Toyota's Lexus Problem

[Mulboyne]

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USAToday: Government study points up potential safety shortcomings in Toyota and Lexus models if accelerator sticks

As Toyota undertakes its largest recall ever starting with having 3.8 million owners remove the driver-side floor mats to keep them from jamming accelerators wide open, a government report from last year indicates many owners will likely have a terrible time trying to stop their cars in the event of a stuck gas pedal, fire or other emergency. as pedal, fire or other emergency. The report concerned National Highway Traffic Safety Administration tests on the Lexus ES 350, but the features it talks about can be found on some of the other six Toyota and Lexus models covered by last week's safety warning. The report said Lexus ES 350 owners would need 150 pounds of force, five times the normal foot pressure, to halt their speeding car. They likely would have trouble finding the neutral gear in an emergency. And the three seconds needed to turn off the engine by continuously pushing the keyless power stop-start button, found on many Toyota models, "is not widely known by owners." The three-second requirement is not even mentioned in the owner's manual. Yet one out of 10 of Lexus ES 350 owners surveyed said that they had experienced an instance of the accelerator becoming stuck open by floor mats creeping underneath. See the whole report by clicking here (PDF) ...more...

[Ketou]

Not being able to find neutral is a bit on the stupid side....

[Mike Oxlong]

Once again, drivers can't be assed to straighten out the mats each time they go for a spin, and panic and freeze up when any problem appears. I believe the Ford Explorer had a similar problem - stupid drivers...

[FG Lurker]

This is pretty fucked up. Not being able to find neutral!? Anyone who can't find neutral shouldn't have a license. Perhaps better driver training (and occasional refresher courses) should be required.

[AlbertSiegel]

Do some of the Lexus models have an electronic or push-button gear select like the higher end BMW's do these days?

[TennoChinko]

The date on that NHTSA memo ( http://i.usatoday.net/money/_pdfs/09-1006-nhtsa-memo.pdf ) was April 30th 2008 ...

Pretty impressive on the part of Toyota PR to keep it suppressed for over a year. A couple more deaths but a lot more car sales. Yeah~! Go Team Toyota!

[Doctor Stop]

Pretty impressive on the part of Toyota PR to keep it suppressed for over a year.

That's Just In Time production for you. All hail The Toyota Way.

[Greji]

The date on that NHTSA memo ( http://i.usatoday.net/money/_pdfs/09-1006-nhtsa-memo.pdf ) was April 30th 2008 ...

Pretty impressive on the part of Toyota PR to keep it suppressed for over a year. A couple more deaths but a lot more car sales. Yeah~! Go Team Toyota!

I understand that since those mats cost about 10,000 hashimoto's a piece and Toyota paid somewhere in the vicinity of 250 mil yankee for the recall...
Could be a reason for them to take time to start the recall. So what if you bend a few bumpers back into the front seat during that time. That's why you pay extra for airbags...

[bidayuhboy]

Can't find neutral or turn off the key. Dumb. I also heard they were not Toyota floor mats but some cheapos. The car was a rental so that is quite possible.

The prez of Toyota apologized and said gomen for the crash to the American media [url=[URL="http://www.detnews.com/article/20091002/AUTO01/910020425/1148/rss25]http://www.detnews.com/article/20091002/AUTO01/910020425/1148/rss25[/url]" Not that he really cares. But I know that a US company would never give a rats ass about it.

[Doctor Stop]

Toyota to recall 82,000 cars in Japan

TOKYO (AP) -- Toyota Motor Corp. will recall more than 82,220 Vitz compact cars in Japan due to a faulty window switch, the transport ministry said Wednesday.

The defective window switch could short out due to excessive lubrication, possibly causing it to catch fire, said ministry official Kazumi Furukawa.

The ministry has recorded 32 malfunction cases, including one fire, due to faulty window switches in the Vitz since 2007. No one was injured in the fire.

The recall in Japan will begin Thursday, Furukawa said. When a car maker wants to recall vehicles in Japan, it must inform the transport ministry of the plan.

Toyota's Vitz subcompact, which is marketed overseas as the Yaris, is one of Japan's top-selling cars.

The world's No. 1 automaker announced last month it would recall some 3.8 million vehicles in the United States - Toyota's biggest recall there - after four people were killed in August in a high-speed crash suspected of being caused by a floor mat jamming an accelerator.

[Mike Oxlong]

[SIZE="6"]Owners of Toyota Cars in Rebellion Over Series of Accidents Caused by Sudden Acceleration[/SIZE]
[SIZE="4"]ABC News Investigation Uncovers Reports of 16 Deaths, Over 200 Accidents; Toyota Owners Demand Answers[/SIZE]

Refusing to accept the explanation of Toyota and the federal government, hundreds of Toyota owners are in rebellion after a series of accidents caused by what they call "runaway cars."

Safety analysts found an estimated 2000 cases in which owners of Toyota cars including Camry, Prius and Lexus, reported that their cars surged without warning up to speeds of 100 miles per hour...

[Yokohammer]

Hoboy ... this is starting to look nasty. Could be a huge problem for Toyota at a time when massive recalls (and lawsuits) are the last thing they need. Whatever, the truth will have to come out and be dealt with.

I came very close to ordering a new Prius last month, but decided the technology wasn't quite mature enough just yet and ordered a Honda instead. The fact that I'd have to wait 9 or 10 months for the Prius didn't help either.

[Typhoon]

[SIZE="6"]Owners of Toyota Cars in Rebellion Over Series of Accidents Caused by Sudden Acceleration[/SIZE]
[SIZE="4"]ABC News Investigation Uncovers Reports of 16 Deaths, Over 200 Accidents]

It's most likely a case of deja vu . . . all over again.

Audi ran into a similar problem in the US at one point.

After a lengthy and expensive investigation, the US NTSB concluded that most people were simply too stupid to be behind the wheel of a car.
Although they couldn't word it quite that way.

Wikipedia: "This decline in sales was not helped in the United States by a 60 Minutes report which showed faked footage an Audi 5000 suffering from a supposed problem of "unintended acceleration" when the brake pedal was pushed, and emotional interviews with six people who had sued Audi after they crashed their cars. Independent investigators concluded there was no mechanical problem, and driver error, partially due to drivers not paying attention to the closer placement of the accelerator and brake pedals than some American cars. The difference was partially attributed to European driver's preferences for smoother heel-and-toe driving techniques. This did not become an issue in Europe, possibly due to more widespread experience among European drivers with manual transmissions."

[Typhoon]

Correction. DOT - NHTSA [cars] not NTSB [aviation].

[Kuang_Grade]

The NHSTA report was ABC News lead off story tonight....Its been a long, long time since something bumped off Obama/healthcare/US Wars/the US economy off the lead story on ABC(although it is sweeps month in the US, when TV ratings are measured, so news programs tend to be extra lively/lurid during this month..."Is there something in your refrigerator that could kill you and your family...tune in at 11 to find out what is!") That's not good for Toyota, because that going attract a whole lot more media attention on this issue.

The Audi comparison may not hold up because at least some of these folks are claiming that this is happening while they already out driving on the road and not working the gears from a parked position.

[Kagetsu]

I'm a member of another forum (Australian) where there was a very much, heated debate over what was occuring in these cars... Something along the lines of 50-60 pages long, though it's probably longer now.

A few people there had experienced similar issues, with accelerator running rampant etc. I myself personally have experienced issues with floor mats sliding up into my clutch pedal (right hand drive) and while making it depress slightly, it wasn't enough to make it go in enough to dissengage. My personal opinion was that the mat may have been a factor in the accidents and incidents, but it wasn't the cause.
My opinion is the fly by wire system. In cars, the ABS has the ability to over-ride all signals from the brake line if enabled. However, in older cars, this system was stand alone. If the ABS controller broke, you'd still have brakes. I'm assuming that many of these newer cars experiencing issues, are completely fly by wire (and Automatic seems to be the case too, so there's no clutch there). As the problem is occuring in Lexus (amongst other brands) don't the newer ones coming with automatic braking?

Anyway, the suggestions are that either there's a conflict program, where the car prevents the brakes being used while the car is accelerating and visa versa.

But I will say this. There is NO way a floor mat holding the accelerator pedal in slightly will accelerate it to 120mph.

[Mulboyne]

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[Coligny]

As much as I hate Audi ... The whole Automobile Under Demonic Influence fiasco was not their fault but more an ergonomical feature where throttle and gas were to close together...

For Toyota it look much more like a... FUCK YOU CUSTOMERS... kind of problem...

On a side note... the list of Japanese brand that will try to kill you just got a little longuer.

Mitsubishi
Fuso
Toyota
by proxy:
Subaru
Daihatsu

So now... remain Suzuki, Nissan and Honda... (or if you feel lucky... Mitsuoka)

[canman]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to cut the mats in the car, or anchor them down. Or does that make too much sense.

[Coligny]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to cut the mats in the car, or anchor them down. Or does that make too much sense.

If it was the problem and not bullshit made on the fly to cover up... yes...
From what we can guess aboot the real origin of the problem... carpets are the least of your worries...

[Greji]

Wouldn't the easiest solution be to cut the mats in the car, or anchor them down. Or does that make too much sense.

Some of them are anchored. At least in my Land Cruiser, there is a kind of eyelet type anchor on the driver's mat and it won't move at all.

[Yokohammer]

If it was the problem and not bullshit made on the fly to cover up... yes...
From what we can guess aboot the real origin of the problem... carpets are the least of your worries...

This is really the scary part.

Nothing is directly connected to anything any more ... the accelerator pedal isn't directly connected to the throttle, the brake pedal isn't directly connected to the brakes, and the shift lever isn't directly connected to the transmission. There's a bunch of electronics interpreting the driver's supposed intentions and passing that info on to the mechanics in "optimized" form. I find that disturbing, but I suppose that's how large passenger aircraft function as well.

[Catoneinutica]

Toyota would like you to believe it's just a "floor mat" problem. It's not.

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-toyota-throttle29-2009nov29,0,5254584.story

[GuyJean]

The 911 call mentioned in the video above.. A lot of speculation on the comments, but not sure if YouTube is known for it's experts...

Saylor Family killed in the fiery collision around 6:35 p.m. Friday Aug. 31st 2009, at the end of state Route 125 at Mission Gorge Road. 911 call.

[YT]KHGSWs4uJzY[/YT]

GJ

[Taro Toporific]

Via slashdot.org comments:

[url="slashdot.org/comments]http://tech.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1430048&cid=29974802
.....[/url]Drive-by-wire stuff is scary. Power assist is fine, but if your hydraulic power steering loses pressure you can still steer the car (even if the steering is much heavier). Vacuum-assisted braking has enough storage to last 2-3 brake pedal pushes, and after that the brakes still function even if they too are much heavier. Antilock braking is scary enough even though it's comparatively failsafe. Handing over complete control of any further automotive function to a computer is goddamn terrifying.

[Coligny]

Via slashdot.org comments:

Yes and no... It's when it's done on the cheap for economical reasons that it's palin wrong.

I'm sure a big part of the lunacy in the throttle response of my Note come from 'strange' software decision (sometimes gunning the throttle actually stop the car, other time little push get it jumping, other times it's a slug as expected, and I'm not even inducing humidity related variations).
But here with Totoya there is no EVIDENT failsafe (*). On the Nissan I can, and actually always do it all the time (red light approach, smooth hill descent) shift to neutral or more than easily shut down the engine. If the throttle goes banana I can even try the equivalent of electronic PWM (pulse width modulation) by rocking the gear lever between neutral and drive. Or put an end to this car mirery by switching to slow mode at a speed greater than 50kph (this one, i'm not sure is allowed, but if I can slow down between 30-40, after, while using it I can still go to the next gas station to kill it in a bonfire)

Dad in law bought a Prius last year... and he still don't even want to bother aboot how to use the gearbox lock (P button) just using the -quite symbolical- parking brake. This is serious user interface failure.

(*) all the procedural crap to supposedly mandatorily shutdown the engine rank between bad joke, insult or total disregard to human life.

[Greji]

it's palin wrong.

Do you think it was Sarah's fault? Most would blame it on Bush....

[Yokohammer]

Yes and no... It's when it's done on the cheap for economical reasons that it's palin wrong.

I can't imaging a car manufacturer wanting to design this DBW stuff "on the cheap." Surely they'd be thinking "lawsuit" and would be doing their best to make it as safe as possible. Then again, maybe I just don't understand the economics of automobile manufacturing.

Still scary though.

[wuchan]

I can't imaging a car manufacturer wanting to design this DBW stuff "on the cheap." Surely they'd be thinking "lawsuit" and would be doing their best to make it as safe as possible. Then again, maybe I just don't understand the economics of automobile manufacturing.

Still scary though.

If they cut the steering column out they don't have to engineer two separate front end suspension systems for RHD and LHD.

[Mulboyne]

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Washington Post: Toyota faced pressure from U.S. officials before announcing recall

Toyota's decision on Tuesday to suspend the manufacturing and sale of eight models follows months of wrangling with federal safety officials, and stark disagreements with them over what was causing unintended accelerations. As recently as November, the company claimed that the acceleration problem was caused by faulty floor mats, a diagnosis that made for a simple solution: take them out. The issue "has been repeatedly and thoroughly investigated" by federal regulators at the National Highway Transportation Safety Administration, Bob Daly, a Toyota senior vice president assured customers at the time.

But two days later, the agency issued an unusual statement seeking to correct "inaccurate and misleading information put out by Toyota." Removing floor mats doesn't fix the underlying vehicle defect, it said, adding that it is related to the accelerator and floor pan design. This back-and-forth, followed by new accidents and then this week's admission that indeed some Toyota models have defective accelerator pedals, amounts to a debacle for a company that became one of the largest automakers by burnishing its reputation for safety and reliability. On Wednesday, customers deluged dealerships with questions, some rental companies announced that they were dumping all Toyotas and competitors advertised that they would seek to scoop up their rival's newly disaffected customers...more...