If you were truly an adult

[GomiGirl]

Hook, line and sinker!! hehehe

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

:rofl:

Hook, line and sinker!! hehehe

Your public education induced arrogance knows NO bounds.

[GomiGirl]

The ability to cognitively disassociate is a sign of intelligence..

BTW I was suggesting that it was the insecure (and not the ignorant) that was unable to view the unfamiliar without a sense of fear. Not wanting to validate the opinions of others is just sheer bloody-mindedness.

[DJEB]

Total bullshit Kamome. Where is your evidence that racism isn't inate. It is found in every culture and race around this globe and it has been with us since history has been recorded. Yet, you and your ilk want us to believe that racism is the product of an ignorant mind. No, that is not correct. Racism is normal and we should stop this line of attack if we want to reduce racism. The public school rhethoric is that this is a shameful, ignorant, loathesome response. That line is doing us no good and Amerika is probably more racist than it was in the 1950s.

You want me to believe this isn't a normal human response? You have the burden of proof not me. You and DJEB suck up the public school swill like dogs lap up a puddle of muddy water.

This is your thread based on your claims. You most definitely have the burden of proof.

[DJEB]

The fact is that those sentos are private businesses and should be able to do whatever they want. If their customers in general support the ban it is because of the obnoxious behavior of the Russians who ought to have their asses kicked. Telling private businesses and people that they have no choice but to bathe with these pigs will only further create a divide. No thanks to your America in Japan thing. Wrong move, wrong place, wrong time.

Saying that troublesome customers should not be allowed in is one thing. Saying that an entire nationality or race(s) should be excluded is a whole other ball of wax. The first case is reasonable; the second is discriminatory, unfair and illegal.

Businesses are given their charter with the understanding that are working for the common good. Thus they cannot "do whatever they want." There was a jeweler in Hamamatsu who found this out the hard way when he tried to ban a customer just because she was Brazilian.

[Andocrates]

I have no reason to kiss up to gomigirl, but I think she owns this thread. Her arguments are lucid, I too used to believe racism was inate - but now I think it's learned.

But I will confess I am defiantly prejudiced against Thai's and Philippinoes, I don't know why I just am. Bad childhood experiences I guess.

[DJEB]

my dear, let me tell you I can remember seeing people who looked for different from me when I was still in my babycarriage.

It blew me away. Just like it blows away everyone if they will just admit it. Nothing wrong with that.

The first non-white I remember encountering was a friend of mine from the time we were babies. Eventually, I noticed that she had really curly hair and darker skin, but I honestly didn't realise she was "black" until I was in my teens. Needless to say, her curly hair and dark skin never "blew me away."

All races do this. All people do this so you have got a lot of work to do to convince me that this anything but a normal human reaction.

This is your thread making your claim. Thus it is not our job to convince you of anything. You've stood the whole thing on its head.

It is worldwide, it is nonstop. If it were just a function that were taught, pray tell, who did the first teaching? "Whoever" it was did a damn good job because it caught on more than Jesus Christ Himself. It is NOT taught.

Specious. Astoundingly specious.

For a well balanced, secure and broad-minded person, being confronted with a new (but non-threatening) experience leads to a healthy curiosity. Then the person will judge the "new experience" on its merits.

Let me guess....hmmm.... I bet you put your lofty self in the camp of the enlightened. How fortunate, how special you are...How did you ever become so wise and decent. You are truly a person to be admired....

This is supposed to pass for a rebuttal? Ok then. You have no counter-argument here.

For an insecure and narrow minded person, a new (but non-threatening) experience will induce a fear response. Small minded people hate what they can never understand and are afraid of new experiences. An arrogant person will attempt to cover of the veneer of insecurity with agressive behaviour all the while fearful of others being able to spot the crap coursing through every fibre.

Wow!!! Any "scientific evidence" to back this up??? No, none necessary. I understand. When you spew the same crap out to the rest of the nonthinkers no proof is necessary. I see....

Careful. Someone might notice that you have yet to provide any proof for anything you've said here. GG needn't fall for this red herring.

Some of us have evolved and possess the cognitive capacity to process what we see rationally and without fear. If you cannot take responsibility for your own thought processes then you have not evolved past the animal stage. That is what keeps people from moving forward.

Wow. You are so special. No as a matter of fact you probably qualify as having a low IQ.

Based on???

We are animals Gomi.

Apes, to be exact. But this is irrelevant in the extreme.

We are but a few generations removed from the folks who lived in the dirt and killed other animals to survive. You are quite (as in very) arrogant in even thinking that you are any more than an animal.

Now we get into semantics. What is an animal? An animal like homo sapien, perhaps? And then how is this relevant?

Clearly, the ability to associate and draw conclusions is a sign of intelligence.

Like the way bees can associate UV patterns on plants and associate that with nectar.

It is what allowed us to progress to what we are today (mostly animals like you of the arrogant type). It is only with this ability did "man" achieve his meager achievements.

This is a vast oversimplification as to the causes of the success of the human animal.

You have just told me you don't/can't associate what your eyes see with an expected response.

There's a stretch.

You would have me believe that this is because you have risen above. Frankly my dear you haven't risen at all and if anything the inability to associate probably is indicative of a low IQ.

There's a stretch that you've reached on a faulty premise.

Here it is in math form:

Intelligence = association
Association = racism

Intelligence = racism

Intelligence = association? Yup. Bees are going to take over the world.

And, as a matter of fact, many absolutely brilliant people have been flaming racists.

This is an Appeal to Authority and thus is irrelevant.

So, enough, with this "if you're racist you are ignorant clap trap."

Speaking of clap trap... Being brilliant does not mean that every thought that crosses your mind is brilliant. Albert Einstein once made a comment saying someting like Jewish isolationism was natural and that it was a force of nature that Jews only marry other Jews. Well, go to any major city in North America or Europe and you will find that this brilliant man was wrong about this force of nature.

If you want to put an end to this type of behavior you need to try a new tact. Eliminate the shame please. Eliminate the arrogance please (such as above where you wax barfingly about the virtues of enlightened non-racists like yourself).

Oh. So that's why we have the KKK - because we shamed them.

[jez]

Total bullshit Kamome. Where is your evidence that racism isn't inate. It is found in every culture and race around this globe and it has been with us since history has been recorded.

Like homosexuality?

[jez]

Only when we accept this about ourselves can progress be made. It is people like you that are holding up the show by claiming some moral highground (however, this is only in your mind).

I saw an interesting program about a woman who taught racism awareness classes to try and relieve the situation of the black students who were experiencing trouble.
Her method was to ask a student the first thing he thought about when she asked a black student to the front of the class. You could see the kids anguish as they tried to wriggle their way out with unoffensive "he's tall", "he's a boy", "he has a beard", whatever. She was having absolutely none of it. To the students who kept saying things like "you don't know me, we all have the same soul, the same heart" etc, she kept repeating "this is not the point, you see a black man before that". What she was trying to make people understand is that we instinctively see skin colour. Education then leads you to make negative/positive/neutral assumptions based on colour, and that not recognizing that basic fact was denying a lot of people of a road towards a solution. Why? Because we are all equal as human beings, but we are all different, and when you don't take into account these differences, you don't take into account the difficulties that each person encounters because of that difference. And I'm not just talking about individual, each-person-is unique differences, but cultural/community differences in extension.
Making assumptions on someone is wrong, discriminating against them is wrong, etc etc etc. You've been educated that way and so have I. But to hardcore racists you have to take a braver approach and tackle it by recognizing the primal process that leads them to recognize the difference (eg: "this is a black man") and try to get them to understand that it's the process that happens after that recognition that is unrealistic. Standing there saying "we're all the same" is just asking for the obvious reaction of any racist who can SEE that we're not.
But this subject is completely taboo, and if you suggest something slightly outside the usual lines, you attract suspicion which is pretty pathetic.

Ok, I think I see what you're saying. Just to clarify, is it that While we all(?) see race/coulour first, that should not necessarily lead to racism, ie discrimination? If so, I totally agree with you. Even in a multi-cultural society such as Britain, I'd say we still are very aware of a person's racial features. However, that does not mean we all feel antipathy towards someone because of those racial differences. Cultural differences is another matter.

[jez]

In France, it's the whole guilty of being white syndrome

What do you mean?

[jez]

But I will confess I am defiantly prejudiced against Thai's and Philippinoes, I don't know why I just am. Bad childhood experiences I guess.

You don't know why. That's a start. If you see no rational reason, it's time to discard your prejudices. Most of us probably have at least one prejudice. However, prejudices are not inevitable or unchangeable.

[kamome]

But I will confess I am defiantly prejudiced against Thai's and Philippinoes, I don't know why I just am. Bad childhood experiences I guess.

Give us the details!

[Alcazar]

On reading this thread it is disappointing to see that people cannot move away from this automatic, trained response to use of the word 'racism'.

In the context of the discussion, what Gaisaradatsuraku is saying is that 'racial consciousness' is felt by everyone. 'Racism' itself has in the Western mind connotations of discriminatory behaviour. We need to move beyond the limited vocab associated with race!

Whether people act upon their racial consciousness or not is down to them. But don't deny that racial consciousness is not universal, as it is, and is natural as Gai said. It is a evolutionary survival mechanism, and trying to banish racial consciousness is akin to trying to 'think' your way out of hunger, thirst, or the need to sleep.

And for the people that say they aren't racially conscious, well they are either liars still caught up in some sort of early 1990s PC timewarp, or they have had sheltered lives and have not been put in a situation to feel racial consciousness! Which is unlikely, given that this board is about Westerners in Japan.

Also, racism is NOT learned. The cultural aspects of racism are clearly learned, such as racist names, stories about other races, jokes etc, but not racial consciousness itself.


Alcazar

[GomiGirl]

Well this is a whole new ball of wax.

"Racial conciousness" as you are trying to define it, is akin to having the power of eyesight. Unless people walk around with their eyes shut then we see the world and the people around us.. tall, short, thin, fat, ugly, beautiful, black, white and brindle..

But we are also have different reactions to different people based on our own prejudices and experiences. For example, I like tall, good-looking men, so when my eyes register a tall and handsome guy my brain registered a reaction that would be different to seeing a short female. When did this reaction start? Certainly not at birth as I was not interested in tall goodlooking men in the same way that I am interested in them now. This is something that I learned while growing up.

What is the definition good-looking? It is in the eye of the beholder, surely. So is racism in the eye of the beholder? If yes then this is not universal rather it is in the domain of the individual.

But really rascism is defined by the American Heritage Dictionary as:

1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

Source Dictionary.com

So it is not just me who is defining rascism as negative behaviour.

BTW Alcazar - welcome to the board.

[Alcazar]

Thanks GomiGirl,

I've been reading Fuckedgaijin for ages now and this thread prompted me to join and finally post something. This site really is unique in the wide range of topics discussed and civility of the members, which is great. I wasn't too sure about participating before because on some threads a lot of Japanese language reference were being used, and I don't know that much Japanese to keep up.

I've been to Japan twice (briefly) when I was in school and will be going back early next year to work in the edutainment industry, which I hope will allow me to enjoy myself by being in Japan and earning some money.



Alcazar

[GomiGirl]

edutainment industry

Is this a new way of expressing the Eikaiwa Industry? I haven't heard it before.. classic!!

Most of the time we are civil to each other.. But then many of us have met each other and that seems to make a difference.

[Alcazar]

That would be really strange seeing someone in person that you would have built up a mental image of, just like finally seeing what a radio show host looks like for the first time. And its like 'No way, you don't look like that!'.

Speaking of working in Eikaiwa, I thought it was interesting reading about another industry for gaijin, that being the wedding industry. I'll be a pretend priest if I can find the job.

I couldn't believe it when I read about it, but it would be dead easy. Much like English teaching, you just assume a role the Japanese want to see! Thank god for stereotypes, many people's livelihoods depend on them.



Alcazar

[GargoyleTS]

I wanna teach english until I can get my dream job. Either re-filling the panty-vending machines or being a procurement specialist....for the panties that fill them!

J/K BTW, I love communication and want to do translation work.

[Alcazar]

Gargoyle,

Do they still have panty-vending machines? I thought that was something that was around years ago, but was stopped. Did you ever see someone actually buying from these machines?!

Do they still have live beetle vending machines, or is that craze over?




Alcazar

[DJEB]

Speaking of working in Eikaiwa, I thought it was interesting reading about another industry for gaijin, that being the wedding industry. I'll be a pretend priest if I can find the job.

I couldn't believe it when I read about it, but it would be dead easy. Much like English teaching, you just assume a role the Japanese want to see! Thank god for stereotypes, many people's livelihoods depend on them.

Pretending to be a priest pays BIG. I had an offer and was on standby, but never got the call to pretend to marry people who have already been married.

As for teaching being easy, only if you are a shit teacher and don't care whether your students learn anything or not. Teaching anything requires prolonged concentration - you can't take a 15 second break when you are tired, you have to keep going no matter what (unless you don't care about the work you do, of course).

[Alcazar]

DJEB,

How did you go about finding your potential priest job? Did you go to them, or did you know someone who introduced you?

'Shigeo Morita established his company Christ Corp. 13 years ago'.
http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/article.2189.html



And in regard to teaching English, I would care about my students learning properly or not, so it looks like it will be quite demanding like you said.


Alcazar

[GargoyleTS]

Alcazar, I got no clue. I am still America-locked and training for the Engrish Olympics. I plan on hitting J-land summer '04 though to make sure its what I want and that I can handle it. I got friends who claim to have seen the elusive PVM's, and said they would send me pics, but no pics yet. If anyone else can enlighten us, I would appreciate it. Its not that I doubt their existence, its just that visual verification would help get over the obsession. Like not being able to see the accident 3 lanes over as you drive by will have you wondering about what happened all day....

[DJEB]

DJEB,

How did you go about finding your potential priest job? Did you go to them, or did you know someone who introduced you?

'Shigeo Morita established his company Christ Corp. 13 years ago'.
http://www.thingsasian.com/goto_article/article.2189.html



And in regard to teaching English, I would care about my students learning properly or not, so it looks like it will be quite demanding like you said.


Alcazar

Sorry. Been busy...
The fake priest job was offered through a friend, but it was about 5~6 years ago, so I don't remember the details. I've got that priest look about me, or so I've been told.

[Alcazar]

DJEB,

Do you think that gaijin would be in greater demand for wedding industry work outside of Tokyo, say in a major city like Osaka?

I know the bulk of the weddings happen in Tokyo, but Tokyo also has the majority of Japan's gaijin, so a gaijin in Osaka should be in greater demand for priest work. What do you think?



Alcazar

[DJEB]

DJEB,

Do you think that gaijin would be in greater demand for wedding industry work outside of Tokyo, say in a major city like Osaka?

Sorry, wish I could help, but I have no idea. It's like you say, more people web in Tokyo because Tokyo has more people - but it also has more foreigners...