Child Abduction Issue Explodes

[Hikonejou]

I thought you understood everything about Japan?

I do, but it doesn't mean that I agree 100% with all Japanese Law.

It's not right that J-Moms to Marry Gaijins, have kids with them, pop out little Wence's and Becky's and then take them back to Japan and hide them from their foreign Fathers who are dying to see them, just because she decides that living in American, Brazil, England, or wherever doesn't fit her lifestyle as it was in Japan.

Japan has had this loop-hole open for so many years, and it's about time to close it.

[xenomorph42]

This is the response and the latest update to this abduction situation.
Chris Smith (R-NJ) is trying to write up a bill with some teeth in it to hopefully challenge Japan's crazy child law system. This is what he's proposing.

http://chrissmith.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=147346

[wuchan]

How would he have done that? His wife was allowed by the court to travel with the children to Japan so she would have had their passports.

It does not say which country issued the passports. If it was japan, which seems like the case due to his history, the judge would have to give them to her. If they were issued by the US he fucked up by giving them to the court. By placing them in a safe deposit box under the name of one of his parents or a friend he could plead the 5th if the court asked where the were.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

This is the response and the latest update to this abduction situation.
Chris Smith (R-NJ) is trying to write up a bill with some teeth in it to hopefully challenge Japan's crazy child law system. This is what he's proposing.

http://chrissmith.house.gov/News/DocumentSingle.aspx?DocumentID=147346

Much as I have tremendous sympathy for Savoie, if he's a Japanese citizen, he's one fucked gaijin now. Not only is he a child abductor, he also looks to be a bigamist under Japanese law. They could really throw the book at him (but won't because of the ramifications of doing so).
I think they will put him in the lock-up for his 23 days, "convince" him that keeping a low profile is the way a "good Japanese" behaves, then quietly shuffle him back to the US where he can rant and rave however much he likes because there aint no-one (who counts) listening to him here. They'll keep him out of Japan with the threat of prosecution if he returns (time overseas allows the statute of limitations to be extended by the same length).
In the meantime, Noriko gets some time bought for her to get her and her kids away from his clutches.

[Mulboyne]

It does not say which country issued the passports. If it was japan, which seems like the case due to his history, the judge would have to give them to her. If they were issued by the US he fucked up by giving them to the court. By placing them in a safe deposit box under the name of one of his parents or a friend he could plead the 5th if the court asked where the were.

If he had refused to hand over the passports, then he could have put his joint custody arrangement at risk. The reason I'm putting these points is that I'm trying to work out what he could have legally done to protect himself and it isn't clear what options he realistically had. As it stands, the passport issue is probably a blind alley: if his ex-wife managed to get the police in front of the consulate in time to intercept him, they would easily have had time to mobilize to apprehend him at ports or airports even if had made straight for them with valid passports. I still think his best chance would have to get inside the consulate with both children and stayed there.

[wuchan]

If he had refused to hand over the passports, then he could have put his joint custody arrangement at risk. The reason I'm putting these points is that I'm trying to work out what he could have legally done to protect himself and it isn't clear what options he realistically had. As it stands, the passport issue is probably a blind alley: if his ex-wife managed to get the police in front of the consulate in time to intercept him, they would easily have had time to mobilize to apprehend him at ports or airports even if had made straight for them with valid passports. I still think his best chance would have to get inside the consulate with both children and stayed there.

If he could get in that would be the best chance. The problem is that the US embassy and consulates won't let you in without an appointment, shit you can't even cross the street in front of the embassy without a passport and an appointment.

[Ketou]

I'm a bit confused about this nationalisation thing.....if he is a Japanese citizen then would he not have had to renounce his American citizenship? And if so how is it possible for him to live in the States?
Are they not confusing PR with actual citizenship??

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I'm a bit confused about this nationalisation thing.....if he is a Japanese citizen then would he not have had to renounce his American citizenship? And if so how is it possible for him to live in the States?
Are they not confusing PR with actual citizenship??

I'm not sure, but here's my guess (assuming that he is, indeed, a Japanese citizen).

1. He's Japanese, the kids are dual (both under 20) citizens of Japan and the U.S., thus entitled to U.S. protection.
2. He's got a U.S. green card, or whatever the American equivalent of a spouse visa is, courtesy of his current American wife. This would probably entitle him to some degree of U.S. support, as the spouse of a U.S. citizen.

If he is Japanese, that's where's he's really in trouble. Officials here are saying that his divorce with Noriko has not been registered here. If that's the case, he's a bigamist under Japanese law. If they treated him as a Japanese citizen, they'd throw the book at him. I'd be very surprised if they did do so...but they can really play hardball with him if they want because he's facing some very serious allegations.
Read my earlier post for what I guess will happen with him. There is a strong tendency in Japan for accused criminal suspects to change over the 23 days of legal detention they can serve before indictment so that they begin to see things the way authorities like them to.

[klimmer]

I just don't understand how this can be considered as abduction when they are not legally divorced in Japan.

[Greji]

Had he been a member of the remnants of the occupying forces (USFJ), he most certainly would have been allowed in, for anything from escape from a groping charge, to escape from a murder charge...

Mike, I hope you jest....

[Bucky]

I'm not sure, but here's my guess (assuming that he is, indeed, a Japanese citizen).

There are number of videos of a lengthy interview Savoie did that can be viewed here. He makes no bones about it, "I am a Japanese citizen," he says on at least three different occasions.

And here.

It seems a logical question would be, "Ok, if you are a Japanese citizen:nihonjin:, why are you not living in Japan?"

[Greji]

I'm not sure, but here's my guess (assuming that he is, indeed, a Japanese citizen).

1. He's Japanese, the kids are dual (both under 20) citizens of Japan and the U.S., thus entitled to U.S. protection.
2. He's got a U.S. green card, or whatever the American equivalent of a spouse visa is, courtesy of his current American wife. This would probably entitle him to some degree of U.S. support, as the spouse of a U.S. citizen.

There's one stickler here. When a person naturalizes, they are directed by the gaining country to go to the losing country and officially renounce their citizenship, turn in their passport and whatever. The people I know who have naturalized to Japanese and I am told, most of all of them, never go to the US to renounce their citizenship. If this is not done, the US still considers them citizens and the worse penalty they could suffer is for Japan to revoke their citizenship.

If he is Japanese, that's where's he's really in trouble. Officials here are saying that his divorce with Noriko has not been registered here. If that's the case, he's a bigamist under Japanese law. If they treated him as a Japanese citizen, they'd throw the book at him. I'd be very surprised if they did do so...but they can really play hardball with him if they want because he's facing some very serious allegations.

This depends. It depends on whose family register they are listed on. If they are listed on the wife's then she must remove it for the divorce. I would assume that is the way it would be as he "apparently" became Japanese later. Now unless he got his own family register started and wifey dear transfered into it. He is still a "mukou".

Read my earlier post for what I guess will happen with him. There is a strong tendency in Japan for accused criminal suspects to change over the 23 days of legal detention they can serve before indictment so that they begin to see things the way authorities like them to.

They could go the full 23 with this guy, but I would think the police will be wanting to duck this because of the roaring bad press implications. They won't go in to it deeply unless literally forced. This is a problem with the main issue. The police, as well as the Japanese government, generally considers these type of issues to just be no more than family disturbances/problems and not actual crimes.

[FG Lurker]

I thought you understood everything about Japan?

I do, but it doesn't mean that I agree 100% with all Japanese Law.

In my 15 years* living in Japan one thing I have learned is that those who make the strongest claims to know the most about Japan generally know so little that they don't realize just how little they actually know.

The same with the language -- the people I have met who claim to be most fluent are very far from it. Come to think of it, I don't think I have ever met someone I consider to be fluent in Japanese who would make that claim of themselves.

The more you learn the more you know how small a fraction you actually understand.

*15 years in Japan just about qualifies me for n00b status on these boards.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

There's one stickler here. When a person naturalizes, they are directed by the gaining country to go to the losing country and officially renounce their citizenship, turn in their passport and whatever. The people I know who have naturalized to Japanese and I am told, most of all of them, never go to the US to renounce their citizenship. If this is not done, the US still considers them citizens and the worse penalty they could suffer is for Japan to revoke their citizenship.

True. (Renunciation is actually even more difficult...but I'm certain in the eyes of the U.S. Savoie is still a citizen). He'd be better off if he was in the U.S. But, TIJ. And he's detained under Japanese law. Authorities could throw the book at him if they chose to do so. I don't think they will, but they are not obliged to recognize him as American and, in fact, under local law, will not do so. As far as they are concerned, he has renounced US citizenship.

This depends. It depends on whose family register they are listed on. If they are listed on the wife's then she must remove it for the divorce. I would assume that is the way it would be as he "apparently" became Japanese later. Now unless he got his own family register started and wifey dear transfered into it. He is still a "mukou".

True again. Another quagmire. If authorities here still regard them as married, they're probably still on the same koseki. Which means he still has rights to the kids, perhaps? Maybe he could fight it out in courts here. All speculation. He's really stuffed up there, though. He could have taken the high moral ground, pointed out that Noriko is a fugitive in the U.S. and demanded custody, saying her status would mean giving her custody would deprive their children of an opportunity to be in the land of their citizenship, perhaps culture. Who knows? A sympathetic mediator (I think there are one or two around) may have supported him. The guy is apparently a PhD, so he'd have fairly strong grounds. Not any more, though...he's a suspected criminal. And Japan is not real good when it comes to giving second chances unless you're a corrupt politician or drunken/drugged/sex-crazed entertainer. I don't think he fits the bill

They could go the full 23 with this guy, but I would think the police will be wanting to duck this because of the roaring bad press implications. They won't go in to it deeply unless literally forced. This is a problem with the main issue. The police, as well as the Japanese government, generally considers these type of issues to just be no more than family disturbances/problems and not actual crimes.

Agree, 100%. Both Japan and the U.S. want this guy out of their hair ASAP. That's why I say they'll chuck him on a plane with a reminder of possible charges hanging over his head to imply the "Yokoso Japan" mat isn't necessarily laid out for him anymore.
In the highly unlikely event Clinton or Obama or someone else who normally has bigger fish to fry starts talking about the case, it may lead to Japan finally signing on. But as long as it's some essentially no-name hick politician raising their hackles, it'll get the same reaction here as front-page CNN coverage: zilch.

Klimmer: It can be abduction because they are not living together and she is regarded as the legal guardian of the minors in his absence. If a minor is removed from care against the will of a guardian and without legal recourse to do it, then it's abduction. As I don't know the exact details of the case, it's hard to say for sure, but I'd guess that's what may happen.

[Mike Oxlong]

If he could get in that would be the best chance. The problem is that the US embassy and consulates won't let you in without an appointment, shit you can't even cross the street in front of the embassy without a passport and an appointment.

Armchair QBing here, but couldn't he have made an appointment in advance, to say he's coming in with his kids to apply for passports or some such thing, and then arrive with them at least expecting you...?

[Greji]

Armchair QBing here, but couldn't he have made an appointment in advance, to say he's coming in with his kids to apply for passports or some such thing, and then arrive with them at least expecting you...?

You're absolutely right. But the problem comes when he gets inside what can he do? The Embassy as an arm of the government is not allowed to actively enter into a civil issue unless there's an indication of potential harm to the parent, or children (unfortunately, ass kickings by J-police don't really qualify). Sooner or later, he and the children were going to have to walk out of the legation and face them.. I'm afraid there's just too many "what ifs" here to figure out what he should have done, or could now do.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

You're absolutely right. But the problem comes when he gets inside what can he do? The Embassy as an arm of the government is not allowed to actively enter into a civil issue unless there's an indication of potential harm to the parent, or children (unfortunately, ass kickings by J-police don't really qualify). Sooner or later, he and the children were going to have to walk out of the legation and face them.. I'm afraid there's just too many "what ifs" here to figure out what he should have done, or could now do.

Holy shit...

....This whole thing is just a clusterfuck. Those poor, adorable little kids. What must all this be doing to them?

[Ketou]

Holy shit...

....This whole thing is just a clusterfuck. Those poor, adorable little kids. What must all this be doing to them?

There's the real tragedy....

[xenomorph42]

I just don't understand how this can be considered as abduction when they are not legally divorced in Japan.

Don't wonder. If it would make rational sense then it wouldn't be Japan, now would it?

[Mike Oxlong]

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Apparently Noriko's not selling anymore...

[Mulboyne]

I wonder if Japan might be tempted to take away his Japanese nationality with a view to limiting his movements in and out of Japan in the future. Then again, they might think that's too controversial a step to take.

The narrative which is beginning to emerge in some quarters is that Savoie moved to the US with Noriko and children only last year. Within a matter of months, they divorced, he remarried and they went through court proceedings in the US to determine custody. A harsh interpretation is that Savoie was having an affair, knew he was going to divorce Noriko and arranged to bring his family to the US in order to ensure access to his children under US law, knowing that he might lose access in Japan. I suppose, it's possible, but very unlikely, that Noriko knew about the impending divorce but wanted to establish some right of abode in the US first. In this interpretation, Noriko has been stranded in the US.

Some fathers might argue that Savoie had no alternative other than to be a cad and deceive his ex-wife because he would have lost access to his children if he had divorced while they were in Japan. He had to assume she would do the worst because he would have no recourse if he assumed the best and it didn't play out that way. However you look at it, it's a pretty ugly situation.

What is most difficult, is trying to work out what would be a good solution to this problem regardless of who you think is most at fault. Even if the US and Japan sides put their heads together to cooperate, I can't see what compromise they could come up with which would satisfy all sides.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

another possibility is that SHE is the one that wanted to move to america. i know it's shock and horror that a j-girl would marry a guy to secure a move to the big yoonited states, but it's not totally unheard of. him becoming a naturalised j-cit suggests that he was prepared to say in nippon for the long haul.

they moved to tennessee where he likely had some kind of family/connection (why else would anyone move there??), she realises it ain't quite the glam and glitz of nyc or la and starts the nagging about wanting to go back to japan. he refuses because he doesn't want yet another move, and divorce/annulment/chaos ensues.

[Bucky]

Sounds like she got a pretty good settlement out of the divorce AND he was screwing around with another woman. Maybe he should be declared persona non grata in Japan and told to get lost as maybe he deserves.

"But court records also show another side of this custody battle: A feuding couple, with the now ex-wife accusing the husband of having an affair, and Noriko not wanting the children around the current wife.
Christopher and Noriko Savoie's divorce was finalized in January. The couple reached a settlement so the children could live near their father, said Jo Nystrom, a friend and neighbor to the Savoies.
Savoie transferred $700,000 to Noriko, according to the divorce decree. "She got the money and the children," Nystrom said. "It's sad."
Nokiro was struggling with acclimating to the United States after initially trying to bring up her children in her native Japan, according to court records.

[Behan]

Sounds like she got a pretty good settlement out of the divorce AND he was screwing around with another woman. Maybe he should be declared persona non grata in Japan and told to get lost as maybe he deserves.

I think the problem is more with how she did it and how the US consulate just turned their backs on him. There are so many cases of Japanese parents ignoring foreign court orders and abducting their children back to Japan that you couldn't say the FG is in the wrong every time.

[xenomorph42]

another possibility is that SHE is the one that wanted to move to america. i know it's shock and horror that a j-girl would marry a guy to secure a move to the big yoonited states, but it's not totally unheard of. him becoming a naturalised j-cit suggests that he was prepared to say in nippon for the long haul.

they moved to tennessee where he likely had some kind of family/connection (why else would anyone move there??), she realises it ain't quite the glam and glitz of nyc or la and starts the nagging about wanting to go back to japan. he refuses because he doesn't want yet another move, and divorce/annulment/chaos ensues.

I think you are totally 100% on the money. I knew this one girl a couple of years back, she married this guy because he was loaded and they moved to Iowa, yea, I know and she told me that she needed security and someone that could provide for her to kids, but she was boinking this Navy guy and was madly in love with him, she said, he was a great lover and she needed it for m him, but she couldn't part with the goofy guy with all the loot. Some women are like that. Some Japanese women that are married to FG's often don't approve if they see their kids adopt the culture, language and lifestyle of the other relatives country of origin.

[Mike Oxlong]

What ever happened to the good old yamato-nadeshiko who stoically stood by her man and keep her family together even as he went out and toiled for the family and unwound with his coworkers with a few cold drinks and a few hot tamales?

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Sounds like she got a pretty good settlement out of the divorce

This is beginning to read like a Dr. Suess story...An American-born Japanese is being held in Japan, but wants to go back to America, and a Japanese who's a legal resident of the U.S. is a fugitive under American law and wants to stay in Japan. They've got two kids, who are both American and Japanese, who were becoming too American so dragged back to Japan, and now caught up in a muddled attempt by the Japanese to take them back to America after being trapped by Japanese police outside the U.S. consulate.

Just to add to the confusion, that articles refers to her as "Noriko" and "Nokiro."

I just pray the kids are all right, whatever happens.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

I think you are totally 100% on the money. I knew this one girl a couple of years back, she married this guy because he was loaded and they moved to Iowa, yea, I know and she told me that she needed security and someone that could provide for her to kids, but she was boinking this Navy guy and was madly in love with him, she said, he was a great lover and she needed it for m him, but she couldn't part with the goofy guy with all the loot. Some women are like that. Some Japanese women that are married to FG's often don't approve if they see their kids adopt the culture, language and lifestyle of the other relatives country of origin.

i know several stories like this, both japanese and russian. it's a lot like 'the grass is always greener on the other side, just as long as you don't eat it'.

i can totally see your theory that as soon as the kids started to drop f-bombs or act like what they see on american tv, then noriko decides it's time to pack it in and give the kids a real education.

[Mulboyne]

One CBS report is on YouTube if you haven't followed any of the video links so far. Nothing new but there is an animation showing him being apprehended at the consulate in case you can't picture it yourself.

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And an older one from CNN which is informative for me in showing that Savoie's friend "Shannon" is a man.

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And another which has already been mentioned here:

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[Kanchou]

I heard something on the news that suggested that his Japanese wasn't all that great, and there has been no mention of him being a naturalized J-dude.