Fucked by Japanese landlords-your story wanted

[Cyka UchuuJin]

[Mike Oxlong]

I think it's relatively straightforward to file in small claims court. Anyone have any experience with that? Might be a 60-man limit IIRC.

[Doctor Stop]

It's not going to work in this case, but the easiest way out of this kind of problem is to give notice, not pay the last month or two of rent and negotiate afterward.

[Catoneinutica]

It's not going to work in this case, but the easiest way out of this kind of problem is to give notice, not pay the last month or two of rent and negotiate afterward.

Seconded! It's amazing how true the old saw remains about possession being nine-tenths of the law. When you've got the cash, you've got the whip hand (especially if you're a dominatrix).

[Samurai_Jerk]

It's not going to work in this case, but the easiest way out of this kind of problem is to give notice, not pay the last month or two of rent and negotiate afterward.

Yeah, that's definitely what I'm going to do from now on after the experience I had with the place I just moved out of. We weren't even having an fight over who owed what. Basically I had to give two months notice and pay a penalty for breaking my lease which I knew about and had no problem with since I agreed to the terms before I moved in.

The point was that I wanted them to take the penalty out of the deposit and they wanted me to pay everything (including my final couple of months' rent) up front before giving me my deposit back. On top of thay they also wanted me to pay a full months rent for the last month even though I would only be in the place for six days which would have meant a total of three months' rent up front. They said they would calculate what I owed for six days after that and return whatever I had over paid. I didn't want to pay so much upfront and there was nothing in my lease about timing for when I should pay the penatly and final two months rent or about paying for a full month and getting a refund on what I over paid.

I never made the threat not to pay but in the end I got them to do it my way which was probably because they knew that I could just walk away and pay nothing which would have left them in the hole for a couple of months' rent and a cleaning fee. What's left of my deposit is due on the 15th and since I have all of the paper work from them saying I'll get it on that date I'm pretty sure I will get it.

I do think that one of the reasons it worked out for me is that I rented from Tosei Community and not an individual landlord. I think the people in the jimusho were just trying to cover their own asses and get everything up front so I wouldn't do a runner and owe them anything. Even so I didn't like the idea paying them so much money to move out and running the risk of them finding some reason not to return my deposit by charging an unreasonable cleaning fee or something no matter how unlikely. The cleaning fee was bad enough anyway. They acknowledged there was no damage and still charge me over 40,000 yen for normal cleaning. It was a pretty good sized "designer mansion" in Chiyoda-ku though so I did expect to pay a premium.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

[Samurai_Jerk]

argh, really makes me NOT want to go to tokyo next month, even if it is only for a week. grrrr!

SJ...sorry to hear you've joined the fucked tenants club. i'd be happy to buy you a welcome drink.

Let me know when you're in Tokyo and I might take you up on that offer.

[Mulboyne]

do you happen to know where these laws can be found online in japanese? i'd like to send him a copy of them.

The links to the Supreme Court judgement establishing those points are at the front of this thread. However, your landlord will know the law so sending him links or copies of the statutes won't achieve anything unless you have a strategy. He has your money and doesn't want to give it to you. Showing him he is wrong isn't going to bring on a fit of remorse which will make him capitulate so you need to consider how you will go about getting it back. As others have said already, you need to forget the idea of relying on your "agent" to obtain redress because they really don't have your interests at heart.

GG had a strategy when she talks about using a tag team of negotiators to browbeat everyone. Go to the consultation offices at the local council or get a lawyer and see what they recommend. As you can see from GG's case, even if you do show the landlord that you mean business, he won't necessarily roll over. GG's landlord only offered to talk the day before a legal hearing was to be held and she rightly rejected that as too little too late. Your guy might be the same. Also note that she had a great case and got a good result but it was still a little short of what she might have wanted. You may find the same holds for you.

It sounds a little like you aren't completely convinced that you have a watertight case. I suggest you satisfy yourself on that score and then make a decision about whether you want to proceed or else write the whole thing off as a bad job. Most foreigners rent in Japan so we have a vested interested in you taking this landlord to task. It would be great for everyone if landlords like this were called to account more frequently and you might want to do so on principle. However, if you decide instead that it will take you too much time and effort to do so (many landlords probably rely on this) then no-one will blame you for walking away.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

The links to the Supreme Court judgement establishing those points are at the front of this thread. However, your landlord will know the law so sending him links or copies of the statutes won't achieve anything unless you have a strategy. He has your money and doesn't want to give it to you. Showing him he is wrong isn't going to bring on a fit of remorse which will make him capitulate so you need to consider how you will go about getting it back. As others have said already, you need to forget the idea of relying on your "agent" to obtain redress because they really don't have your interests at heart.

GG had a strategy when she talks about using a tag team of negotiators to browbeat everyone. Go to the consultation offices at the local council or get a lawyer and see what they recommend. As you can see from GG's case, even if you do show the landlord that you mean business, he won't necessarily roll over. GG's landlord only offered to talk the day before a legal hearing was to be held and she rightly rejected that as too little too late. Your guy might be the same. Also note that she had a great case and got a good result but it was still a little short of what she might have wanted. You may find the same holds for you.

It sounds a little like you aren't completely convinced that you have a watertight case. I suggest you satisfy yourself on that score and then make a decision about whether you want to proceed or else write the whole thing off as a bad job. Most foreigners rent in Japan so we have a vested interested in you taking this landlord to task. It would be great for everyone if landlords like this were called to account more frequently and you might want to do so on principle. However, if you decide instead that it will take you too much time and effort to do so (many landlords probably rely on this) then no-one will blame you for walking away.

the problem here is that i AM convinced it's a watertight case, but my former business partner, who's name the apartment was in, is not wanting to help. i KNOW that the case is watertight...he waited too long to send the estimate, came up with 'damages' found after the walk through, has no basis or evidence of 'foreigner caused damage'. simple fact...the guy is a greedy bastard who just thinks we'll give up and walk away simply because noriko is a woman. i AM at the point of doing this on principle, and have written noriko this morning telling her to find a lawyer, send the owner a copy of the law (i'm not so sure he does actually know the law, because if he did, then he'd point out actual laws rather than come up with these wishy-washy 'you had a foreigner there, i didn't want a foreigner there', which he knows doesn't hold much water since if he was so unhappy, he easily could have cancelled the lease or chose not to renew it twice after the initial one expired), tell him we're taking him to court, and that we've made several newspapers aware of it. at this point, it's on principle, because i'm pissed off, plain and simple. and there's nothing a russian likes better than revenge being served up cold. if nothing else, i'll spend the money to draw this out in court for ages simply so that he can't get the apartment sold while it's tied up in legal issues.

and no, the agency (apaman shop) is not on my side, i know that. which means i'm going to throw a little email their way saying that we'll be naming them in the lawsuit as well, since they assured us, in writing, that we'd be receiving our deposit back.

[Samurai_Jerk]

the problem here is that i AM convinced it's a watertight case, but my former business partner, who's name the apartment was in, is not wanting to help. i KNOW that the case is watertight...he waited too long to send the estimate, came up with 'damages' found after the walk through, has no basis or evidence of 'foreigner caused damage'. simple fact...the guy is a greedy bastard who just thinks we'll give up and walk away simply because noriko is a woman. i AM at the point of doing this on principle, and have written noriko this morning telling her to find a lawyer, send the owner a copy of the law (i'm not so sure he does actually know the law, because if he did, then he'd point out actual laws rather than come up with these wishy-washy 'you had a foreigner there, i didn't want a foreigner there', which he knows doesn't hold much water since if he was so unhappy, he easily could have cancelled the lease or chose not to renew it twice after the initial one expired), tell him we're taking him to court, and that we've made several newspapers aware of it. at this point, it's on principle, because i'm pissed off, plain and simple. and there's nothing a russian likes better than revenge being served up cold. if nothing else, i'll spend the money to draw this out in court for ages simply so that he can't get the apartment sold while it's tied up in legal issues.

and no, the agency (apaman shop) is not on my side, i know that. which means i'm going to throw a little email their way saying that we'll be naming them in the lawsuit as well, since they assured us, in writing, that we'd be receiving our deposit back.

If your business partner isn't willing to help and it's all in her name, how much of a case do you have?

[Cyka UchuuJin]

If your business partner isn't willing to help and it's all in her name, how much of a case do you have?

not much. on the surface. but i also have a way to make sure see that she really does need to help out on this. ie...a tip to the tax department that she wasn't paying taxes on the 150.000 per month she received for 3 years while working for us.

oh and tokyo is supposed to be happening at the end of next month if you want to take me up on that beer.

[Samurai_Jerk]

not much. on the surface. but i also have a way to make sure see that she really does need to help out on this. ie...a tip to the tax department that she wasn't paying taxes on the 150.000 per month she received for 3 years while working for us.:

Nice. It'll suck if you have to resort to that though.

oh and tokyo is supposed to be happening at the end of next month if you want to take me up on that beer.

Drop me a PM when you know for sure.

[Iraira]

Not sure how illegal this would be, but what about recording your conversations with the landlord (a nice little IC recorder that fits in your pocket is availible at Bic Camera for less than 10,000 yen). If you could catch him/her saying things such as, "I'm the greedy landlord and I stick the tenants in the rear when they move out!" all you'd need to do then, is burn that to a CD-R and distribute copies of the conversation in all the other tenants mailboxes, as a bon voyage present.
Letting the landlord know that you recorded the conversation, several days later, might be enough to "convince" him/her to pay up.
"Wow, officer, I didn't even realize that I had the IC recorder on and in my pocket at the time..tee hee.."

[Saru Paradise]

the problem here is that i AM convinced it's a watertight case, but my former business partner, who's name the apartment was in, is not wanting to help. i KNOW that the case is watertight...he waited too long to send the estimate, came up with 'damages' found after the walk through, has no basis or evidence of 'foreigner caused damage'. simple fact...the guy is a greedy bastard who just thinks we'll give up and walk away simply because noriko is a woman. i AM at the point of doing this on principle, and have written noriko this morning telling her to find a lawyer, send the owner a copy of the law (i'm not so sure he does actually know the law, because if he did, then he'd point out actual laws rather than come up with these wishy-washy 'you had a foreigner there, i didn't want a foreigner there', which he knows doesn't hold much water since if he was so unhappy, he easily could have cancelled the lease or chose not to renew it twice after the initial one expired), tell him we're taking him to court, and that we've made several newspapers aware of it. at this point, it's on principle, because i'm pissed off, plain and simple. and there's nothing a russian likes better than revenge being served up cold. if nothing else, i'll spend the money to draw this out in court for ages simply so that he can't get the apartment sold while it's tied up in legal issues.

and no, the agency (apaman shop) is not on my side, i know that. which means i'm going to throw a little email their way saying that we'll be naming them in the lawsuit as well, since they assured us, in writing, that we'd be receiving our deposit back.

If you want the money, and your business partner doesn't care because it's not their money, then take THEM to small-claims court (or threaten to do so) if they don't file the paperwork. Alternatively, do all the legwork on taking the landlord to court, and just bring it to them to sign/hanko.

You say you're not hemming and hawing, but here you are making excuse after excuse. TAKE ACTION or the money will disappear, and telling us how your former business partner won't help isn't taking action.

[kusai Jijii]

...a tip to the tax department that she wasn't paying taxes on the 150.000 per month she received for 3 years while working for us.

Please tell me that wasnt full time...

[Greji]

not much. on the surface. but i also have a way to make sure see that she really does need to help out on this. ie...a tip to the tax department that she wasn't paying taxes on the 150.000 per month she received for 3 years while working for us.

oh and tokyo is supposed to be happening at the end of next month if you want to take me up on that beer.

Sock it to her. If you dance, you pay the fiddler.

Let me know on Tokyo

[CrankyBastard]

Cyka, you strike me as an astute business woman.
Have you ever played poker? Because most punters have been in this predicament;
the pot's not big enough to call on but it's too small to ignore.
Neither punter wants to quit. But to take the initiative and raise requires a commitment to stick it out, with the possibility (it's always there) of loosing.

It's not a game of win or lose. The thing is to know if staying in and forcing the hand is worth the effort considering the size of the pot.
And more importantly, will you be playing this table again?

Hope it works out for you.

[Number11]

I'm not trying to be a smart ass, but the tax on 5,000,000 yen over 3 years is not enough to get a bureaucrat interested in your (former?) partner. The tax on that is not worth the effort and they are after people and companies who have assets and large tax obligations.

I do wish you well in this and can appreciate how frustrating it is to get screwed over like this, but I have a difficult time seeing how you're going to overcome the fact that everything is in Noriko's name.

[Iraira]

I have a difficult time seeing how you're going to overcome the fact that everything is in Noriko's name.

Decent point. If Noriko was the legal entity renting the place and Cyka was merely signed on as living there, then the landlord is well within his right to ignore Cyka. She can also ignore him if he claims that the "gaijin-related damages" require more money than even the deposit covers.
I was on a lease as "residing in the manshon" several years ago, which gave me no rights to the place, when the leasee (or is it leasor?) decided it was time to cast me out of her life. I checked with lawyers on this (from my company) and according to them, only the fool...er...person who signs the lease agreement as the leasee really has any rights. Cyka's old landlord probably doesn't even know this, or else he would've dropped it on her already.
Unless there is documentation that Cyka paid money, she's gonna have a tough time getting dickweed to pay up unless Noriko is compelled to fight alongside her. For that, I suggest threatening to send pictures of her sucking off that rhinoceros to her work.

[Greji]

she's gonna have a tough time getting dickweed to pay up unless Noriko is compelled to fight alongside her. For that, I suggest threatening to send pictures of her sucking off that rhinoceros to her work.

If Noriko can swallow a rhino, send her around to see me. I'll pay the rent....

[Iraira]

If Noriko can swallow a rhino, send her around to see me

Why, is there a toothpick shortage in Japan?:p

[GomiGirl]

This is really getting out of hand in Japan. I guess as there is little regulation (and less enforcement) over individual real estate agents and owners.

Most of the small claims court stuff is people taking their former landlords to task over this age old practice of landlords keeping deposit. Most Japanese to date have the "shoganai" attitude and write it off as another moving expense rather than seeing it as their money that is being stolen.

Australia has a the real estate association that reguates all of this and is controled on a state by state basis. There is a standard contract that all landlords/tennants use. The deposit is held in escrow and not at the discretion of the owner.

The managers are really the real estate agents who for their trouble of managing the properties, get a small percentage of the monthly rent rather than a lump sum payment at contract time.

Not to suggest that the Australian system is perfect but it is certainly more transparent than the system here.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

Please tell me that wasnt full time...

nope. that was for about 6 hours of her time per month.

thanks all for your comments and suggestions, again. i'm actually going to turn this all over to the lawyer who drew up all of our partnership agreements and everything else and let him decide what is the best course of action against the landlord, noriko, and everything in general.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

This is really getting out of hand in Japan. I guess as there is little regulation (and less enforcement) over individual real estate agents and owners.

Most of the small claims court stuff is people taking their former landlords to task over this age old practice of landlords keeping deposit. Most Japanese to date have the "shoganai" attitude and write it off as another moving expense rather than seeing it as their money that is being stolen.

Australia has a the real estate association that reguates all of this and is controled on a state by state basis. There is a standard contract that all landlords/tennants use. The deposit is held in escrow and not at the discretion of the owner.

The managers are really the real estate agents who for their trouble of managing the properties, get a small percentage of the monthly rent rather than a lump sum payment at contract time.

Not to suggest that the Australian system is perfect but it is certainly more transparent than the system here.

yep. i was talking to a british friend of mine about this the other day and he said 'but no one in the uk ever expects to get the deposit back' and i said 'yeah, but in the uk, you also don't pay 3000 quid in 'key money' that you pay just for the priveledge of renting the place'. he was dead silent.

nothing in japan is very transparent though, is it?

[Mike Oxlong]

I remember paying first and last month's rent in Canada (last month's rent was considered the deposit) , and getting the full amount back, plus interest, when moving out (assuming no damage and a decent cleaning job before leaving).

[Cyka UchuuJin]

I remember paying first and last month's rent in Canada (last month's rent was considered the deposit) , and getting the full amount back, plus interest, when moving out (assuming no damage and a decent cleaning job before leaving).

EEEEEEEEEEIIIIIIHHHHHHHHHH?

of course canada is the west, and therefore doesn't know how to do business or run a government, so of course they would resort to such illogical business practises.

[Mulboyne]

...i was talking to a british friend of mine about this the other day and he said 'but no one in the uk ever expects to get the deposit back'...

Maybe he hoped to make you feel better but that has never been true in Britain.

[OKLAHOMA]

Shikin is kept by landlords 99% of the time and I support Japanese landlords 100%.

GAIJIN WESTERNERS have an unmerited sense of entitlement due to inherent racism.

Shut up and stop complaining!

[Mike Oxlong]

Everyone knows the shikikin/reikin deal is a post-war system that got out of hand and developed into full-blown greed. IIUC, it was originally basically a bribe due to housing shortages in the early post-war years. Give more to the slumlord than your competition, and you get first dibs on the tin shack available. Now with the glut of rabbit hutches, it really makes little sense, but it is a Japanese "tradition".

[Midwinter]

Shikin is kept by landlords 99% of the time and I support Japanese landlords 100%.

GAIJIN WESTERNERS have an unmerited sense of entitlement due to inherent racism.

Shut up and stop complaining!

Your big contribution to this thread is complaining about the complaining? Well done sir, you've won.