Korean Innate Singing Talent

[Mulboyne]

[Dragonette]

[Yokohammer]

I haven't especially noticed that Koreans are good singers but that's probably because I don't really know very many. On the other hand, I've always found Filipino singers to be well above average.

Back in the 70's there were more clubs with live bands and music around Tokyo than there are today (at least it seemed like there were), and a surprisingly large number of them employed Filipino bands or local bands working with a Filipino singer. The quality of the music, and the singing in particular, was far above what the local musos could provide. Many of those singers spoke little English and had learned the songs phonetically. But of course a number of them were here on inappropriate visas, and I think that led to a crackdown after which they all but disappeared. I think this was before the "entertainer visa" was introduced.

Anyway, the point is that, although I'm sure there a plenty of Filipinos who can't carry a tune, all of the ones who I heard around town at the time were excellent, if a bit derivative (but I suppose there's no way to not be derivative in a top-40 cover band). It always used to make me wonder whether racial or cultural factors were involved.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

[BigInJapan]

[Stucky]

The article[/URL] (Japanese) speculates on why Koreans might be inherently better singers, pointing out that Japanese has five basic vowel sounds while Korean has twelve. Asari says that he had to develop some specific exercises based on vowel sounds to get his Japanese performers comfortable with the kind of enunciation he needs in his performances.

This kind of thing makes me roll my eyes. As Screwed-down Hairdo says, there is no correlation between nationality and singing ability. Reminds me of the time a Japanese guy explained that the reason his teenage son didn't like spicy food was that his son had been breast fed. So apparently this made him prefer plain-tasting foods. It's hard to hear these things and keep a straight face.

[Mulboyne]

Some people may have some natural singing ability but, by and large, it's still a skill which needs to be learned.

There are plenty of examples of clustering where some populations develop certain skills more readily than others - more through circumstances than genes - so I wouldn't say the idea of some groups being better at singing is a dangerous step towards eugenics.

[Kanchou]

Singing talent is basically just whether or not someones vocal cords shaped in a way that makes them capable of producing a sufficiently wide range of pitches in ways that happen to sound pleasant to human beings.

It's possible that aliens might think the best human singers are totally dreadful, or that they have the vocal range of a .38 Special revolver.

On another note, the fact that 99% of the Japanese language is based on the same five basic sounds (the only exception being n, and occasionally chopped off SU or SHI sounds) with almost zero tone changes probably does have an effect on the ability for Japanese to learn other languages.

[Dragonette]

Singing talent is basically just whether or not someones vocal cords shaped in a way that makes them capable of producing a sufficiently wide range of pitches in ways that happen to sound pleasant to human beings.

Yes, and I don't think it's pro-eugenic to say that.
If ethnicity affects size, skin color, eye shape, leg length - (will the PC thought-police still allow us to say that?) - why is it sedition to think that vocal chords are in that mix? Anyway, it's kind of obvious to anybody with ears.

On another note, the fact that 99% of the Japanese language is based on the same five basic sounds (the only exception being n, and occasionally chopped off SU or SHI sounds) with almost zero tone changes probably does have an effect on the ability for Japanese to learn other languages.

Uh huh! Nihongo may be hard to learn, but I think it's one of the easiest to pronounce, almost like baby-talk, which backfires when they try to pronounce sounds like th, see, and also many dipthongs, There's also a kind of resistance to learning new sounds, eg: for hard th, I've been told "I feel silly putting my tongue between my teeth, so I won't do it"

[Socratesabroad]

Some people may have some natural singing ability but, by and large, it's still a skill which needs to be learned.

Hear, hear.
I couldn't sing if my very life depended on it, and even the exceedingly polite Japanese were knowledgeable enough not to offer me a chance to sing again.

There are plenty of examples of clustering where some populations develop certain skills more readily than others - more through circumstances than genes - so I wouldn't say the idea of some groups being better at singing is a dangerous step towards eugenics.

And you haven't even touched on culture, which may encourage vocal tradition (singing, history, storytelling) in some locales over written tradition.

why is it sedition to think that vocal chords are in that mix? Anyway, it's kind of obvious to anybody with ears.

Uh huh! Nihongo may be hard to learn, but I think it's one of the easiest to pronounce, almost like baby-talk, which backfires when they try to pronounce sounds

Again, I concur based on my first-hand experience living in both Japan and now China for some 15 years now.
I've met a few Japanese who speak a little Chinese, but most have extreme trouble with the range of pronunciations. The only Japanese I've met who speak Chinese acceptably had mixed J-C parentage or a similar long-standing tie to China.
Like singing, which is language in musical form, one need only look to acting. The vast dearth of J actors/actresses who make it big outside of Japan is in sharp contrast to the non-martial arts actors/actresses from all around Asia who done quite well worldwide (Oz, Hollywood, Europe).

This whole story reeks of social Darwinism in the vein of nihonjinron, even if it "concedes" (shock, horror) that Koreans may be innately better than Japanese at something.
Nationality, I'm fairly sure, has fuck all to do with whether someone is a good singer.

Nationality may have little to do with singing (or acting, for that matter) but pronunciation does. Japanese's limited range of sounds puts those who speak only that language at a definite disadvantage compared to speakers of languages with a greater range of sounds, a view that is a far, far cry from racist or ethnically bigoted (SdH, Social Darwinism was not the correct term; the a propos -ism would be 'cultural exceptionalism').

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Time to defend my honor because this thread was getting on my goat (Actually, Greji got in there first, but you know what I mean....)
I stand by my case in the following areas:
1) Nationality means fuck-all. There are good singers and bad singers regardless of native language and there are shitloads of exceptional Japanese singers (who must have shown extraordinary dedication and application to match the innately better Koreans). Mulboyne's argument about clusters is fair...but the punter in the story is talking about "Chinese," "Koreans" and "Japanese." I wouldn't call either of these three groups "clusters." Culturally, some places may sing more than others, but I would suggest this is more a matter of training than anything congenital.
2) Nihonjinron is Social Darwinism. I almost agreed with you Socrates, but couldn't bring myself to do it. Nihonjinron stems from prewar eugenics teaching and one of its tenets is the implied superiority of the Yamato race, and racial superiority is one of the fundamental aspects of Social Darwinism. Although experience has taught me to know it's absolutely true the Yamato are a master race and, as a gaijin, I am inherently unable to understand the Japanese entirely, the scientific side of me (and there's not much) tends to say it's a load of bullshite.

[Yokohammer]

... and there are shitloads of exceptional Japanese singers ...

In non-traditional (i.e. not enka, minyo, etc.) genres?
Name three and I'll check 'em out.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Taro Ichihara
Yoko-Maria Tsukuda
Yoko Watanabe

[Yokohammer]

Taro Ichihara
Yoko-Maria Tsukuda
Yoko Watanabe

All opera/classical! Kind of what I expected, but why is that?
Why is it that Japan can produce world-class talent in the classical arts but almost none in popular idioms?

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

All opera/classical! Kind of what I expected, but why is that?

Actually, I chose them deliberately because they are/were opera singers as it's the form of popular music I'd say was generally considered to be the most difficult and demanding in terms of what can be done with the voice.

Why is it that Japan can produce world-class talent in the classical arts but almost none in popular idioms?

They haven't really needed to, but there have been hits here and there down through the years.

My point is becoming muddied, allow me to reaffirm it: Judging someone on their singing ability because of their nationality is utter bullshite and based on psuedo-science so rampant here.

[Yokohammer]

Actually, I chose them deliberately because they are/were opera singers as it's the form of popular music I'd say was generally considered to be the most difficult and demanding in terms of what can be done with the voice.

No argument there. And there are some fine Japanese operatic singers to be sure. However ...

They haven't really needed to, but there have been hits here and there down through the years.

If money and fame are motivating forces (and you know damn well they are) then they most certainly have needed to. If fact they have tried oh-so-hard but failed to succeed in any notable way. There have been a few one-off novelty hits (the "Sukiyaki Song" comes to mind), but no sustained success. A few acts are geek-popular in the sense that Pockemon is popular, but nothing real.

My point is becoming muddied, allow me to reaffirm it: Judging someone on their singing ability because of their nationality is utter bullshite and based on psuedo-science so rampant here.

I'll accept this if you change "nationality" to "race." But since "nationality" includes language, upbringing, education, customs, artistic focus ... etc etc ... and anything else that might affect musical proclivity and training, I'll have to argue that nationality can make a difference.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

If money and fame are motivating forces (and you know damn well they are) then they most certainly have needed to...A few acts are geek-popular in the sense that Pockemon is popular, but nothing real.

I absolutely refuse to believe that anybody in the music business could possibly be in it for the money, let alone the fame. The idea is utterly inconceivable:p You're absolutely right that nobody has achieved sustained popularity on any noteworthy scale]I'll accept this if you change "nationality" to "race." But since "nationality" includes language, upbringing, education, customs, artistic focus ... etc etc ... and anything else that might affect musical proclivity and training, I'll have to argue that nationality can make a difference.[/QUOTE]
Ah ha! We come down to semantics...I agree with you entirely that nationality can make a difference, but it is not the difference as the punter was implying. But I can't say race because he was only referring to different nationalities within the same race.

God I wish I could make money out of music....unfortunately, I sing like a squawking raven and the only instrument I can play is the fart organ...

[tidbits]

[IparryU]

I learned some of this in Uni studying Engineering...

Music is directly related to math/numbers as it is just a frequency of sound.

opera singers have the widest range of sounds as their tone and pitch vary across the spectrum that humans can physically put out. Note that only some humans are able to physically do so as it has a lot to do with your vocal cords (DESPITE practice)

So when you take into account the amount of sounds one can imitate, this would directly relate to how you sound (obviously)

with math, if you speak a language that only has 200 sounds, you are limited to the amount of combination hence the range you can put out.

if you have 500 sounds you can make, the combination is obviously more.

singing is just changing the sounds' pitch and tone... so the more sounds you can make will technically make a better variety sound (DESPITE how popular the song will be or is).

sound vs color:
if you were transform the values of sound and turn it into color, opera would have thousands of colors where rap (old school w/o so man instrumentals) and country music (hick on a guitar) would be dull.

Techno, opera, and various types of rock and roll would be a much more colorful picture as the frequency and amplitude have a much more vast range (i.e. voice range, amount of instruments, amount of generated sounds, etc.).

tested out with MatLab, a DSP, MSPaint, a sound recorder, and iTunes/WMP.

Having said so, the human with lest capability of sounds (Japanese) would have less skill than someone that has more sounds (Korean)... DESPITE NATURAL TALENT AND POPULARITY.