Radical difference between East and West regarding marriage

[ramchop]

About father having bath with their children. Where I come from, it's unacceptable already after about 5 years old.

How is it even possible in Japan?, the baths are tiny.

[Maciamo]

About father having bath with their children. Where I come from, it's unacceptable already after about 5 years old.

How is it even possible in Japan?, the baths are tiny.

Good question ! That includes onsen. Well, evn if few people have big jacuzi, the particularity of Japanese ofuro is that all the bathroom can be used as a big shower-bath. I am almost 1m90 and can enter in the tub with my wife, so 3 Japanese (especiallu if 2 are kids) should fit in too.

[Maciamo]

I have been to France (all over), so what was it that you found so different about Australia? I really liked France, but I did not like Paris as much as I liked rural France.

Well it's nothing to do with the sighseeing. stayed in an Australian host family and studied a few months in a Aussie school. The mentality was so incompatible. So many cultural misunderstandings. I had been exchange student in Germany before and I didn't have these problems. I went to Italy and Spain after, and now live in Japan, but the toughest was Australia. It's probably because it was the countryside, but I found that the people were so narrow-minded and "Australia-centered". They didn't care about the rest of the world, and I couldn't make a signle comparison with my country without them accusing me of criticising Australia. Can you believe that. It was comments like "oh the Eucalyptus trees are so high !", "Wow, it's the first time I see a river dried up !" or "those huge hunterspiders are really scary (when I got one in the bathroom and another in the toilet ). They would just say "if you don't like it you didn't have to come to Australia", while I was even complaining. People there usually got shocked for anything I said. Maybe they thought I was judging when I was only analysing or comparing (neutrally). The boys at school only cared about fighting and insulting each others. Whenever I asked some "intellectual" questions about the history of Oz, politics, etc. they would stare at me saying they had no idea what I was talking about.

My image of the place were I was is that people were incredibly low-brow and closed to the world. Even news on TV were mainly local, then nationawide, but there wasn't much about "overseas". I guess there are places like that in the States too (where rednecks live), but for someone raised in the French culture and way of thinking, this is the worst one can expect. Education and culture are already considered more important in Europe than in the States or Australia in general, but among Europeans, French are those with the highest intellectual standards, especially in the arts, literature and the humanities (history, philosophy...). So Australia was the biggest culture-shock.

[GomiGirl]

Ah the countryside.. was it hinterland or far inland??? Culture is very different in different parts - did you stay in a city as well or just the country?

Would have to agree with you as it is hard to live in a country town.

[Alcazar]

Well it's nothing to do with the sightseeing. Stayed in an Australian host family and studied a few months in a Aussie school. The mentality was so incompatible. So many cultural misunderstandings. I had been exchange student in Germany before and I didn't have these problems. I went to Italy and Spain after, and now live in Japan, but the toughest was Australia. It's probably because it was the countryside, but I found that the people were so narrow-minded and "Australia-centered". They didn't care about the rest of the world, and I couldn't make a single comparison with my country without them accusing me of criticising Australia. Can you believe that. It was comments like "oh the Eucalyptus trees are so high!", "Wow, it's the first time I see a river dried up !" or "Those huge hunterspiders are really scary (when I got one in the bathroom and another in the toilet ). They would just say "if you don't like it you didn't have to come to Australia", while I was even complaining. People there usually got shocked for anything I said. Maybe they thought I was judging when I was only analysing or comparing (neutrally). The boys at school only cared about fighting and insulting each others. Whenever I asked some "intellectual" questions about the history of Oz, politics, etc. they would stare at me saying they had no idea what I was talking about.

My image of the place were I was is that people were incredibly low-brow and closed to the world. Even news on TV were mainly local, then nationwide, but there wasn't much about "overseas". I guess there are places like that in the States too (where rednecks live), but for someone raised in the French culture and way of thinking, this is the worst one can expect. Education and culture are already considered more important in Europe than in the States or Australia in general, but among Europeans, French are those with the highest intellectual standards, especially in the arts, literature and the humanities (history, philosophy...). So Australia was the biggest culture-shock.

I'm not really that suprised about your experience, I don't think the ordinary Australian focuses very much on intellectual issues. Maybe this is why Australians are very much like Americans-average Australians are interested in parochial issues.

Australians are very focused on sport and making money these days-either through shares when the market is good or as now, through participating in the property market. The highest rating TV shows are all about home renovation and property development with an aim to make money.

Maybe it also depends on where you were in Australia. I know about the anti-intellectualism, if you are really into abstract ideas about philosophical and political concepts as I am, you can be intellectually isolated outside a certain group of people. Also you might have found your experience tougher because people can be somewhat prejudiced against the French for their historically recorded, world famous snobbery and ill-founded arrogance.

However having a society that is not focused on intellectual issues the whole time as a whole is no great impediment to development or good policy-there is an intellectual elite in Australia which sets the economic and political agenda in the face of public ignorance. But this is the same in all nations. Australians are not any less intelligent than the French, they just have different priorities.


Alcazar

[Maciamo]

Ah the countryside.. was it hinterland or far inland??? Culture is very different in different parts - did you stay in a city as well or just the country?

Would have to agree with you as it is hard to live in a country town.

That was in Victoria, about 3h by car from Melbourne. Really the country.

[GomiGirl]

I'm not really that suprised about your experience, I don't think the ordinary Australian focuses very much on intellectual issues.

My friends and I call them the "Westfield Cows" - ie dumb as cattle but spend all their time in surburban shopping malls wearing thongs (footwear). Yes there a heap of them and I am sure if Governor Ishihara was Australian, he would be elected into politics by similar landslides he has enjoyed in Japan.

People who think have it hard where-ever they go.. but if you hang around long enough you are able to find like-minded people. Intellectual elite sounds a bit too snooty, but there are certainly fewer people who bother to consider the world around them and the implications of actions. The average person is really only concerned about family, death and taxes but are they any more or less happy than somebody who is more aware?

What I mean is: Is an ignorant person aware they are ignorant? If so, do they care? Are only thinking people able to identify an ignorant person?

[Alcazar]

My friends and I call them the "Westfield Cows" - ie dumb as cattle but spend all their time in surburban shopping malls wearing thongs (footwear). Yes there a heap of them and I am sure if Governor Ishihara was Australian, he would be elected into politics by similar landslides he has enjoyed in Japan.

Tell me about it, I hate shopping malls-the 'Cultural centre' for some people-sad and infuriating, but I guess the world needs consumers!.....

People who think have it hard where-ever they go.. but if you hang around long enough you are able to find like-minded people. Intellectual elite sounds a bit too snooty, but there are certainly fewer people who bother to consider the world around them and the implications of actions. The average person is really only concerned about family, death and taxes but are they any more or less happy than somebody who is more aware?

I think average people can be happier in some ways because ignorance is bliss, but then again they may be frustrated because they may find themselves less in control of their lives for reasons they cannot fathom.

What I mean is: Is an ignorant person aware they are ignorant? If so, do they care? Are only thinking people able to identify an ignorant person?

Good points. I think ignorant people can know they are ignorant, but obviously don't care otherwise they would make an effort to enlighten themselves. For example, I am ignorant of many things to do with cars and sports, I know this, but I don't care that I am ignorant about these topics because I don't deem them to be important.

Maybe people who don't care about 'high end' intellectual issues are like this-they feel that abstract ideas don't really affect them, when in reality they really do-in the abstract! To most people, these ideas in the abstract are not important because you can't sell them or eat them.

Also, it is a mistake of some 'thinking people' to throw around the term 'ignorance' at the drop of a hat. Often the accusation of 'ignorance' is used by some who simply want to put down others who do not agree with them.


Alcazar

[GomiGirl]

Also, it is a mistake of some 'thinking people' to throw around the term 'ignorance' at the drop of a hat. Often the accusation of 'ignorance' is used by some who simply want to put down others who do not agree with them.

Excellent point!!

[Maciamo]

What I mean is: Is an ignorant person aware they are ignorant? If so, do they care?

Why do you think "blissfully" and "ignorant" collocate so strongly ?

I would feel miserable without "thinking", but that's surely a matter of personality (and IQ, it is said, as whizz kids thirst for knowledge from a very young age...)

[Maciamo]

For example, I am ignorant of many things to do with cars and sports, I know this, but I don't care that I am ignorant about these topics because I don't deem them to be important.

Same as me. Though I used to be interested in some sports and in cars till about 15 years old.

Maybe people who don't care about 'high end' intellectual issues are like this-they feel that abstract ideas don't really affect them, when in reality they really do-in the abstract! To most people, these ideas in the abstract are not important because you can't sell them or eat them.

Good point. Maybe it's due to a different brain sensitivity (e.g. to testosterone), or how much each lobe is developed, which could explain why some qualities, talents or interest run in families to a certain extent.

[GomiGirl]

Good point. Maybe it's due to a different brain sensitivity (e.g. to testosterone), or how much each lobe is developed, which could explain why some qualities, talents or interest run in families to a certain extent.

But also exposure.. there are the rare people who have an inherent thirst for knowledge and they would be able to educate themselves in a vacuum (ever seen the movie "Matilda"?)

But for regular folks I really think it is nurture rather than nature - which is why I am a firm believer that to appreciate where you are from you really need to get out and see the world first hand rather than using imagination or *eek* movies to show you how things are outside your natural habitat.

The more you are exposed to the world and different people and different places and ideas, the more aware you are and appreciative of diversity. Also you are less afraid of being introduced to new ideas etc.

People are more aware in some families more than others as they live in the same environment. Personally I don't think it is a genetic trait. I know some pretty smart people who are completely ignorant and narrow minded. But I have no evidence to back this up - it is just opinion.

Testostone?? what has that got to do with it?

[Naniwan Kid]

Education and culture are already considered more important in Europe than in the States or Australia in general, but among Europeans, French are those with the highest intellectual standards, especially in the arts, literature and the humanities (history, philosophy...). So Australia was the biggest culture-shock

I have never heard a more uneducatated statement in my life. I think that you need to realize that the French NEED their surroundings to survive. For all intents and purposes, Japan is an island. Australia is an island. America is (almost) an island. France NEEDS their surroundings to survive.

Pardon me, but you come off as a real prick with the above statement (and I was on your side earlier). To generalize entire continents in that way compared to France (which is the size of Texas) sounds petty and pissy. I don't want to get into a pissing war, and you don't either.[/quote]

[Maciamo]

But also exposure.. there are the rare people who have an inherent thirst for knowledge and they would be able to educate themselves in a vacuum (ever seen the movie "Matilda"?)

Ok, not in a vacuum. They need to learn the language, etc at first. Personally, I've always learned by myself before being taught at school (that's why I've always found school boring and "slow"). My parents didn't teach me much of my knowledge and anyway, once I liked something, I very quickly knew much more than them (ot the teachers at school).

But for regular folks I really think it is nurture rather than nature...

People are more aware in some families more than others as they live in the same environment. Personally I don't think it is a genetic trait.

Both are important. Look at some families with several children, but where only one of them is really an intellecual. I know lots of such cases.

Testostone?? what has that got to do with it?

Testosterone influence the gender speciality of the brain. It increases spatial skills abilities (which is why men usually have a better sense of direction than women, or are better at ball games or parking a car backward), logical thinking (always more male students in sciences and engineering, even though females are free to join too). Even with the same testosterone level, not all men have the same affinities or skills above. That is due to the sensitivity of each cerebral zone to testosterone, as well as the density of neurons in each area. I think it's as important to consider than the environment. Both nature and nurture have their role and it's pointless to deny either's influence.

[GomiGirl]

Maciamo.. Books by Allan Pease are only meant to be read as entertainment and not as scientific texts.

[Maciamo]

Education and culture are already considered more important in Europe than in the States or Australia in general, but among Europeans, French are those with the highest intellectual standards, especially in the arts, literature and the humanities (history, philosophy...). So Australia was the biggest culture-shock

I have never heard a more uneducatated statement in my life. I think that you need to realize that the French NEED their surroundings to survive. For all intents and purposes, Japan is an island. Australia is an island. America is (almost) an island. France NEEDS their surroundings to survive.

Yes, they need the surrounding, so what ? These are economical considerations. Nothing to do with how interested people are in history or literature.

Pardon me, but you come off as a real prick with the above statement (and I was on your side earlier). To generalize entire continents in that way compared to France (which is the size of Texas) sounds petty and pissy. I don't want to get into a pissing war, and you don't either.

First, I am not French (which may be important in this discussion) and have never lived in France. I was raised in French, but I've lived in 5 European countries (UK, Belgium, Germany, Italy, Spain). France is maybe the size of Texas, but it's population is twice that of Canada, 3,5 times that of Australia, or else almost 1/4 of the US. I still don't see what this has to do with academic requirements and culture. To get a normal job in France, it's normal to have studied 4 or 5 years at university. If you want a good job, 7 to 10 years isn't too much.

French count degree of education as BAC+ x (number of years at university). BAC means "high school diploma" and is the basis to start studying (except if you want to become supermarket cashier, then it's enough). Nowhere else in the EU, and even less English-speaking countries outside that, do people study so long as in France in average. I find this system completely stupid as people might study 5 years chemistry + 2 years economics, but end up with the same job as an American with 3-year degree, just becasue society is more exigent. To teach English to foreigners (in Europe), one can get a CELTA (Certificate in English Language Teaching to Adults) in just one month. To teach French, the French govern has set the minimum requirement to a 4-year university degree in French literature (for French native speakers, don't even think of a non native teaching French).

So I am not saying that the French system is better, but it is certainly more demanding and therefore French should be better educated, more knowledgeable or "cultured" than most other nationalities. That doesn't make them more intelligent, or effective or friendly. Certainly more snobbish, arrogant, elitist or whatever... but at least you understand why it is so now. Learning and being cultured (know your classics of literature, be able to discuss any topic, enjoy old French theater, and being able to recognise baroque style from neoclassical, or know the titles of the major operas...) is considered important in France. I don't think most Americans or Australians find it so important. But they play more sport and no how to make money. That's just a cultural difference. Not judging, just stating.

[Maciamo]

Maciamo.. Books by Allan Pease are only meant to be read as entertainment and not as scientific texts.

I doubled checked in the Scientific American Book of the Brain and other serious sources.

[cstaylor]

...Wineries in France (and I think this rule is for the entire E.U.) are really hurting these days against California and Austrialian brands, because they have to follow very strict rules when making their wine, resulting in wines that are inconsistent. For someone into wines, that's great, but the far larger group of the alcohol buying public prefers consistent quality. Consequently, people buy less French wine...

[Maciamo]

[quote="cstaylor"]...Wineries in France (and I think this rule is for the entire E.U.) are really hurting these days against California and Austrialian brands, because they have to follow very strict rules when making their wine, resulting in wines that are inconsistent. For someone into wines, that's great, but the far larger group of the alcohol buying public prefers consistent quality. Consequently, people buy less French wine... ]

Depends in which country. In Japan or the US, French wines are expensive anyhow. In Europe, Californian or Austrlian import are quite expensive. It's possible to find cheap "table wine" for 1$/liter in France. In many restaurants, they serve wine for free (like water). So everything is relative. Not all French wine are expensive.

[cstaylor]

It's possible to find cheap "table wine" for 1$/liter in France.

I'm glad you put that in quotes, because bulk wine is NOT wine... it's grapes mixed with sugar, and it shows.

I wasn't talking about price anyways, but brand awareness. I have a set of California wines that I puchase every year for my Japanese friends because (a) I know they like it and (b) I know it will taste the same every year.

[maraboutslim]

I have a set of California wines that I puchase every year for my Japanese friends because (a) I know they like it and (b) I know it will taste the same every year.

That doesn't sound like fun to me. That sounds like an overmanaged wine, probably a blend, with additives during the process. Because of weather, grapes themselves will differ from year to year. Wine should be made with grapes that will provide an alcohol content of 12.5%. If the grapes don't make it to that level in a certain year, then wineries can add sugar. It's called "chaptalizing" and it's illegal in France. (just like adding rice, ala japan, or corn, ala america, is illegal in beer making in Germany). Since sugar content decides how much other "flavors" are masked in the wine, the % of alcohol in a natural wine will change the overall taste.

Most years French grapes will have no trouble producing optimum sugar but if they don't and the wine is a little different that year, then such is life. This does produce subtle differences in taste from year to year. That's one of the enjoyable things about wine. In my book...

-Slim

[cstaylor]

Most years French grapes will have no trouble producing optimum sugar but if they don't and the wine is a little different that year, then such is life. This does produce subtle differences in taste from year to year. That's one of the enjoyable things about wine. In my book...

I agree, but then they make inconsistent gifts... I'd say for a majority of the casual wine consumers, consistency is probably their biggest gripe about wine. I can take a can of Kirin and know it will taste the same as the can I drank last year.

The article I read was in the New York Times earlier this year, about French wines having trouble in the export market due to price and inconsistent taste between seasons.

[Maciamo]

I agree, but then they make inconsistent gifts... I'd say for a majority of the casual wine consumers, consistency is probably their biggest gripe about wine. I can take a can of Kirin and know it will taste the same as the can I drank last year.

What I find fun with French wines is to study what year is good for each region (Bordeaux, Bourgogne, Cote du Rhone, Loire...) or type of wine (red, dry white, sweet white, sparkling, rose...). It's easy to find tables with "marks" from 1 to 10. For example, if you check "red Bordeaux in 1988", the mark will be high (9 or 10). Don't need to be a specialist to remember a few years for your favorite kind of wine. It makes you sound more intelligent at the restaurant when you say that the Bordeaux "87" is probably nothing as good as the "88" or "89", except if it's a white one.

[cstaylor]

Maybe we should open a new topic about this? I'm always interested in learning more about wines.

[ramchop]

I'd say for a majority of the casual wine consumers, consistency is probably their biggest gripe about wine. I can take a can of Kirin and know it will taste the same as the can I drank last year.

Kirin makes wine?
And it comes in cans?

[cstaylor]

Dude, I was up late last night, and I made a poor transition. What I *should* have said is "Take beer for example: I can take a can of Kirin and know it will taste the same as the can I drank last year."

How is Australian wine? I've never tried any.

[Taro Toporific]

I'd say for a majority of the casual wine consumers, consistency is probably their biggest gripe about wine. I can take a can of Kirin and know it will taste the same as the can I drank last year.

Kirin makes wine?
And it comes in cans?

Kirin Brewery Co nee Lion Nathan nee Petaluma

Bloomberg - 6 Aug 2003
Wine sales rose 8 percent in its third quarter ended June 30, the Sydney-based ... Shares of Lion Nathan...owned by Japan's Kirin Brewery Co ...

[cliffy]

Ah the countryside.. was it hinterland or far inland??? Culture is very different in different parts - did you stay in a city as well or just the country?

Would have to agree with you as it is hard to live in a country town.

That was in Victoria, about 3h by car from Melbourne. Really the country.

Give me a Town name please, I grew up in Victoria about three hours from Melbourne, shit everywhere is about three hours from Melbourne or thereabouts . No hassels just curious I never fit into the mindset of my hometown myself .

[Maciamo]

Give me a Town name please, I grew up in Victoria about three hours from Melbourne, shit everywhere is about three hours from Melbourne or thereabouts . No hassels just curious I never fit into the mindset of my hometown myself .

Do you know Albury-Wodonga or Wangarata ? This area.

[Kurofune]

I'd be careful about pressing the casual conversations you've had with the Japanese into a reliable survey of the people. As with people back home, people here tend to see their situations through experiential blinders, or at least rose-colored glasses. Also, some Japanese are careful when speaking about intimate things with foreigners because they don't want to say anything that will cause them, or sometimes you, to lose face.

In my nine years here, I've met plenty of men who fit the drunk, carousing salaryman stereotype. I've also met men who loved their wives and children and made a point of spending quality time with them. Every society has its tendencies, but don't let that get in the way of your giving people a chance to be themselves. Otherwise, you'll start sounding like those people who try to start a conversation with you by asking if you can eat Japanese food.