the necessary strength to come to an early clearcut decision."

JOHN McCLOY
(Assistant Sec. of War)
"I believe we missed the opportunity of effecting a Japanese surrender, completely satisfactory to us, without the necessity of dropping the bombs."

RALPH BARD
(Under Sec. of the Navy)
"In my opinion, the Japanese war was really won before we ever used the atom bomb."

LEWIS STRAUSS
(Special Assistant to the Sec. of the Navy)
"It seemed to me that such a weapon was not necessary to bring the war to a successful conclusion, that once used it would find its way into the armaments of the world...".

PAUL NITZE
(Vice Chairman, U.S. Strategic Bombing Survey)
In 1950 Paul Nitze would recommend a massive military buildup, and in the 1980s he was an arms control negotiator in the Reagan administration. In July of 1945 he was assigned the task of writing a strategy for the air attack on Japan. Nitze later wrote:

"While I was working on the new plan of air attack... concluded that even without the atomic bomb, Japan was likely to surrender in a matter of months. My own view was that Japan would capitulate by November 1945."

ELLIS ZACHARIAS
(Deputy Director of the Office of Naval Intelligence)
"Just when the Japanese were ready to capitulate, we went ahead and introduced to the world the most devastating weapon it had ever seen and, in effect, gave the go-ahead to Russia to swarm over Eastern Asia. Washington decided that Japan had been given its chance and now it was time to use the A-bomb. I submit that it was the wrong decision. It was wrong on strategic grounds. And it was wrong on humanitarian grounds."

GENERAL CARL "TOOEY" SPAATZ
(In charge of Air Force operations in the Pacific)
General Spaatz was the person who received the order for the Air Force to "deliver its first special bomb as soon as weather will permit visual bombing after about 3 August 1945.

"The dropping of the atomic bomb was done by a military man under military orders. We're supposed to carry out orders and not question them."

"On the other hand if they knew or were told that no invasion would take place [and] that [conventional] bombing would continue until the surrender, why I think the surrender would have taken place just about the same time."

BRIGADIER GENERAL CARTER CLARKE
(The military intelligence officer in charge of preparing intercepted Japanese cables - the MAGIC summaries - for Truman and his advisors)
"...when we didn't need to do it, and we knew we didn't need to do it, and they knew that we knew we didn't need to do it, we used them as an experiment for two atomic bombs."

[Samurai_Jerk]

General Douglas MacArthur, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, General Omar N. Bradley, Admiral William D. Leahy, Admiral Ernest J. King, Admiral Chester Nimitz, Admiral William F. "Bull" Halsey and General Henry Arnold believed that the bombing of Hiroshima and Nagasaki was unnecessary to end the war and said so. But they were just a bunch of uneducated bumpkins and not elite thinkers like BO is.

So much for the myth, huh?

Though he wasn't a general or an admiral you can add former Secretary of Defense and WWII vet Robert McNamara to that list.

Edit: At least he feels so in retrospect.

[Samurai_Jerk]

BO-SENSEI,

Are you a native speaker of English? I ask not to insult you, but because your writing is not native like and you seem to miss the point of what people are posting.

You posted that "We are not proud we did that but America has appologized (for the atomic bombings)." I asked "Why the fuck would America apologize for defeating an agressor nation that was a threat to the World and bringing the most destructive war in history to an end?". What seemed to go over your head is that I was saying those outcomes were the result of the atomic bombings but you went off as if I were comepletely changing topics and accusing you of saying something you didn't.

I won't make fun of you just because English isn't your first language, but you shouldn't be getting worked up and trying to engage in debate with people when you can't even comprehend what they're writing.

And going to college doesn't make you smart anymore than not going makes you stupid.

[Number11]

It's interesting to read Truman's diary in its original hand-written form, especially of his interaction with Stalin during the Potsdam conference.

Another myth that gets beaten to a pulp by career military officers at the war colleges is the myth of Iwo Jima. After tearing away the veneer of emotion and using hard logic, they always come away disappointed and deflated at the reality. It was poorly planned and violated the even the doctrine of the day for time of pre-invasion bombardment. Competing egos of commanders contributed to the disaster.

The public was outraged and demanded a court martial over the lives lost over a worthless piece of rock. They could have simply gone around it and kept up a blockade.

The administration was frightened by the congressional and public outcry at the casualties and created false reasons and data (post invasion) to justify it. There was no original plan to use it as a fighter base to cover B-29 missions. That was added post disaster as justification, but only two escort missions were ever flown from Iwo Jima. It was too hard on the pilots because it was too far to Japan and B-29s flew too high. The P-51s assigned were not pressurized, but the B-19 was.

Every single flight in and out of Iwo Jima, and every single crew member, even training, weather and supply flights, were falsely labeled as lives and aircraft "saved" because of the invasion.

Most officers come away from an analysis of it with an unusual "denialist" take that the PR from it made the tactical and strategic error of it worthwhile. A strange and conflicting set of emotions.

[Number11]

I was going to ask the same thing about his native language. Native speakers can't possible graduate from college with such poor writing skills, can they?

[Samurai_Jerk]

By the way, some of you may not know this but Greji is not only a veteran of the Pacific War but was actually a member of the flight crew that bombed Nagasaki. This photo of him was published in the New York Times soon after.

[nottu]

[Mulboyne]

[BO-SENSEI]

You know me, I never quit when I should.

[Mulboyne]

Japan Focus: Four Days in May: Henry L. Stimson and the Decision to Use the Atomic Bomb

The piece above, by the author Sean L. Malloy, is an expanded and revised version of a chapter in his 2008 book "Atomic Tragedy: Henry L. Stimson and the Decision to Use the Bomb Against Japan".

For some idea of different sides in the debate, you could look at the attack by Robert Maddox on Sherwin & Bird's Pulitzer Prize-winning biography of Oppenheimer and their response.

[Takechanpoo]

After all this BO-SENSEI dudeself confessed that he spoke about Northasian history as if he know all of it in spite of having only shallow incomplete knowledge bases about it. Chinese or Korean manipulators DO know that in America and Europe there are not a few "nice guys" like BO-SENSEI or rooboy who have only superficial sense of justice but have no deep knowledge about Northeast Asian history and culture. These "nice guys" are easily manipulated by Chinese or Korean sensationalism about Empire Japan and are unconsciously used as vanguards of C or K.
I wholeheartedly feel sorry for you.

[Number11]

Robert Maddox is extraordinary. He states: "Bird and Sherwin are unable to produce even a wisp of evidence that Japan was willing to surrender before the atomic bombs were dropped."

Here is Truman's handwritten evidence in his July 18th diary entry from Potsdam that Maddox is either unaware of, and therefore unqualified to remark at all about that time in history, or he is a liar.

In the diary entry, Truman acknowledges the existence of the telegram from the emperor asking for peace.

There was no difference between the terms offered by Japan and the terms eventually accepted by the Allies. The only difference was that Russia was going to enter the Pacific war and clock was ticking.

Truman had already made up his mind to use it. He even made his mind up to tell Stalin about it to gloat a little, but Stalin didn't understand the significance of what Truman told him.

Truman was as torn as Stimson when the reports of the devastation got back to Washington DC. Some members of Congress (Sen. Russell Long, for example) wanted him to never accept any surrender and urged him to continue production and use every single bomb produced to "exterminate" every Japanese man , woman and child. He wanted every city bombed until all Japanese were wiped from the Earth. To his credit, Truman halted all bombing after Nagasaki because he had pangs of guilt and said that he wasn't going to kill any more "innocent women and children."

Sen. Long continued his mania by supporting a plan in conjunction with General LeMay to stockpile the next fifty atomic bombs produced after the surrender and use them simultaneously in a sneak attack against fifty cities in Russia.

You couldn't write science fiction any more scary than what LeMay and Long dreamed up in their careers. After the first incendiary raid of Tokyo, LeMay congratulated the pilots for "Killing more people in less time than ever before in the history of mankind." He was one fucked up gaijin, instead of a fucked gaijin.

[Number11]

I'm tired of this topic. I've changed my views as I've grown older and wiser, after researching more, reading more and understanding more about the strange rationale politicians manufacture to create their own reality of the world.

Here is my final answer to the big question: the war was no different than a playground fight between 10 year-old boys. In the end, the weaker one said, "Okay! I give up! I give!"

The stronger boy said, "Not good enough! Tell me I'm the strongest kid on the block and say it ten times!"

The stronger kid killed hundreds of thousands of people until the weaker kid said the right words.

I'm done. You all can form your own opinion.

fini

[Mock Cockpit]

Truman was as torn as Stimson when the reports of the devastation got back to Washington DC. Some members of Congress (Sen. Russell Long, for example) wanted him to never accept any surrender and urged him to continue production and use every single bomb produced to "exterminate" every Japanese man , woman and child. He wanted every city bombed until all Japanese were wiped from the Earth. To his credit, Truman halted all bombing after Nagasaki because he had pangs of guilt and said that he wasn't going to kill any more "innocent women and children."

Sen. Long continued his mania by supporting a plan in conjunction with General LeMay to stockpile the next fifty atomic bombs produced after the surrender and use them simultaneously in a sneak attack against fifty cities in Russia.

You couldn't write science fiction any more scary than what LeMay and Long dreamed up in their careers.

As I'd never heard of Sen. Long and he appears to be a somewhat "interesting" character I googled him. Seems he wasn't even elected to the senate until 1948 so either you're talking shit or you've got the wrong bloke.

[Number11]

Sorry, Russell of Georgia, not Long.

[McTojo]

There are also aparently issues with and doubts about some of the evidence and methods Chang used in researching TRNK. I think what she put in the book was true overall, but I also think that her personal feelings and agenda probably prevented her from looking at things objectively and made her ready to believe anything she was told regardless of how thin the evidence was. I've read it and the tone is definitely not balanced which I don't have a problem with in and of itself. However it could be problematic if you're looking for an objective scholarly work and not an editorial. What's infuriating are the Japan apologists who want to dismiss the whole thing as fiction because some parts might be exaggerated or nothing more than annecdotal evidence.

[True overall]....this statement doesn't make sense. It's either factually sound or flimsy having no factual basis whatsoever. Iris Chang's work has been criticized for its authenticity. A lot of her work has been disproven and is not a definitive account of what she claims to have taken place.

[rooboy]

[True overall]....this statement doesn't make sense. It's either factually sound or flimsy having no factual basis whatsoever. Iris Chang's work has been criticized for its authenticity. A lot of her work has been disproven and is not a definitive account of what she claims to have taken place.

Oh go fuck yourself up the arse and get a sex life.

What's not in dispute (except for Japanese morons of ultra nationalistic persuasion and their apologists who often run under the covering lie of being 'moderates' and 'revisionists') about the Rape of Nanjing is that it happened.

Full stop. End of story. Enough journalists reported on it including a German journalist who is a valuable primary source. It's as factual as Kristal Nacht in Germany and the Fall of Singapore which in itself was fucking bad.

Don't give us your childish autistic replies about how slavery happened and all these other terrible things - their existence doesn't excuse one of the biggest war crimes of the 20th century and there's plenty of fucked up examples from then.

Samurai Jerk gave a normal reply, something a useless arsewipe like yourself is incapable of - while Chang exposed Imperial Japan's barbarism against civilians in China, she also used a few sources that weren't watertight. I reckon at least one of the photos in the book is doctored.

She also didn't look at how fucking ruthless Chiang Kai Shek's troops were, there's more to that story but the fact is Nanjing was just another frenzied, savage episode in the life of the Japanese Imperial Army. No samurai honour there, all the attacks on civilians done in the name of a snivelling cowardly Emperor.

Nanjing's rape has been well documented, Chang just got the attention for her book. The morons in Japan who deny it are clutching at more straws than in your opinions. I read this bullshit somewhere, some arshole who calls himself an academic said the Rape of Nanjing couldn't have happened because he looked at soldiers' diaries from the day and night before and they were 'too busy to be preparing for a massacre'. What a cunt to say this bullshit and pretend it's academic research.

Even fucking Hitler and the Nazis called murdering millions of Jews 'Evacuation to the east.' Murderous leaders don't tell their soldiers to write about it in a diary but they tell em to act as if everything is business as usual.

[McTojo]

Oh go fuck yourself up the arse and get a sex life.

What's not in dispute (except for Japanese morons of ultra nationalistic persuasion and their apologists who often run under the covering lie of being 'moderates' and 'revisionists') about the Rape of Nanjing is that it happened.

Full stop. End of story. Enough journalists reported on it including a German journalist who is a valuable primary source. It's as factual as Kristal Nacht in Germany and the Fall of Singapore which in itself was fucking bad.

Don't give us your childish autistic replies about how slavery happened and all these other terrible things - their existence doesn't excuse one of the biggest war crimes of the 20th century and there's plenty of fucked up examples from then.

Samurai Jerk gave a normal reply, something a useless arsewipe like yourself is incapable of - while Chang exposed Imperial Japan's barbarism against civilians in China, she also used a few sources that weren't watertight. I reckon at least one of the photos in the book is doctored.

She also didn't look at how fucking ruthless Chiang Kai Shek's troops were, there's more to that story but the fact is Nanjing was just another frenzied, savage episode in the life of the Japanese Imperial Army. No samurai honour there, all the attacks on civilians done in the name of a snivelling cowardly Emperor.

Nanjing's rape has been well documented, Chang just got the attention for her book. The morons in Japan who deny it are clutching at more straws than in your opinions. I read this bullshit somewhere, some arshole who calls himself an academic said the Rape of Nanjing couldn't have happened because he looked at soldiers' diaries from the day and night before and they were 'too busy to be preparing for a massacre'. What a cunt to say this bullshit and pretend it's academic research.

Even fucking Hitler and the Nazis called murdering millions of Jews 'Evacuation to the east.' Murderous leaders don't tell their soldiers to write about it in a diary but they tell em to act as if everything is business as usual.

I wasn't denying that there wasn't a Nanking, but I question anybody anything that comes out of your clap trap. Chang was being disingenuous in her claims, like so many other Chinese whiners. This was no fucking Holocaust you moron, this was just war. What the African Americans experienced in the 15th 16th 17th and 19th Centuries could easily be considered a Holocaust.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Oh go fuck yourself up the arse and get a sex life.

What's not in dispute (except for Japanese morons of ultra nationalistic persuasion and their apologists who often run under the covering lie of being 'moderates' and 'revisionists') about the Rape of Nanjing is that it happened.

Full stop. End of story. Enough journalists reported on it including a German journalist who is a valuable primary source. It's as factual as Kristal Nacht in Germany and the Fall of Singapore which in itself was fucking bad.

Don't give us your childish autistic replies about how slavery happened and all these other terrible things - their existence doesn't excuse one of the biggest war crimes of the 20th century and there's plenty of fucked up examples from then.

Samurai Jerk gave a normal reply, something a useless arsewipe like yourself is incapable of - while Chang exposed Imperial Japan's barbarism against civilians in China, she also used a few sources that weren't watertight. I reckon at least one of the photos in the book is doctored.

She also didn't look at how fucking ruthless Chiang Kai Shek's troops were, there's more to that story but the fact is Nanjing was just another frenzied, savage episode in the life of the Japanese Imperial Army. No samurai honour there, all the attacks on civilians done in the name of a snivelling cowardly Emperor.

Nanjing's rape has been well documented, Chang just got the attention for her book. The morons in Japan who deny it are clutching at more straws than in your opinions. I read this bullshit somewhere, some arshole who calls himself an academic said the Rape of Nanjing couldn't have happened because he looked at soldiers' diaries from the day and night before and they were 'too busy to be preparing for a massacre'. What a cunt to say this bullshit and pretend it's academic research.

Even fucking Hitler and the Nazis called murdering millions of Jews 'Evacuation to the east.' Murderous leaders don't tell their soldiers to write about it in a diary but they tell em to act as if everything is business as usual.

Basically what he said.

McToadChode, go fuck yourself.

[Yokohammer]

Rooboy,

Tried to give you a greenie for that but apparently I have to spread the love.

Eloquently stated!

[Taro Toporific]