The LDP has LOST!

[FG Lurker]

[wuchan]

The highway should be free in most places. There should be tolls in places where there are large volumes of traffic like the 23 wards and large bridges.

[FG Lurker]

The highway should be free in most places. There should be tolls in places where there are large volumes of traffic like the 23 wards and large bridges.

What planet are you from?

Free? There is no such thing as free. Highways are insanely expensive to build and maintain. Either the users of the highway pay with tolls or EVERYONE pays through higher taxes.

No tolls means more highway use which in turn means more maintenance, further increasing costs. Since there are no tolls to offset those costs that means higher taxes yet again. Great idea!

[pheyton]

I can't wait until they get rid of the "1000yen weekends and holidays thing" and go back to normal tolls. What the hell is the point of having expressways if they move at 10km/hr!?

What? You mean all this time in California the freeways were supposed to move faster than 10kmph?

[wuchan]

:rofl: What planet are you from?

Free? There is no such thing as free. Highways are insanely expensive to build and maintain. Either the users of the highway pay with tolls or EVERYONE pays through higher taxes.

No tolls means more highway use which in turn means more maintenance, further increasing costs. Since there are no tolls to offset those costs that means higher taxes yet again. Great idea!

Maybe if the city hall didn't have 3,000,000 people sitting around doing nothing..................

[Ketou]

Maybe if the city hall didn't have 3,000,000 people sitting around doing nothing..................

What'd'ya mean? I always see them busy shuffling reams of paper from desk to desk.

[Behan]

What? You mean all this time in California the freeways were supposed to move faster than 10kmph?

With all the lanes they have on LA highways it's amazing they still get huge traffic jams.

[Ketou]

With all the lanes they have on LA highways it's amazing they still get huge traffic jams.

Jams are more a cause of the bottlenecks on and off the freeways.

[FG Lurker]

What? You mean all this time in California the freeways were supposed to move faster than 10kmph?

If they put tolls on those highways you can bet that a few things would result:

1) Lots of idiots rioting for the first while.

2) A lot more people would either car pool or use public transportation, leading to far fewer cars on the road.
2a) Better air quality in LA
2b) Much smoother commutes

3) Roads would improve as there would be income to take care of them.

4) California's budget situation would be at least a bit less horrific than it is now.

[FG Lurker]

Maybe if the city hall didn't have 3,000,000 people sitting around doing nothing..................

Ridiculous argument. The useless civil servants need to go and savings found everywhere possible but that money shouldn't then be wasted making something free (expressways) that should be mostly self-supporting.

With an aging population and a national debt rapidly approaching 200% of GDP Japan is already heading towards a 20% sales tax and much higher income/payroll taxes. How much worse do you want to make it?

[pheyton]

Ridiculous argument. The useless civil servants need to go and savings found everywhere possible but that money shouldn't then be wasted making something free (expressways) that should be mostly self-supporting.

With an aging population and a national debt rapidly approaching 200% of GDP Japan is already heading towards a 20% sales tax and much higher income/payroll taxes. How much worse do you want to make it?

Japan definitely needs to start raising taxes incrementally each year. A quarter point maybe, both on income and sales. That money should go straight to reigning in the national debt.

As for doing away with the tolls, well.... Doing away with them seems like a bad idea in Japan. Where will the highway revenue come from? As FG pointed out, Japan on the weekends already makes LA look like the fuckin autbahn. What will happen to all of the jobs created by the tolls? Japan has one of the best public transportation systems in the world, they should continue to develop it. I for one will trade in my car any day for a shinkansen where I can realax, crack a beer and read or something.

The DPJ made some stupid promises. Here's to hoping they don't go through with a lot of them cause I plan on moving back next year and would like to live happily ever after farming my uncle's vineyards.

[hundefar]

Where will the highway revenue come from?

Where will all the money that is needed to pay for DPJ's mad election promises come from?

[Greji]

Japan definitely needs to start raising taxes incrementally each year. A quarter point maybe, both on income and sales. That money should go straight to reigning in the national debt.

You sure like Taxes. Raise taxes in the states, raise taxes in Japan. I do not agree with any tax raise.and I pay enough now. I don't need more. You stimulate the economy by cutting taxes. Give the consumer his money back so he can use it, not taking it away from him..

[FG Lurker]

Where will all the money that is needed to pay for DPJ's mad election promises come from?

According to the DPJ the national debt isn't a problem as it is less than the general public's savings. They plan to pay for all their promises by saving money in as-yet undefined ways and by ramping up the national debt. I think they may have bought their economic advisors at a 100yen shop...

[FG Lurker]

Give the consumer his money back so he can use it, not taking it away from him..

This only has any hope of working if you can get the consumer to spend that money. These days people just stick it in the bank which stimulates nothing...

Japan needs to cut costs wherever they can and very likely also needs to raise taxes. Unfortunately the tax increases are a near certainly while the cost savings probably won't happen.

[FG Lurker]

Funding dogs DPJ expressway toll plan
The Yomiuri Shimbun, September 14, 2009

Securing new revenue sources to cover the 31 trillion yen in debts owed by expressway companies and road maintenance costs will be the biggest issue in the Democratic Party of Japan's plan to end expressway tolls.

[...]

Eliminating the tolls is expected to cause serious traffic jams, especially in large urban areas, including on the Metropolitan and Hanshin expressways. The plan likely will be initially implemented on lightly trafficked routes in rural areas.

Even so, securing revenue sources will remain the biggest problem.

[...]

Under the DPJ plan, the debts now shouldered by the agency would be transferred to the government, which would retire the debts in 60 years via annual payments of 1.3 trillion yen in principal and interest, respectively.

(Full Story)

Hey, what's another 31 trillion added to the national debt? It's already nearly 200% of GDP, let's ramp it up! Grrrrrrrrrreat.

[FG Lurker]

Bumpy road ahead for toll-free plan?
The Yomiuri Shimbun, September 14, 2009

The Democratic Party of Japan's main preelection pledge to make expressways toll-free is attracting considerable attention ahead of the launch of the new DPJ-led administration.

Though the party insists the measure will revitalize regional economies by lowering distribution costs, train and bus service companies are opposing the move, saying their ridership will sharply decrease.

[...]

"Many bus passengers are elderly or in a weak position in terms of road use," Takeshima said. "If more bus routes disappear, regional communities will be damaged. The DPJ doesn't understand the effect [this would have]."

[...]

Also in the region, the up-to 1,000 yen expressway toll prices caused ferry companies' transport volume to fall by 10 percent to 30 percent, especially at companies with routes that rival the road routes that run via the three bridges that connect Honshu and Shikoku.

As a result, three ferry companies in the Chugoku region were forced to suspend their businesses.

[...]

The DPJ has said the purpose of making expressways toll-free is to lower distribution costs and prices of goods, while revitalizing local communities and regional economies.

But some business owners say if expressways start being used every day, traffic among local communities will increase, truck delivery costs will fall, and it will be easier for local products to get to larger consumption areas.

A marine products wholesalers' association in Tokyo said, "More and more fish will be brought to Tokyo markets from distant parts of the nation."

[...]

According to the government's household census, each household spent an average of 8,923 yen on toll roads in 2008.

The DPJ estimates it would take 1.3 trillion yen [PER YEAR!] to make all expressways toll-free. This is equivalent to a more than 10,000 yen [PER YEAR!] per capita burden on taxpayers.

(Full Story)

Great, free expressways! It just costs every single citizen 1man/year in taxes and destroys a few public transportation industries. Sounds like a typically wonderful government plan to me.

[canman]

I think one of the reasons that the DPJ wants to get rid of the Toll system is that they feel the whole Japan highway system was a form of amakudari that the LDP used for years to reward themselves with cushy high paying jobs. The belief being remove the tolls and yes these jobs go away, but so does the exorbitant amount of waste needed to pay these old farts.
At least that is the reason my recently re-elected DPJ official explained to me, while we were having dinner on Sunday. I said keep the tolls at Y1000 , but she said the DPJ made a promise and they are going to stick to it.

[canman]

But Lurker I think a lot of this is Chicken Little. They haven't even taken power yet and already people are saying we are at the "End of Days". Me thinks the LPD and the mass media are having a little fun at the DPJ's expense.
And as we see what is going in the US, fear sells. Make people afraid and they will vote or disagree with whatever you are saying, even if it is good for you. Like health care.

[FG Lurker]

But Lurker I think a lot of this is Chicken Little.

I have two problems with removing tolls:

1) Having seen the effect of the 1000yen tolls already I don't wish to see it get worse. It makes the expressways useless at the peak times they are really needed and encourages people to take cars when they should be using trains or buses. (I'm lucky enough to be able to take a day off here or there whenever I wish so I will be leaving a day early for "silver week" to avoid the massive jams and can time my return to do likewise. I pity the poor saps who can't do this.)

2) The whole basis of the expressways was that they would pay for themselves with tolls. There is still 31 trillion yen of debt from their construction. That debt was to be paid for with tolls, not from general revenue. There is no hyperbole or fear-mongering involved in this, the debt is public record and the costs are easy to calculate.

[canman]

You are right that there is huge debt, but where did it come from. Once the bureaucracy was in place, they had to continue to build roads that weren't wanted or needed.
So in effect it was the damn Japan highway corp. that got us into the mess. The initial plan was to build a highway connecting the country. Once that was done, and the roads were paid off, they would become free. Well fat chance of that happening. And if on the off chance that the LPD had won the election and the highway agency has the 31 trillion yen worth of debt, do you really think they would have stopped building and adding to the debt, or would they have done everything they could to cut costs and pay down this debt. You tell me what they would have done. Look at it like a kind of tough love.
I also think that after a short while of the tolls being free, you won't see so many people loading everybody in the car and heading out. It is a novelty right now. Just wait a little.

[Mike Oxlong]

If they (the DPJ) want to do something really useful, they ought to reduce the tax on beer. Get the prices of malt beverages down, like they plan to do with the gasoline tax. That could stimulate beer sales, and destroy happoshu...isseki-nicho!

[FG Lurker]

You are right that there is huge debt, but where did it come from. Once the bureaucracy was in place, they had to continue to build roads that weren't wanted or needed.

Fine, then kill off the highway corp, re-nationalize the highways (fucked up to have privatized highways anyway IMO) and keep the tolls to pay off the current debt.

By the time the debt is paid off (30 to 40 years from now) the population will be considerably lower and perhaps road crowding won't be such a big issue. ]I also think that after a short while of the tolls being free, you won't see so many people loading everybody in the car and heading out. It is a novelty right now. Just wait a little.[/QUOTE]
I don't think we will see a considerable drop. The car is a much nicer way to travel and it makes getting around at destinations a lot easier. If there is no financial incentive to use public transportation then people will keep using their cars.

[IkemenTommy]

I say they make the expressway all free. Fuck that. I'll take the gara gara shinkansen and the kokunaisens while all you fucks suffer!!!:twisted:

[FG Lurker]

I say they make the expressway all free. Fuck that. I'll take the gara gara shinkansen and the kokunaisens while all you fucks suffer!!!:twisted:

If things get that empty then it will create more transportation systems that need government support to stay running.

None of this is "free" and although I can't speak for anyone else I certainly don't desire even higher income taxes and a 20% consumption tax.

[IkemenTommy]

If things get that empty then it will create more transportation systems that need government support to stay running.

None of this is "free" and although I can't speak for anyone else I certainly don't desire even higher income taxes and a 20% consumption tax.

I know.. but do I give a fuck? The whole concept of "free" does not work anywhere, but it will be a matter of time before anyone every figures out that someone will have to flip the bill. By the time they figure it out, the Minshito buddys will be out of office.

[canman]

Who knows maybe this will force the bastards at JR to bring their prices down. Now talk about a monopoly. They never cut their fares, and raise them during Obon, Golden week and New Years. Make the shinkansen more reasonable and people won't drive.

[dimwit]

Fine, then kill off the highway corp, re-nationalize the highways (fucked up to have privatized highways anyway IMO) and keep the tolls to pay off the current debt.

The problem with that is that the tolls were so high in Shikoku that no one actually used the expressways and they weren't even paying there operating costs. The 1000 yen ETC actually brought in considerably more income while not increasing costs.

[Samurai_Jerk]

The problem with that is that the tolls were so high in Shikoku that no one actually used the expressways and they weren't even paying there operating costs. The 1000 yen ETC actually brought in considerably more income while not increasing costs.

That's a good argument for lowering the tolls in Shikoku but not necessarily everywhere else.

[canman]

That is why SJ, I said leave the tolls at Y1000. That way people who want to drive will, but the gov't will still have money coming in, and who knows, it may get people interested in cars again. Whether that is good or bad, I'm not sure. There was an interesting article a couple of months ago citing how young guys are not interested in cars, like they used to be. It may have been the same article talking about how young males are afraid of girls and love eye liner, or some crap like that.