School Girl Makes Japan Uneasy(not what you think)

[Behan]

I thought that graduating from a prestigious school like Todai or Waseda was a ticket into a big company. I'm not arguing with you, though. I think that experience is a lot more valuable than some ink on a sheet of paper. Graduating from a famous school might be more proof that your daddy is rich than you are smart or educated.

[xenomorph42]

[quote="Number11"]

Japan found it's way out of the so-called lost decade on its own. Will the US find its way out of the coming depression by bringing clever foreigners in to save America?

Already have more than enough clever foreigners in the U.S. *Check* UC Irvine.

That is NOT the issue whether the U.S has a substantial number of foreigners or not, it boils down to Obama his somewhat questionable cabinet and if he/they can do what he was ultimately elected to do, which is stabilize the economy. But by the looks of it, seems like the overall deficit is mounting. Some change.

[xenomorph42]

[quote="BO-SENSEI"]Wow, that is beyond fucked up, and you did the right thing regardless of the outcome. If standing up for women is not a part of Japanese culture it should be clear that there are some things that Japan still needs to adopt in the 21st century.[/QUOTE

This is why, I never get involved in domestic disputes in Japan, I heard similar stories along that line, so I decided to mind my own bees wax and if the girl gets head smashed in....well, I will just walk away and hope the good lord can protect her. I found out from experience: not worth it.

[Number11]

"Already have more than enough clever foreigners in the U.S. *Check* UC Irvine."

Yes, it is the issue. It's how people have a double standard and are just as xenophobic as Japan, if not more so. People get snarky about foreigners in their own country, but think Japan needs foreigners (like themselves) to grow is some way.

[BO-SENSEI]

First of all, just because i quoted the "obivous solution" has no impact on whether i agree with it or not. It seems like everything I post is being reposted and disected, and you guys are putting more meaning behind then you have the right too. And notto, you are a pussy for ignoring my request for your opinion. All you fucking do is rip into everything that I say without putting yourself on the line. A debate is not telling the other guy their wrong, a debate in convincing me that I wrong.

[nottu]

[BO-SENSEI]

[wuchan]

I thought that graduating from a prestigious school like Todai or Waseda was a ticket into a big company. I'm not arguing with you, though. I think that experience is a lot more valuable than some ink on a sheet of paper. Graduating from a famous school might be more proof that your daddy is rich than you are smart or educated.

You are correct if we are talking about j-workers looking for jobs in j-land with zero experience. A category that most of us don't fall into.

[nottu]

[BO-SENSEI]

Good. Settled. Done.

[xenomorph42]

"Already have more than enough clever foreigners in the U.S. *Check* UC Irvine."

Yes, it is the issue. It's how people have a double standard and are just as xenophobic as Japan, if not more so. People get snarky about foreigners in their own country, but think Japan needs foreigners (like themselves) to grow is some way.

But most Americans DO NOT care about foreigners entering into the country as most Japanese ARE a more apprehensive, there's no doubt about it. Again, as I once stated; Most Americans are opposed to "Illegal immigration" NOT legal. So there is no double standard. Yea, you have some idiot radical far right morons that want and feel that the U.S. is a white's only nation, but that is not the feeling of most Americans. But if you have people living in hiding, mooching of the system, I think you have the right to voice your discontent! No one is saying Japan has to be like western nation. But for a country that claims to be a global player and that really doesn't want to embrace openness or internationalization and "IS" extremely xenophobic *see Debito* does have some serious issues...and don't get me started on how Japan's neighbors view them. That's for another discussion.
Japan wishes it could possibly turn back the clock and close its doors, fine. But remember: this is a country with no natural resources and an every growing aging population, shrinking economy that is heavily dependent on the the U.S. consumer market (and we all know how the economy is over there)Women do not have a lot of opportunities even if they have skills. Let's not forget, after 30, most women are considered retirees.
Yea, Japan can do what it wants, but in the long run, they are hurting themselves and if they want that kind of a demise, fine with me.

[Mulboyne]

Addressing the Calderon case specifically, a number of people point out that it's all the fault of her parents and they should take responsibility for their actions. I don't think anyone denies that her parents acted illegally so I don't really see the point of bringing that up. They aren't asking for any changes to the immigration law or nationality law. They aren't claiming a legal right of residence or for convictions to be overturned. Instead, what the family are seeking is special permission to stay. The question seems to me to be entirely about what circumstances are sufficient to win this permission.

The whole point of such a permission is to recognize that there may be cases where the legal position is fairly clear but where deportation or refusing entry might not be the most appropriate action. That is, it is always about the extent of a government's largesse. By deciding that Noriko can stay but her parents must be deported, it seems to me that the Japanese government has fallen between two stools. Clearly, they have decided that Noriko is worthy of their compassion but they couldn't resist wanting to punish the parents. What they were being asked to do, however, was choose which was most important principle to uphold and they have ended up choosing neither.

If the decision had been to deport the whole family, it would have been clear that the government was taking a firm stance against illegal immigrants. It would have been a harsh decision but not unfair. Certainly, it would also have begged the question of whether any family could ever be granted special permission to stay because Noriko is a poster girl for this kind of case. She is not so young that she could start a new life and new education without considerable disruption and she is not yet old enough to look after herself. She speaks Japanese fluently and expresses herself well. She could even be mistaken for a Japanese national in appearance. You wonder what would have convinced the MoJ to let her parents stay. Would it have helped if she was a good volleyball or table tennis player? Or if she was a different nationality?

By deciding that Noriko should be allowed to stay the Government should have followed their own logic and allowed the parents permission to stay. Not through gritted teeth but in a spirit of magnanimity which would have reflected well on the state.

[Number11]

It does seem consistent with the ruling about the Iranian girl though, doesn't it, Mulboyne? She was given permission to stay (which she did) but the parents had to leave. I don't know the details, but there must have been some guardian arrangement here with another family for her. I would think that Noriko could also have that type of arrangement and there would be many families volunteering to do that.

I don't think there is an immigration bureaucracy in the world that operates on magnanimity or is concerned about anything other than serving the state it is a part of.

I am glad that I'm not someone who makes those decisions every day. Probably you are too?

(xenomorph42: I've lived in Japan for probably longer than you've been alive, so please just stop. Arrrrghhhh! Every single thing you're just figuring out about life and Japan, I went through decades ago. Aargghh! It's like the movie Groundhog Day!)

[AssKissinger]

By deciding that Noriko should be allowed to stay the Government should have followed their own logic and allowed the parents permission to stay. Not through gritted teeth but in a spirit of magnanimity which would have reflected well on the state.

By setting that precedent they would be opening a big can of worms that would be destructive to Japanese society.

I would more likely go this way:

By deciding that her parents should not be allowed to stay the Government should have followed their own logic and not allowed Noriko to stay. Not through gritted teeth but in a spirit of magnanimity which would have reflected well on the state.

[Mulboyne]

It does seem consistent with the ruling about the Iranian girl though, doesn't it

The Iranian Girl, Maryam Amine, was already 18 when she was granted permission to stay as a foreign student so it doesn't make for a great comparison because she was able to look after herself. Certainly, the case dragged on for several years so she was old enough to do so by the time the decision was handed down.

By deciding that her parents should not be allowed to stay the Government should have followed their own logic and not allowed Noriko to stay. Not through gritted teeth but in a spirit of magnanimity which would have reflected well on the state.

That's obviously the other route and, as I mention, I don't think the family would have real grounds for complaint because they knew what they were doing and the law is fairly clear. There would be no magnanimity there, though. Magnanimous is when you grant something in your power which you are under no obligation to give. Sending the family home grants nothing. You could call such a decision fair, just or right but not magnanimous.

The idea that allowing her parents to stay would set a precedent is rubbish. It's a special permission. It sets no more of a precedent than the former Justice Minister's decision not to approve any executions. When a US president grants a pardon, no-one worries about setting a precedent and, on a different scale, it is the same with a special permission in Japan. Moreover, special permission can be withdrawn at any time so the government would still retain the right to deport Noriko's parents, and the girl herself, in the future. Any subsequent cases would be dealt with on their own merits. If a thousand families came forward hoping for the same treatment, the government would still be within their rights to deport them all. One 13 year old girl might tug at the nation's heartstrings but public goodwill would soon be exhausted with a larger number of cases.

Number11 says that no immigration bureau uses magnanimity as a guiding principle and that is certainly true. Anyone following the debates on immigration will have noticed growing opposition in many parts of the world so most populations don't want a caring immigration service, they want hardliners. While the Calderon case raises questions about immigration, it is really a separate debate entirely. You can easily enforce current laws and deport offenders while wondering whether to encourage immigration just as you could allow some people to stay while trying to seal off your borders. Greater immigration may be one solution for Japan but it is by no means an obvious one as some appear to claim.

Personally, I don't know what decision I would make in the Calderon case. I don't believe the girl's life will be ruined by deportation but I can understand why the lawyer wants to make such a claim. The Government doesn't owe the family anything but, once they decided they would grant the girl the opportunity to stay, I think they should have bitten the bullet and let the family stay. They could have then started framing the story in terms of promoting Japanese educational values and claimed some credit from the whole affair whereas now they are just fudging around. In one recent announcement they said that the family would be allowed to visit Noriko in Japan if she stayed so they are already backtracking on the usual restrictions which follow a deportation.

[Buraku]

What fucking "magnanimity" AssKissinger? Japan will be going through a self inflicted hara kiri on its work force soon enough I don't call that magnanimity but maybe you've a different definition of the word.
All you will have to look forward to is a society of J-grannies and granpas ready to go to the grave and an economy about to go completely stagnant. Much like Japan went into self imposed isolated in the 17th before Perry forced them to wake the fuck up

I'm not some kind of cultural imperialist, I think Japan has many great things about its culture and society so I don't think Japan should simply open the flood gates and allow every fucking illegal and gangster and junkie flooding in from Indonesia, Pakistan, Europe, America, Korea, Africa...all assholes from where ever the fuck into the country. With Euro style immigration you get thousands of people with no clue about Japanese customs or Japanese language and soon its going to be a massive weight on society
The bullshit of Multi culturalism is why Europe and the States have so many problems

However on the flipside you've got the bullshit of bloodline fascism,
its still easy enough to fuck over the J-system, all you have to do is get hitched to a pure blood
Noriko Calderon's parents could played this game and could have got a divorce and paid for some marriage of convenience to some lonely J housewife or J salary man
but they didn't. THEY WERE HONEST ABOUT THEIR SITUATION

It amazes me how fucked up and closed the J-system can be. I mean WTF is up with the Kankokujin thing. You would think that shit would be tackled by now. It amazes me that a people who live in Japan, obey the law, speak Japanese, pay their taxes until death, are still denied full rights.
WTF is it with the public always calling these people 3.5 generation Korean or some shit.
It amazes me such terms are allowed to be used in Japan.
Maybe Japan is correct and what's wrong with America and Europe is we allow people to god-forbid immigrate into the counry
maybe we should calling Lieberman 3.5 Jew, Obama 2.5 Africa, and most of Hollywood 1.5 Spic! and be trying to get all these 'foreigners' deported ASAP

[Number11]

But they can naturalize any day that they want, and at least 8,000 naturalize every year. And just for the record, South Korea is a jus sanguinis nation.

[Taro Toporific]

Filipino parents decide to leave daughter behind in Japan
Mar. 13 TOKYO, Japan
Noriko Calderon (R) and her father Arlan appear dejected at a press conference in Tokyo on March 13. Arlan and his wife Sarah, both undocumented, have decided to return to the Philippines and to leave their 13-year-old Japan-born daughter behind. (Kyodo)

[xenomorph42]

I'm not some kind of cultural imperialist, I think Japan has many great things about its culture and society so I don't think Japan should simply open the flood gates and allow every fucking illegal and gangster and junkie flooding in from Indonesia, Pakistan, Europe, America, Korea, Africa...all assholes from where ever the fuck into the country. With Euro style immigration you get thousands of people with no clue about Japanese customs or Japanese language and soon its going to be a massive weight on society
The bullshit of Multi culturalism is why Europe and the States have so many problems

That is not entirely true. There are other underlining reasons as to why there are many problems in the States and Europe. Japan does not need to have the same style of immigration that we have. But they would ultimately benefit from some form of multiculturalism sooner or later(and I think it might be sooner) it will happen, it already is.
Racial intolerance is not the answer and will not prevail, if Japan wants to stay afloat, it would only be for their overall benefit to fill in the growing gaps in the working force and why not? This is 2009 the world has gotten so close, yea, we still have problems and always will have racial differences, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have its fair share of complications, but that doesn't negate the fact that Japan has to give up these self-imposed, wall of separation and to further drive a wedge between and the rest if the world.

[wuchan]

That is not entirely true. There are other underlining reasons as to why there are many problems in the States and Europe. Japan does not need to have the same style of immigration that we have. But they would ultimately benefit from some form of multiculturalism sooner or later(and I think it might be sooner) it will happen, it already is.
Racial intolerance is not the answer and will not prevail, if Japan wants to stay afloat, it would only be for their overall benefit to fill in the growing gaps in the working force and why not? This is 2009 the world has gotten so close, yea, we still have problems and always will have racial differences, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have its fair share of complications, but that doesn't negate the fact that Japan has to give up these self-imposed, wall of separation and to further drive a wedge between and the rest if the world.

you seem to forget, TIJ. If a group of people does not conform to the tokyo standard of being japanese, they are not considered japanese. This is a culture that can not handle anyone being different, thus the hammer and nail thing. If the UN and the rest of the world didn't care japan(tokyo) would declare war on hokkaido and okinawa and eradicate the cultures that try to keep their identity.


Edit*
If a j-national tries to quote the hammer and nail crap, tell them "if the hammer has been dipped in liquid nitrogen first the nail will win". Watch the "god you are retarded"look. Then explain the scientific basis of your comment and further explain that with independent taught, one might be able to make an (OMG wait for it) independent opinion. The J-type will still look at you like you are stupid but you will have had some fun.

[nottu]

[nottu]

[Mulboyne]

[nottu]

[xenomorph42]

you seem to forget, TIJ. If a group of people does not conform to the tokyo standard of being japanese, they are not considered japanese. This is a culture that can not handle anyone being different, thus the hammer and nail thing. If the UN and the rest of the world didn't care japan(tokyo) would declare war on hokkaido and okinawa and eradicate the cultures that try to keep their identity.

Of course I'm aware of that. So it makes it right that Japan can live and act like it's still 1830?? If the Chinese can "try"(the keyword)to modernize and be of an international player then what makes Japan so different? Again, Japan is a sinking ship and if they want to be stubborn isolationists, fine by me. Former Japanese PM Koizumi once said, "China is not an economical threat to Japan" that seems to still be the mindset of Japan. So while China will grow and surpass Japan on every level, Japan can keep itself busy Hammering down the nails.

[Mulboyne]

[wuchan]

Of course I'm aware of that. So it makes it right that Japan can live and act like it's still 1830?? If the Chinese can "try"(the keyword)to modernize and be of an international player then what makes Japan so different? .

china is a bad example. They have a military and declare war on parts of their own country. If japan still had a military they would have wiped out all the "other" japanese long ago and would probably control korea.

[xenomorph42]

china is a bad example. They have a military and declare war on parts of their own country. If japan still had a military they would have wiped out all the "other" japanese long ago and would probably control korea.

Semantics! Don't cherry pick, you know what I was referring to. I used that example that China "to an extent" is trying at least to open up more and to modernize themselves, so on that level they got Japan beat. Therefore, on that level, China is a better example.

[Mulboyne]

Here's one recent editorial:

Yomiuri: Clear yardsticks needed for granting residency

The recent controversy involving an undocumented Filipino family has shown that this nation badly needs yardsticks to use when determining whether to grant special residency permits to foreigners living in Japan who do not have proper documentation. Arlan and Sarah Calderon, a Filipino couple who live in Saitama Prefecture, will be deported next month. They have made repeated requests to the justice minister to issue special residency permits since the order to deport them for being illegal stayers was finalized. Justice Minister Eisuke Mori, however, decided to issue a residency permit only to the couple's 13-year-old daughter, Noriko. Noriko was born in Japan and only speaks Japanese. She is currently a first-year student at a public middle school. Mori's decision was a tough blow for the couple and their daughter, who wanted to stay in this country so that Noriko could continue her studies while living with her parents. Last year, the Supreme Court ruled against the family when they sought a nullification of the government's deportation order. This fact, indeed, is of importance when considering this case. The family has relatives in Japan, including Tokyo. They have integrated into their local community and Noriko has her place at school. Mori apparently decided to grant a special residency permit to Noriko because he judged she would be able to remain with the help of her relatives, friends and others. Mori also indicated his intention to grant short-term visiting permits to her parents.

===

Illegal entry swayed decision

The couple have illegally stayed in Japan for more than 15 years. Taking that fact into consideration, we believe the justice minister acted practically in executing immigration policies, which should be strictly adhered to. The couple entered Japan with passports bearing other people's names. The justice minister judged that their cases were more malicious than those of illegal stayers who had entered this nation with legitimate passports. This can be said to be one of factors that led the justice minister to not grant them special residency permits.

===

Decisions made case by case

Currently, there are no clear yardsticks the justice minister can use when deciding whether he or she should issue a special residency permit. The justice minister makes a judgment on a case-by-case basis at his or her discretion, after studying an applicant's reasons for seeking a residency permit and his or her family and living circumstances. The decision will inevitably differ depending on how the justice minister weighs the illegal act of staying without proper documentation against an evaluation of the applicant's living circumstances in Japan. In 2007, special residency permits were granted to about 7,400 foreigners, many of whom were married to a Japanese. Among families who had children of middle school age or older, some received special residency permits for every family member for the reason that they had established themselves in Japan.

Another factor that is believed to have influenced Mori's decision was Noriko's age when the family was first ordered in 2006 to leave the country. Noriko was then a primary school student. Unsuccessful applicants would better understand why their applications for special residency permits had been rejected if there was an age criterion for a child of undocumented foreigners. Britain's policy of granting residency permits to undocumented foreigners who have lived in the country for a certain period of time could serve as a good guide when considering Japan's policy in this regard. Japan's immigration control system will be trusted only when it makes precise decisions based on clear yardsticks.

[rooboy]

shows Japan in a good light - relatively speaking?

Geez, in Australia which is a multicultural place we kept poor bastards fleeing fundamentalists in Afghanistan and poor bloody Pakistanis who just want to live away from fucking morons armed to the teeth and demanding women stay indoors all day and all night, in prison style camps out in the desert!

Technically these people were refugees but the Fed Govt (little Johnny Howard's now gone Liberal (ie conservative) govt decided to send a message to the people running the rackets and who force poor bastards to pay thru the nose for a ship away from the living hells they're in - by treating the refugees like criminals. Eventually they were given citizenship or sent back if they'd falsified documents but come on - they were desperate.

Now we have Japan criticised for leting Noriko stay tho she has no right and not extending the privilege to the parents, and for supposedly wanting a 'pure race' when in fact if you want to hear that garbage, go to Korea and hear it from these mixed Chinese/Japan/Mongols/Central Asian with some Korean thrown in people. You'll never scream about xenophobia in Japan again, even when a cunt of a J policeman decides to earn about 1 yen of the pay he gets by hassling gaijin.

Yeah, the cunts harassing Noriko in Japan are pathetic scum who can't understand why Japan isn't Numba 1 in the world and who think the Japanese had the right to fuck over whoever they could in the name of 'Greater Prosperity'.

But how many Japanese fit into that? Hardly fucking any. Japanese people are like people the world over - they're woried about the future and because they're a typical Asian culture with a mostly homogenous population and a strong tradition of resistance to outsiders (includes people who are Japanese and aren't your family or workmates) then they're not gonna cop anything like mass immigration or even limited immigration yet.

Most Japanese people you get to know are honest about seeing Japan as keeping its own customs but they're more open minded than the insecure, jealous, underdeveloped Koreans any day. These people give a whole new meaning to xenophobia all the while being dirty, cheating liars in jobs as a rule and annoying cunts whining about how they're superior to everybody.

The Japanese are more worried about the impact of foreigners on a country that's had limited experience of them in a time when 'globalisation' means many businessess just want cheap labour from the 3rd World. Japan also hasn't got the welfare system to cope with this kind of situation.