Shocking Wikileaks Revelation - NJR

[Mike Oxlong]

[yt]WHfYtvYRgdk[/yt]

[Coligny]

And as usual... them taiwanese got all funky:

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[Mike Oxlong]

I think the report Chomsky mentioned that there is a higher level of cancers and related conditions in Fallujah than appeared in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is pretty damn interesting...

[Mulboyne]

[yt]WHfYtvYRgdk[/yt]

He's talking about last summer's leaks. That revelation did get coverage in Europe but I remember seeing this video back then and US media outlets hadn't mentioned it.

[Greji]

I think the report Chomsky mentioned that there is a higher level of cancers and related conditions in Fallujah than appeared in Hiroshima and Nagasaki is pretty damn interesting...

It probably would be if it were other than Chomsky. He is so into his various agenda's that insignificant things like to the actual facts never seem to bother him.

Relating a story by a couple of Doctors (?) who in a couple of days, duplicated exhausting studies that have been done over many, many years at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, and determined the results were higher? All this amongst the "horrific war crimes" by the US

Gee, I wonder what is he insinuating? In the long term, that is probably more interesting than the truth on the incident....

[Mulboyne]

It probably would be if it were other than Chomsky...

It's not Chomsky's report. The full document is available in PDF format here. I don't have the expertise to judge its findings but, if the survey results are anywhere near accurate, then something must have triggered the increase in cancer.

(EDIT: The report wasn't a Wikileak, by the way. It was made public just before the Wikileaks summer revelations. Chomsky was arguing in his interview even publicly available information can go under-reported)

[Greji]

It's not Chomsky's report. The full document is available in PDF format here. I don't have the expertise to judge its findings but, if the survey results are anywhere near accurate, then something must have triggered the increase in cancer.

It is indeed an interesting read. But, it does read a bit alarmist considering the writers were not doing "hands-on" medical research and essentially only evaluating the results of a survey. The passage ".....We thank also Abdulmunaem Almula and Eva Ehrstedt and the members of the team in Fallujah who obtained the results and to all of those individuals who answered the questionnaires. None of us have any conflicts of interest...." strikes a bit of a question as to the validity of what they were prefacing in the study, as well as it's accuracy. But, who can tell.

It would seem that such information should have peaked interest in other elements of the medical/research communities. Even the military would be interested if such results were indicated. Maybe it's just to early....

[Level3]

But there's the special pleading to excuse themselves from actually doing the stats on cause of death in Section 2.4

Summed up, they claim some parents are embarrassed to admit to birth defects due to culture, but have no such embarrassment just saying if a child died or not, therefore, causes of death were not tabulated in the survey. (apparently not even from those who did give the cause of death information?)

WTF?

It's the whole point of the study, and there is no medical data, your only data IS the survey, and you choose to not survey (or worse, ignore the results that you did get, perhaps because they were inconvenient) on cause of death?

Their claim that the male-female ratio has been affected is dodgy as well. They made a table of the data, but only showed the calculated ratios for the youngest groups. The variation in the last 5 years seems pretty typical compared to the variation in the entire set, if you bother to do the math yourself. They only do the math for you for 3 other age groups with male bias, and leave the other age groups blank. Why? Yes, wars and soldiers' deaths would explain some of this, though why the ratio keeps fluctuating from about 0.8 - 1.2 warrants more investigation.

I'm just as suspicious of depleted uranium as the next guy, but this study is lacking, to say the least.

[Greji]

I'm just as suspicious of depleted uranium as the next guy, but this study is lacking, to say the least.

You said quickly and accurately what I've tried to say in about three posts. The fact that the number of deaths may be overstated, or the opposite, understated and the number is far more.

I just found it a poor way to present their results with the implications that it was a "medical" study.

I am also curious about depleted uranium as I know little to nothing about it.

[Kuang_Grade]

I find it interesting that they fail to mention if depleted uranium was actually used in Fallujah....
From the first paragraph

In 2004, one year after the end of the second Persian Gulf War in March 2003 there was heavy fighting between US led occupation troops and Iraqi elements in this town. Little is known about the types of weapons deployed, but reports began to emerge after 2005 of a sudden increase in cancer and leukaemia rates

Unless "Iraqi elements" were using tanks, there wouldn't be much call for depleted uranium rounds. That's not to say they weren't used in 2004, but from what I've read, most of the DU ammo was used at the start of the war when the US was looking for armored units to kill, not during the occupation when they were effectively fighting just infantry level forces.

Also they failed to mention if the survey data was scrubbed for geographical issues (ie, were they actually in Fallujah for the last 5 years or did they just move into town six months ago from somewhere else and their child actually died in another town), but then beg that off saying even if they moved in six months ago, it shows the minimum base levels (part 2.3) for the "sample population". But if your thesis is that something is happening in Fallujah, it is kind of important that the population be in Fallujah for some period of time. But then they also blow off looking at pre-2004 cancer rates (2.6) as well

The national cancer rates in Iraq are not currently available; use of earlier Iraq cancer rates would bias the results since the whole country has been affected by post-war contamination following the 1991 and 2003 conflicts to various putative carcinogens, including oil fires, heavy metals and uranium from weapons.

Yeah, it would certainly suck to look at older, likely much more solid, data to establish some sort of baseline for the overall Iraqi population when looking at tiny sample with iffy survey controls based in a single city . Also apparently DU from old wars doesn't count, esp since its half life a few billion years apparently wouldn't make a difference over time.

[Tsuru]

You said quickly and accurately what I've tried to say in about three posts. The fact that the number of deaths may be overstated, or the opposite, understated and the number is far more.

I just found it a poor way to present their results with the implications that it was a "medical" study.

I am also curious about depleted uranium as I know little to nothing about it.

Depleted uranium is obtained from spent nuclear fuel when all the fissible U235 in the rods is used up and only U238 and some other materials remain. The department for defence obtains it at little to no cost from the department of energy as it's technically nuclear waste. It's used to increase projectile weight and muzzle energy in tank shells and MG bullets, as uranium has a very high atomic weight and has some other favourable characteristics for penetrating armor.

Regardless of how credible this research might be, direct links between increases of leukaemia and other cancers and increases in ambient radioactivity are notoriously difficult to prove, but walking around with a geigercounter in some parts of southern Iraq and cities like Falluja should tell you everything you should know.

Your "vehicle" back in the day was not fitted with a cannon IIRC.... or did you fly the "E" as well?

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Depleted uranium is obtained from spent nuclear fuel when all the fissible U235 in the rods is used up and only U238 and some other materials remain. The department for defence obtains it at little to no cost from the department of energy as it's technically nuclear waste. It's used to increase projectile weight and muzzle energy in tank shells and MG bullets, as uranium has a very high atomic weight and has some other favourable characteristics for penetrating armor.

Nothing like a little nuclear physics first thing in the morning....

[Level3]

:shock: Nothing like a little nuclear physics first thing in the morning....

Wasn't that what the pilot of the Enola Gay said?

Too soon?

[sublight]

What Tsuru said. DU is extremely dense (two thirds more than lead, and just below gold), which lowers aerodynamic drag on shells to increase penetration. DU is also a self-sharpening material, meaning that when a shell breaks apart upon hitting armor, the pieces still remain capable of further penetration. In addition, DU can spontaneously ignite in air when ground to dust (such as when a bullet or shell gets pulverized) adding further damage to targets. It's density also makes it suitable for tank armor, usually sandwiched between layers of steel or ceramics.

Ironically enough, one of its civilian uses is as radiation shielding. It was also used for a while (up through the 1970s or so) for counterweights in commercial aircraft, but was largely discontinued after concerns over environmental contamination from crashes (not to mention safety concerns over that whole "spontaneously ignites in air" thing).

[Greji]

Your "vehicle" back in the day was not fitted with a cannon IIRC.... or did you fly the "E" as well?

No, it wasn't and the only chance you had to hit anything with the "E" was by luck, or your guy hung the pod backward by mistake.....


I was well aware of the uses of depleted Uranium, but did not know the residual effects. Thanks....

[Greji]

:shock: Nothing like a little nuclear physics first thing in the morning....

Is that like taking a double shot of Ex-lax Extreme when you get up?

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Holy fuck, I've just fallen head over heels in love with McTojo. If it wasn't for that fat fuck, I'd be the stupidest person on FG by a long way (instead of being in at least a neck-and-neck race with the moped-riding, bosozoku, psuedo-Numidian Nazi).

[Yokohammer]

Holy fuck, I've just fallen head over heels in love with McTojo. If it wasn't for that fat fuck, I'd be the stupidest person on FG by a long way (instead of being in at least a neck-and-neck race with the moped-riding, bosozoku, psuedo-Numidian Nazi).

I can't find any McT posts in this thread.
Not that it matters, any McT post will have that effect.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I can't find any McT posts in this thread.
Not that it matters, any McT post will have that effect.

Sorry, I'm just gobsmacked by how many brainy folks there are around here.
I used McTojo because he's my only rival for dumbest cunt on the site....

[BigInJapan]

I can't find any McT posts in this thread.
Not that it matters, any McT post will have that effect.

I think he may have posted something a little dumber than usual (I know, hard to believe) as the mods will take action when something is too objectionable (or doesn't meet the site guidelines).

[Yokohammer]

Sorry, I'm just gobsmacked by how many brainy folks there are around here.
I used McTojo because he's my only rival for dumbest cunt on the site....

God I hope you don't really believe that. You're well-read, erudite, funny as heck (sometimes in ingenious ways) ... and your grammar is pretty darn good too.

Don't even think of lowering yourself to that level.

[Socratesabroad]

It's not Chomsky's report. The full document is available in PDF format here. I don't have the expertise to judge its findings but, if the survey results are anywhere near accurate, then something must have triggered the increase in cancer.

Suffice it to say, the survey results are total shite. Level 3 et al. have dealt with that so I'll set that aside. A lead author of the report is an activist, politician, and crap scientist named Busby who's apparently notorious for making unwarranted or patently false claims about radiation and its health effects. I'd attach more credibility to an African prostitute who assures me, 'no, I'm totally clean' than I would to anything with Busby's name on it...

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I'd attach more credibility to an African prostitute who assures me, 'no, I'm totally clean' than I would to anything with Busby's name on it...

Now, that's science I can relate to!

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

[quote="Yokohammer"]God I hope you don't really believe that. You're well-read, erudite, funny as heck (sometimes in ingenious ways) ... and your grammar is pretty darn good too. ]

Good Lord, YH. I hope you're not looking for a BJ or something...

[Yokohammer]

Good Lord, YH. I hope you're not looking for a BJ or something...

Curses! Foiled again!

(Er ... no.)

[McTojo]

[quote="Yokohammer"]God I hope you really believe that. McTojo's well-read, erudite, funny as heck (sometimes in ingenious ways) ... and your grammar is pretty darn good too. ]


Thank you for those encouraging words!

[Level3]

What Tsuru said. DU is extremely dense (two thirds more than lead, and just below gold), which lowers aerodynamic drag on shells to increase penetration.

Just to split hairs (rather than atoms) density of the projectile does not affect drag. It affects inertia, or the ability to "resist" the deceleration of drag.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Guess who?
Leaked!

[Yokohammer]

Thank you for those encouraging words!

Keep fantasizing, asshole.
Don't edit my posts or misquote me without making it clear that you have done so.

[Yokohammer]

Thank you for those encouraging words!

One more thing.
In editing my post the way you did you managed to introduce no less than two grammatical errors into one sentence, thus proving my point for me once again.

You figure it out.
You're fucking hopeless.

... DU is extremely dense ...

Not as dense as McTojo.