idiot debito mentioned in TIME magazine

[Yokohammer]

Cyka makes some good points, and I basically agree with her analysis, but causing any Japanese individual or group to "lose face" will not actually win any battles, but only sow the seeds of hate and possibly revenge. "Turn the other cheek" is a Christian/Western concept that the Japanese generally do not share. On the contrary, there is a Japanese saying that effectively means "if humiliated, return the humiliation a hundredfold."

Unfortunately, the way I see it, that's how Debito operates. He attempts to cow people into submission by publicly shaming them which, as a lone foreign crusader in Japan, is eventually going to come back and bite him in the ass. People won't forget (they haven't forgotten the war, either), and as soon as someone who has been "put in their place" by the almighty Debito or someone who is sympathetic to their situation (i.e. most Japanese) has the opportunity, he'll find himself in deep poo.

Debito fights some of the right causes, which naturally elicits a sympathetic response from many FGs, but goes about it in a counterproductive way that indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the Japanese psyche. I think that's what leads to the confusion and polarization.

My bet is that it's only a matter of time before Debito finds himself on the other end of the stick.

[kusai Jijii]

Tsk. Regardless, I've been here for five years. Compared to you, I have been here "forever".

You are a fucking idiot. Keep posting. We havent had someone like you here since Minihux.

[wuchan]

is it me or does davey only go after problems involving white gaijin?

[Cyka UchuuJin]

Hmmm, drunken Russian sailors causing trouble?

Now here's a guy who is trying to protect you and your shipmates and you diss him...
What was your home port anyway?

moscow.

but i will fully admit that russian sailors even when not drunk can be major nuisances. we have a holiday in russia that marks the birth of the russian navy and even the news stations post announcements to be wary of the large amount of drunken sailors inhabiting the parks and other public places.

[Behan]

[YT]qGyPuey-1Jw[/YT]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGyPuey-1Jw

[IkemenTommy]

his personal Wiki

According to his wiki page, he is a fellow alumni from my school...

not cool.

[okazakiOm]

:rofl:
You are a fucking idiot. Keep posting. We havent had someone like you here since Minihux.

Tsk, manners. As you wish, n00b.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

Tsk, manners. As you wish, n00b.

ahahahahaha.

you didn't seriously just call KJ a n00b.

wait, isn't n00b a favourite word of good ole chuckles? has he reincarnated himself in the form of this loser?

[Cyka UchuuJin]

Cyka makes some good points, and I basically agree with her analysis, but causing any Japanese individual or group to "lose face" will not actually win any battles, but only sow the seeds of hate and possibly revenge. "Turn the other cheek" is a Christian/Western concept that the Japanese generally do not share. On the contrary, there is a Japanese saying that effectively means "if humiliated, return the humiliation a hundredfold."

Unfortunately, the way I see it, that's how Debito operates. He attempts to cow people into submission by publicly shaming them which, as a lone foreign crusader in Japan, is eventually going to come back and bite him in the ass. People won't forget (they haven't forgotten the war, either), and as soon as someone who has been "put in their place" by the almighty Debito or someone who is sympathetic to their situation (i.e. most Japanese) has the opportunity, he'll find himself in deep poo.

Debito fights some of the right causes, which naturally elicits a sympathetic response from many FGs, but goes about it in a counterproductive way that indicates a fundamental lack of understanding of the Japanese psyche. I think that's what leads to the confusion and polarization.

My bet is that it's only a matter of time before Debito finds himself on the other end of the stick.

sorry hammerman, didn't see this one.

what i meant by saying to go for the kill by using the losing face tactic is not necessarily that it's the tactic that should be used, but rather, as you've pointed out, debito goes for that soapboxing kamikaze ranting, and if HE actually wanted to get himself really noticed, he'd do that. of course it would come back on him tenfold, but he's not exactly a master of tact, is he?

i think your prediction of him on the other end of the stick is pretty damn accurate. just a matter of time.

[Greji]

According to his wiki page, he is a fellow alumni from my school...

not cool.

Birds of a feather.....

[Greji]

[Adhesive]

Seems like an awful lot of you are under the impression that Debito occasionally fights for the right cause, but always goes about it in the wrong way. Just out of curiosity, what is the right way to go about effectuating change in Japan? Seems like nearly all change in Japan has come about through some sort of strong-arm tactic...black ships, atomic-bombs...Godzilla...

[omae mona]

Just out of curiosity, what is the right way to go about effectuating change in Japan?

As others have pointed out, the only right way to go about effectuating change in Japan is to bitch about what is bothering you on foreigner-oriented internet forums!

Now, of course, that doesn't completely solve the problem of causing Japanese people to lose face. But Takechanpoo only leaves his room once every few weeks when he runs out of instant ramen, so there is not much of an effect on actual society.

[Adhesive]

[gomichild]

Seems like an awful lot of you are under the impression that Debito occasionally fights for the right cause, but always goes about it in the wrong way. Just out of curiosity, what is the right way to go about effectuating change in Japan? Seems like nearly all change in Japan has come about through some sort of strong-arm tactic...black ships, atomic-bombs...Godzilla...

What Cyka UchuuJin said is how you effect change here. You do it on a one-to-one basis.

In about 1,400 years we should have equality!

But seriously - making a difference at an individual level is the key. The waves off that one action are more effective that standing up and yelling that something isn't right. Conversely of course when something negative happens the waves go the other way.

[Mulboyne]

[AssKissinger]

(1) Suffrage for permanent residents

I'm against it. Why should they let foreign people choose their leaders?

(2) Ministry of Education funding for & recognition of foreign schools

I'm against it. They need only take responsibilty for educating their own.

(3) An anti-discrimination bill

Totally against it. Let the individual decide.

(4) The end of gaijin cards

Why shouldn't they keep track of their foreign residents?

(5) Foreign kids to be eligible for high school sports at a national level

Not unless they become Japanese citizens.

(6) An end to police demonisation of foreign crime on posters & in the media

No opinion.

(7) Enforcement of hotel laws so that anyone turning away a foreign visitor loses their licence

Totally against it. Why shouldn't the person or people who own a building be able to decide who can enter it?


(8 ) Removal of all "no foreigners" signs from shops & businesses

Booooo. Shops and businesses should be able to turn away anyone they want.

(9) Japan to be a signatory to the Hague treaty.

Is that so these stupid deadbeat dads can take their kids to even shittier countries?

(10) The introduction of dual nationality

I agree with that one.

[Iraira]

(8 ) Removal of all "no foreigners" signs from shops & businesses

Booooo. Shops and businesses should be able to turn away anyone they want.

I really don't care about much in life and I understand the concept that Japan makes its rules and I have to deal with that or leave.
That being said, if a "No foreigners allowed" sign went up in the kuro goma ramen restaurant in my neighborhood, I'd go ballistic and millions would die.
Don't even believe for a second that I'm joking.

[FG Lurker]

For instance, off the top of my head, here's a list of issues he could be in favour of:

I realize that you weren't putting these up as a list of items that match your opinions or thoughts but I think they make an interesting list for conversation.

(1) Suffrage for permanent residents

IMO only Japanese nationals should be able to vote. I think this is tied in with #10 though, Japan should allow dual nationality and then this would be a lot less of an issue. I would certainly apply for Japanese nationality if I could (legally) keep my Canadian passport as well.


(2) Ministry of Education funding for & recognition of foreign schools

I agree with this one. If Japan is going to invite large numbers of temporary workers here to support manufacturing and other "three K" jobs then they should provide proper support for people who take them up on the invitation.


(3) An anti-discrimination bill

With a few exceptions I haven't found discrimination to be a big problem in Japan. It wouldn't be a bad thing to enshrine this in law though.


(4) The end of gaijin cards

I don't see any point to this. Government issued ID is necessary for daily life (bank accounts, keitais, etc). Driver's Licenses are exceedingly difficult to get for many nationalities and really not necessary for daily life for many foreigners. Ending gaijin cards would remove easily access to available government issued ID for most foreigners in Japan. (The health insurance card doesn't really help as it has no photo and no address.) I realize many would like to see the gaijin card gone but I think this is a clear case of, "Be careful what you wish for..."


(5) Foreign kids to be eligible for high school sports at a national level

This is a tricky situation. Let's take something like baseball. If the team that win's the Japan Little League Championship has a Brazilian national as their star pitcher, will this pitcher be allowed to play for the Japanese team in the world little league finals? Quite possibly not. Allowing dual nationality would probably be a better fix for this situation.


(6) An end to police demonisation of foreign crime on posters & in the media

Good idea.


(7) Enforcement of hotel laws so that anyone turning away a foreign visitor loses their licence

Establishments should be free to turn away troublemakers or those who they feel can't or won't pay. Turning away someone just from their foreign appearance would fall under the anti discrimination law but would be just about impossible to prove in many situations.


(8 ) Removal of all "no foreigners" signs from shops & businesses

Good idea.


(9) Japan to be a signatory to the Hague treaty.

Good idea but I suspect it will never be properly enforced here.


(10) The introduction of dual nationality

YES! I would definitely love to see this happen.

[TennoChinko]

One problem that I have - and is probably shared by a lot of Japanese voters - is that when we indicate "foreign schools" and "high school sports" unless you specify otherwise, the majority of potential beneficiaries aren't international schools like ASIJ, Nishimachi, St. Mary's, or the Canadian Academy in Kobe.

Rather we are talking about the many schools sponsored by Chosen Soren (Chongryon) with teachers and students officially pledging allegiance to the dead Kim Il Sung and Kim Jong Il.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

(1) Suffrage for permanent residents

I'm against it. Why should they let foreign people choose their leaders?

(2) Ministry of Education funding for & recognition of foreign schools

I'm against it. They need only take responsibilty for educating their own.

(3) An anti-discrimination bill

Totally against it. Let the individual decide.

(4) The end of gaijin cards

Why shouldn't they keep track of their foreign residents?

(5) Foreign kids to be eligible for high school sports at a national level

Not unless they become Japanese citizens.

(6) An end to police demonisation of foreign crime on posters & in the media

No opinion.

(7) Enforcement of hotel laws so that anyone turning away a foreign visitor loses their licence

Totally against it. Why shouldn't the person or people who own a building be able to decide who can enter it?


(8 ) Removal of all "no foreigners" signs from shops & businesses

Booooo. Shops and businesses should be able to turn away anyone they want.

(9) Japan to be a signatory to the Hague treaty.

Is that so these stupid deadbeat dads can take their kids to even shittier countries?

(10) The introduction of dual nationality

I agree with that one.

i'm with AK on all accounts here. go to a nightclub in any major city and they've all got a 'management reserves the right to refuse entry to anyone'. other places have 'face control' policies that are based solely on the size of a girl's bra and how much money it looks like her date has.

back in moscow, we have 'locals only' saunas, and i've often preferred to go there and hang out with my own kind. when i go somewhere at home and a loud, obnoxious tourist walks in, it totally kills my mood. it's not going to kill you if you're not allowed to go into everywhere and everything in japan (or anywhere else).

and if you don't like that people have the right to serve/admit those they want (or turn away the ones they don't want) in their own establishment, then why would you want to go there anyway? so that you have the satisfaction of being admitted into somewhere that doesn't want you and try to enjoy yourself while they're giving you dirty looks and spitting in your soup?

[Ketou]

i'm with AK on all accounts here. go to a nightclub in any major city and they've all got a 'management reserves the right to refuse entry to anyone'. other places have 'face control' policies that are based solely on the size of a girl's bra and how much money it looks like her date has.

back in moscow, we have 'locals only' saunas, and i've often preferred to go there and hang out with my own kind. when i go somewhere at home and a loud, obnoxious tourist walks in, it totally kills my mood. it's not going to kill you if you're not allowed to go into everywhere and everything in japan (or anywhere else).

and if you don't like that people have the right to serve/admit those they want (or turn away the ones they don't want) in their own establishment, then why would you want to go there anyway? so that you have the satisfaction of being admitted into somewhere that doesn't want you and try to enjoy yourself while they're giving you dirty looks and spitting in your soup?

Just because someone reserves the right to refuse entry doesn't mean they have the right to. Turning away someone because there are drunk or not attired correctly is different to doing the same because of the colour of their skin or origin of birth.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

I really don't care about much in life and I understand the concept that Japan makes its rules and I have to deal with that or leave.
That being said, if a "No foreigners allowed" sign went up in the kuro goma ramen restaurant in my neighborhood, I'd go ballistic and millions would die.
Don't even believe for a second that I'm joking.

that'll never happen. you probably make up for 80% of their revenue!

[Cyka UchuuJin]

Just because someone reserves the right to refuse entry doesn't mean they have the right to. Turning away someone because there are drunk or not attired correctly is different to doing the same because of the colour of their skin or origin of birth.

says who? as far as i'm aware, they've yet to appoint a 'ruler of the entire world and everyone in it' title to anyone.

just because you want to live in a united colours of benetton advert does not mean that japan as a culture/country wants to, or even has to. those japanese that want to live in that kind of little rainbow world either go marry gaijin, move to another country, or make it their mission in life to ride as much coloured cock or pink pussy as possible. and that is their right. the millions of people in japan who don't like gaijin are not going to change because of debito, or you, or anyone else. and why should anyone force them to? you're not the boss of them. and furthermore, you knew what japanese were like within a month of moving there, so if you don't like it...leave.

seriously, who are they REALLY hurting by being xenophobic and racist? themselves? then that's their problem. until they start genocide or systematically killing or exiling all non-shinto, or imposing that all hafus have to live on an island by themselves, or threatening to drop bombs on other countries, then leave them the fuck alone. they have the right to do anything they damn well please in their own country!

ETA: you know what really pisses me off about people? they bitch and moan about how the japanese should be tolerant of gaijin and their ways, yet when is the last time you were tolerant of them?

[omae mona]

It may make some shopkeepers and their customers feel better to discriminate based on race. And they may even feel it is more profitable in the end, if that's their motivation. But when enough of this happens systematically, it hurts the interests of the country as a whole. That's one of the reasons governments get involved in making laws that regulate individual behavior.

When and if Japan makes steps forward to improve life for foreigners, it will not be because they love the foreigners. It will be primarily because of its impact on the economy, as well as other factors like domestic crime and international relations. I expect the pace of change to pick up over the next few years.

[james]

it's not going to kill you if you're not allowed to go into everywhere and everything in japan (or anywhere else).

slippery slope. define 'local' vs. 'tourist'. as far as i'm concerned, i stopped being a 'tourist' when i started paying taxes. telling a tax paying resident that they aren't allowed in a place simply because is not acceptable.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

slippery slope. define 'local' vs. 'tourist'. as far as i'm concerned, i stopped being a 'tourist' when i started paying taxes. telling a tax paying resident that they aren't allowed in a place simply because is not acceptable.

having a work/residence/spouse permit means you are obligated to pay ward taxes and whatever else, they're not going to let you go have a job and earn money without being part of the taxation system. what you pay in taxes goes towards collecting the rubbish that you dispose of, making the trains that you ride to work to earn your salary run properly, pays for the upkeep of the parks that you enjoy on weekends. paying taxes does not make you automatically have any more rights than before, it just means that you are financially contributing to the system in which you're earning a living.

and you knew that you'd still be considered a 'gaijin', even after you started to pay taxes anyway. again, you make a choice to live within that country. and if the private owner of a private enterprise (in other words, one in which you do not pay taxes so he can operate it) doesn't want you in there, then that is his right.

[FG Lurker]

I think that business owners should have the right to refuse to serve any individual they do not wish to serve.

I do not believe that business owners should have the right to preemptively ban large groups of people en masse.

I don't ask for or expect special treatment. I do ask for and expect that each person be judged on his or her own merits.

[Kuang_Grade]

I think some of you are using too broad a brush...The hotel issue harks back to a basic human need of shelter and while this wouldn't be a critical issue in most big cities, it could be quite criticial in small towns where there might only be one or two hotels in a given area. And while some gaijin could cause trouble, so could any J person and to pre-emptively discrimnate on blanket policy is simply wrong. If individuals are drunk and disorderly, there laws and police to handle that and it is perfectly OK do bar ANYONE actively causing problems. Dealing with the public entails certain hassles and risks, which are just the cost of doing business with the public, J folks or gaijin alike, and if they are not willing to deal with those risks, then they shouldn't be in that business at all. There are certain types of businesses and services that are simply vital (hospitals, transportation (buses, trails, roads), and hotels come to mind) and should be required to allow access/use on a equal basis...that's not say that there can't be barriers of some sort to limit access but that such barriers need to be equally applied to everyone...

[nottu]