Problems with bi-lingual/bi-cultural child rearing

[Bucky]

[Greji]

This family seems to have a bit of an identity problem.

Somebody might think about smacking her with a brick to solve her "cultural crisis." I raised a whole litter of bilingual crum crunchers that happily and fluently, call me an asshole in either language.

I read that article to say the writer is the one in crisis...

[Samurai_Jerk]

If anyone here has bi-sexual daughters (or great granddaughters, Greji) they're having trouble with, I'd be happy to take over as project manager.

[waruta]

Somebody might think about smacking her with a brick to solve her "cultural crisis." I raised a whole litter of bilingual crum crunchers that happily and fluently, call me an asshole in either language.

I read that article to say the writer is the one in crisis...

So to summarize, the Nimura clan is now going to be Japanese only in name...A father that's pure Japanese and can't speak past 4th grade level, two kids that aren't going to bother to learn the language properly and a mother that strives to learn the culture and language but doesn't bother passing it on to her offspring...

Why the fuck do WE bother to learn Japanese then? This situation reminds me of the Japanese-American yearly picnics that we had in WA/Seattle where there were 300+ people present, and the only true language speakers were 20 or so Obasan left over from the war, and me, the FG. There was a bunch of blond, blue-eyed kids running around with names like Musashi and Ken but didn't speak a word of the damn language. Nisei barely knew the language, and by Sansei, you could forget even hoping they would speak Japanese....what a waste of opportunity... :wall:

[FG Lurker]

what a waste of opportunity... :wall:

Meh, mostly a dead language anyway. Best to put the effort elsewhere.

[Taka-Okami]

Speaking from experience, it's the mother that dictates what language the kid speak in the early years before school. If she's too dumb to learn a language, which lets face it, is one of the easiest to learn to speak (not write however), and only speak Japanese in the house, then she shouldnt be moaning about it.

Stupid white bitches are all the same...

[Samurai_Jerk]

a language, which lets face it, is one of the easiest to learn to speak

Wow. How full of shit can a person be?

[waruta]

Wow. How full of shit can a person be?

I concur SJ, from Wikipedia (though I have seen assessments and other reports claiming the same)]"

[Yokohammer]

Wow. How full of shit can a person be?

Full to overflowing, apparently.

[waruta]

Full to overflowing, apparently.

That explains the brown eyes... :domo:

[maraboutslim]

FWIW, I find Japanese much, much easier to learn to *speak* than any of the major European languages. The grammar is much easier, there are so many set phrases, etc.

My kids' first language was Japanese and after moving to California my wife and I set the policy of only speaking Japanese at home in hopes that they would be bilingual. But once the kids are in school, it doesn't really do any good anyway. The older the kids get, the less they want to speak to their parents. They get the experience of hearing it spoken but don't speak it much themselves. Heck, my daughter goes to japanese school (full curriculum: history, science, math, etc.) on saturdays and in the summer and I still don't think she will come out of it knowing any more japanese than she could if she had skipped all that and just gone and spent a year in japan in her late teens or early twenties or something. Same goes for all the kids in that program: they've been doing that program for years and their japanese pretty much sucks.

In other words, one really needs to be "in country" to really get proficient at a language and me having lived there gave me much better skills than any schooling and experience my kids are getting here is giving them.

[Greji]

Speaking from experience, it's the mother that dictates what language the kid speak in the early years before school. If she's too dumb to learn a language, which lets face it, is one of the easiest to learn to speak (not write however), and only speak Japanese in the house, then she shouldnt be moaning about it.

Stupid white bitches are all the same...

My mama was one of those "stupid white bitches," that seem to intimidate you so much. She was quite pleased and supportive of her grandchildren learning English and Japanese. BTW, she was a razor toting woman that would have probably knocked your little dick in the dust just on GPs.

[Ganma]

FWIW, I find Japanese much, much easier to learn to *speak* than any of the major European languages. The grammar is much easier, there are so many set phrases, etc.

I guess it varies from person to person. I picked up German a lot faster when I was learning it than Japanese, although I don't speak it much now as I have no chance to speak it.

In other words, one really needs to be "in country" to really get proficient at a language and me having lived there gave me much better skills than any schooling and experience my kids are getting here is giving them.

This I agree with. Unless you torment your kid with a strict double education like the Chinese do in western countries teaching your kids to be bilingual is no easy task.

[nottu]

[dimwit]

[AruOjisan]

If I may add to this discussion,

The last two posts are, in fact, spot on. Language exposure at an early age is critical to allowing persons to pick up other languages at a later age.

Essentially, your brain becomes programed to understand your native language as "the correct form of language". However, if your brain never developes this faculty--i.e., you grow up in a bilingual home or around people who have an unclear grasp of any one language--you'll find it much easier to pick up foreign languages, as their's no real set pattern in your own mind.

This goes back to the discussion on difficulty of apprehension. Japanese, Americans, and French are generally raised in a completely ethnocentric environment and consequently grow up believing that all other languages are "strange" and "alien", if not outright "stupid" or "uncouth".

Ever notice how retarded said cultures are when it comes to learning another language? Compare to Latinos, N. Europeans, and E. Europeans... fluency in a few months, clean accents in a couple years (assuming they are isolated).

[maraboutslim]

This goes back to the discussion on difficulty of apprehension. Japanese, Americans, and French are generally raised in a completely ethnocentric environment and consequently grow up believing that all other languages are "strange" and "alien", if not outright "stupid" or "uncouth".

Americans grow up in ethnocentric environment? Ridiculous!

This is simply not true about "Americans." It may be true about some isolated pockets of Americans (say, west virginia where only 2.3% are bilingual), but most places are very ethnically diverse and amazingly multi-lingual (46% of Californians speak more than one language, for instance).

In fact, over 20% of the population uses a non-English language as their "at home" language. And since only 5% of them say they can't speak English well, most of these folks are proficient in at least two languages. Then of course there is another large percentage of folks who use English at home but also know another language (this is a common immigrant pattern).

Perhaps your misperception of this reality is due to your own ethnocentric idea of what an "American" is?

[AruOjisan]

Perhaps your misperception of this reality is due to your own ethnocentric idea of what an "American" is?

...perhaps I should have said "white Americans", instead?

Ultimately, I don't think anyone can reasonably argue that they are NOT some of the most obtuse people when it comes to apprehending another language.

But no need to get defensive, I'm not saying I disagree--I mean, people should be grateful that we're even bothering to speak/butcher their language, right?

[nottu]

[maraboutslim]

You guys just don't get it. If you guys said, "white Americans," or "Caucasian Americans," that'd still include the largest bilingual group in the USA, Spanish speakers. The distinction of "native" vs. "non-native," is a little curious as well since hispanics are at least as native on this landmass as irish/german/english/french, no? Why do you want to exclude hispanics from your vision of what "America" is? They are a vibrant part of what the USA is and people should stop ignoring that when talking about "America."

The problem in the US right now is the lack of integration of these foreign language speakers - particularly Spanish speakers - who can live for decades in the US without even learning any English. Go to Miami sometime - you'll see what I'm talking about.

I don't see why this is a "problem." We don't see it as a problem that certain people in member states of the EU don't speak the same language as their neighbor states. And they all seem to get along well enough (and the conflicts they do have are religion and class based, not language). The USA is a conglomeration of communities, cities, counties, states each with their own laws and economies and cultures. There is no "problem" with some of these using different main languages, especially when there are plenty of bilinguals to aid communication between the communities.

But furthermore, your claim about Miami type English-free zones is simply not representative of the situation in the USA. It's a very isolated case that involves a very small number of people in the overall scheme of things. The real stats are that only 5% of Americans don't speak English well. And we know nearly all of those are first generation recent immigrants.

[maraboutslim]

p.s. don't you mean appreciate or comprehend or acquire or learn or speak or something else other than "apprehend" a language? and what is this "megitsune" you are looking for? (and fwiw, "doko desu ka, ore no megitsune?" would be a more typical way to phrase your question, if you still want to preserve the backwards phrasing).

[nottu]

[nottu]

[AruOjisan]

A little off the scotch now - down to blood alcohol level 60%-

The problem is these people are fucking poor and they will never get better in this world, their supengo world. but they have a negro president working for them don't they? fucking dumbshits.
stupid mfs - losers - live in their nuevo Cuba.

lol--wut?

@maraboutslim:

My problem with what you're saying is that you're force-labeling an ethnic group completely contrary to how most would self identify. "Latinos" generally come from multiracial societies, and identify based on culture rather than superficialities of race--e.g., Chinese/indian/black-Jamaicans would sooner associate with one another than with their Old-world cousins. It's actually very backwards, and very "white American" to box/package people according to race--e.g., assuming a jamaican, dominican, and black-american would have anything in common is really the height of ignorance.

(And yes--I do see the irony in my referring to the "Gringo" cultural group, as "white Americans"--care to help me find a better label?)

So yeah, my original comment still stands. As Notto said, "White/Black Americans", have no use for a second language and consequently form mental blocks that prevent them from *acquiring* natural language proficiency. But since Black Americans rarely leave the country on their own dime, it's generally the Whites who're out there butchering foreign languages and eventually maligning their host cultures for not "appreciating" their efforts.

PS: "doko da, ore no megitsune wa?" is a more "natural" way of saying "Where my bitches at?" lol ... I LOVE it when I can find an equivalent (in terms of connotation), almost-direct translation of a phrase so dear to me.

PPS: I quickly learned that JPN folk will rarely give you "natural" translations; most of they time they'll give you "dumbed down for Gaijin" translations, that are #1 awkward sounding and #2 lack the correct connotation

[maraboutslim]

My problem with what you're saying is that you're force-labeling an ethnic group completely contrary to how most would self identify.

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying that I am wrong to "label" immigrant groups as Americans? My posts were simply to point out that the belief that "Americans," don't speak other languages is ridiculous. Maybe white folk from West Virginia (as I mentioned) and maybe non-immigrant black folks in various locals (as you guys pointed out), but the statistics are clear about the percentage of Americans who speak other languages and to continue to claim Americans don't is silly.

[quote]PPS: I quickly learned that JPN folk will rarely give you "natural" translations]

Gee, sounds like you have "JPN" all figured out. I personally feel they only give dumbed down Japanese to dumbed down gaijin, but what do I know. It's not like I have any actual experience living in Japan and speaking Japanese or anything

Head on over and use your favorite phrase. I'm sure it'll take you far.

[nottu]

[Samurai_Jerk]

maraboutslim,

You really don't know what the fuck you're talking about. I'll take it further than nottu and AruOjisan and say that most Americans don't speak a second language to any degree of proficiency including Hispanics and Asians who were born in the US or immigrated at a very young age.

I grew up in NYC with a very diverse group of friends many or who were immigrants or the children of immigrants. Almost none of them spoke anything other than English.

I always wonder when I read these numbers for the percentage of bilingual Americans what the standard is. Are you bilingual if you can understand your mom when she curses you out in her mother tongue and know just enough to greet your grandparents in the "traditional" way but not much else?

[maraboutslim]

Yeah, well fuck you guys too. I'm surrounded by bilingual people on a daily basis. Spanish, Chinese, German, Portuguese, Tagalog, various other Asian languages, and of course the hundreds of bilingual Japanese - English speakers we know and associate with regularly.

Of course this is in California, not flyover territory, but there are a lot of fucking people in California and places like this, so we tilt the statistics for "America" quite a lot.

My reality is the true America. Yours is the one of sterotypes. The America of white privilege country clubs is statistically dead. And good riddance. I'll welcome a poor Spanish speaking immigrant family over those assholes any day.

If I don't know what I'm talking about on this topic, it'll be the first. I usually know everything about everything. Just like you all.

[Mock Cockpit]

. I usually know everything about everything. Just like you all.

Especially when I'm off my face!

[AruOjisan]

Samurai_Jerk hit it on the head. What most "bilingual" Americans would describe as "fluency" wouldn't get them past elementary school. As for this...

[quote="maraboutslim"] ... Gee, sounds like you have "JPN" all figured out. I personally feel they only give dumbed down Japanese to dumbed down gaijin, but what do I know. It's not like I have any actual experience living in Japan and speaking Japanese or anything ]

...I didn't mean to imply JPN are actively being condescending/contemptuous (mikudasa), rather it seems to be more of an acute underestimation/disregard (mikubiru) for the ability of Gaijin to "get it".

According to my GF and a couple of her friends/colleagues, speaking too stiffly/by-the-book or in an over-emphasized way is what characterizes "gaijin japanese" (their words). Then again, when pressed on this, the only things they could agree on was the overuse of "yo" and "ka"...

Which bring me back to you previous comment: the "ka" was out of place--yes, it was/is technically correct, but is not how most/normal people would say it (according to my GF, but she's a bit of ditz, so maybe you're right?). Sorry to have implied your JPN sucked or that your JPN friend thought your dumb...

solidarity, yo~