what materials did/do you use to learn japanese?

[kotatsuneko]

as i'm compliling on and off a book for learning japanese, i'd like to pick your brains and find out what you looked for / couldnt find amongst the titles currently on the shelfs..

if you got a few minutes, could you give me your opinions?

what book / materials did you start off learning japanese from?

did you continue with other titles from the same publisher? if not, why not?

what are the best points of the books / materials you used?

what are the worst / frustrating points?

what are the features or materials that are missing from current titles out there that you would like to see?

would you like to see sections like dialects or omnomatapea in a text book or would you prefer to use an established title dedicated to them?

would you prefer a comprehensive phrase book and a good everyday dictionary or the two combined in the same volume?

do you carry a dictionary with you at most times? if so, which one do you use and why?

what are your thoughts on electronic dictionaries?

would you purchase a guide book for use on a hand held computer?


sorry if this stinks of spam - it isnt, this is the only japan based forum i frequent, and most people here have a lot of experience with the language and the country, so i wanted to get some decent feedback..

i'm a good 2 years away from approaching a publisher, but i only want to do a project of this size once, and want to get it right..

cheers!

[devicenull]

[jingai]

I liked my old tennis partner Akira Miura's Integrated Japanese (chuukyuu nihongo) as it's the best textbook I've used. After that, I'd recommend "Read Real Japanese" by Janet Ashbey, as you get to read essays and don't have to look up kanji or words.

From that point on, I learned Japanese by watching yakuza movies.
http://www.jingai.com/yakuza/

[Andocrates]

"Genki Japanese," demo takai deshita ne! The CD's alone are 18000 en per set (2 sets)

Let's see I also use a Seiko Translator that works OK

Manga are valuble to me, but others don't like them.

Japanese TV too in invaluble.

Trying to talk to Japanese people is pretty much a waste of time. They always treat you like a baby, a gaijin dog and pony show.

"Step right up ladies and gentleman, he walks, he talks, he crawls on his belly like a reptile."

[japslapper]

[kamome]

I used to carry around a Canon Wordtank (for unfamiliar spoken vocabulary) and a Zaurus (for unfamiliar kanji) wherever I went the first time I went to Japan. Those were ok references, but the Wordtank (as well as most other electronic dictionaries) contains quite limited definitions for words. They also have a lot of inaccuracies.

Zauruses are awesome because you can just draw the characters on the screen and have them directly translated for you--albeit with very limited definitions. They're good references while taking a comprehensive course in Japanese from a university or language school and hanging out with friends.

[devicenull]

Remembering the Kanji:
<snip>

hmm, i might give it a second look then. currently i just have the ebook version of it because i like to check out the book before i blow money on it. i might have to abuse some school printers for a few hours next week

[GomiGirl]

Just out of interest Kots, are you planning this to be a romaji only book? I seem to remember that you are not a fan of kana/kanji.

Electronic dictionaries are limited by memory and so will only be good for basics. Doesn't even hold as much as a paper dictionary but is much lighter.

[GomiGirl]

p.s. I have all the resources I need on my keitai!!

[blackcat]

hey Gomi sama.
this keitei resourse thing, I have seen you post this before???
or someone else maybe...anyway could you tell more and hoe much its costs to be online on your keitei???
arigatou.

[Andocrates]

Electronic dictionaries are limited by memory and so will only be good for basics. Doesn't even hold as much as a paper dictionary but is much lighter.

My Electronic dictionary has enough words to keep me busy for the next several years What I really need is a kanji recognition program (where I can draw kanji with a stylus) Anyone know one?

Umm, sorry not a program a device that I could carry in my bookbag.

[devicenull]

Electronic dictionaries are limited by memory and so will only be good for basics. Doesn't even hold as much as a paper dictionary but is much lighter.

My Electronic dictionary has enough words to keep me busy for the next several years What I really need is a kanji recognition program (where I can draw kanji with a stylus) Anyone know one?

Umm, sorry not a program a device that I could carry in my bookbag.

hmm, there is a program for linux that does it. a zaurus should be able to run it without a problem.... not sure what it is called, but it is in the gentoo portage tree somewhere :P

[GomiGirl]

Electronic dictionaries are limited by memory and so will only be good for basics. Doesn't even hold as much as a paper dictionary but is much lighter.

My Electronic dictionary has enough words to keep me busy for the next several years What I really need is a kanji recognition program (where I can draw kanji with a stylus) Anyone know one?

Umm, sorry not a program a device that I could carry in my bookbag.

You are better off with a program that has a map or list of common radicals that you "build-up" an unknown kanji from the parts. Handwriting recognition technology is still not the greatest and you will need to get the stroke order close to perfect for it to recognise the kanji as the algoriths are based on stroke order and not on shape.

I have one for a Mac OS 8-9 (or OS X classic) which is based on a gaiji chart. But there is also a few good radical buildup programs for PDA's and of course TangoTown has both the SKIP method as well as our own "parts chart" and traditional Japanese radical lookup.

Desktop Demo Scroll down to samples to see more. Packet fees will vary depending on use.

For information on SKIP please review Jack Halpern's Kanji Learners Dictionary Kanji Learners Dictionary introducing SKIP

Explanation of SKIP

[gpvillamil]

I am using "Minna no Nihongo" (kana edition) combined with individual lessons 3 or 4 times per week. It's very much in the "immersive", "you figure out the patterns" mold. Best points: Lots of useful everyday situations (though not very colloquial - quite stilted in fact). Worst points: doesn't explain anything.

I have found the "Handbook of Japanese Verbs" and "Japanese Particles" by Naoko Chino very helpful. Contains much more of a clear explanation of how things work. Best points: concise, clear, comprehensive. Worst points - none to speak of. Be nice if it was available in electronic format.

"Making Sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin is priceless. Helped make sense of many things. My spoken Japanese became much better after reading it. It explains useful grammatical points (eg. "wa" vs "ga") in a very clear and sensible way. Best points: Demolishes many myths about learning Japanese, practical, designed for learners. Worst points: (minor) lack of structure?

A friend of mine gave me a Japanese children's encyclopedia for my birthday. Lots of pictures, kanji supertitled with furigana. Nice to browse through to improve vocabulary and practice kana.

I've used Declan Software's stuff for learning kana. Very effective for that. I haven't really done much with the kanji or flashcard software, though it appears good. Best points: comprehensive, good use of multimedia, easy user-interface, focused. Worst points: some bugs & mistakes, no "reference" mode for the kanji learning program.

On my Palm PDA, I am using:

. J-OS for Japanese language input & display (very good fonts)
. KDIC plus several versions of the EDICT dictionary file
. PalmRADIC is a program that builds kanji from radicals, and feeds them to KDIC (you will need the kanji-indexed EDICT file for this)
. PADICT is a standalone dictionary program, with limited vocabulary. However, it does have a handwritten kanji recognizer, and a kana interface useful for learners
. Learn Alpha is a drill and practice program for learning various alphabets. I have it set up for hiragana, katakana, and Cyrillic. Useful for keeping busy in the metro.

Best points: focused on NON-Japanese speakers, portable, comprehensive dictionary, multiple alternative/specialist dictionaries available, cut & paste to other apps, seamless sync to PC (note I'm using EDICT on PC and PDA). Worst points: lack of integration, lack of references re: grammar (eg. verb conjugations), common phrases, limited definitions of kanji esp. alternative readings.

I would definitely be interested in an all-in-one Japanese learners dictionary/language reference in electronic format. The PDA software I have now + some version of the Naoko Chino books, all linked and cross-referenced, would be excellent. Code the whole thing in XML to allow linking to related subjects and porting to multiple devices. Given capabilities of current devices, I don't think memory will be a restriction.

[cstaylor]

I am using "Minna no Nihongo" (kana edition) combined with individual lessons 3 or 4 times per week. It's very much in the "immersive", "you figure out the patterns" mold. Best points: Lots of useful everyday situations (though not very colloquial - quite stilted in fact). Worst points: doesn't explain anything.

Amen to that... I go to language school twice a week with those books... ugh. The worst part is how they combine different language concepts into the same chapter. Have you seen any of the videos?

"Making Sense of Japanese" by Jay Rubin is priceless.

I just ordered a copy on your recommendation. Hopefully this will clear up when to use ga and wa for me (I only understand it in the patterns that I've learned in school).

[tidbits]

I have been using Zaurus since my school days till now. And Minnna no Nihongo was my text book during my 3 kyu lesson in school.

"Making Sense of Japanese" is a very good book, I think any FG(English speaker) who is learning Japanese should read it. I felt at last somebody can explain to me clearly the diffrence between Ga and Wa. (* just think Wa is the same as "As For" )

[GomiGirl]

There is a distinction between learning materials and reference tools.

Most of the PDA/electronic/on-line dictionaries are reference tools and are used to help quickly when you get stuck on a word/kanji.

The books etc are learning materials and will offer grammar etc.

Both of these go hand in hand.. you can't have one without the other if you are trying to improve your language skills.

I have lessons usually every week and have been using Minna-no-nihongo as well as YWCA materials (my teacher is a YWCA teacher) as well as the JLPT prep book. This is for lessons.. now everybody knows what I use for reference tool.s

[devicenull]

the sofware i was talking about is called "KanjiPad"
http://www.gtk.org/~otaylor/kanjipad/

[Jack]

I find that every book adds a different dimension in learning the language. I own almost every book that has been written on learning Japanese including the big kanji dictionary that GG is recommending. Although there is a lot of repetition, I find that I am learning faster when I switch books all the time. I now have two full wide bookshelves of Japanese language books. In addition to reading the books, watching Japanese dramas or movies help you memorize what you learn especially if you hear things that you read in the books. The third effective way that I use is by listening to Japanese music and reading the lyrics at the same time. Fortunately most Japanese CDs include the lyrics book in the jacket and I find it a veru effective way of learning the readings of kanji.

[Andocrates]

There is no substitute for talking either! I learn more by making a blunder then anything else. I got this little frustrated dance routine (think Pee-Wee Herman) I do if they try and finish my sentence - after being subjected to my dance a few times they let me stuggle through it.

[kotatsuneko]

cheers to everyone for the info / opinions!

GG, think i may have mentioned it somewhere here, but the intention is to have a layout like this:

entry in english .... entry in kana.......entry in kanji......entry in romaji

thanks to GG and GP's advice, its so much easier working in excel instead of word..

when i get closer to completion, or when i get some serious time, will look into whether i can rely on a publisher to get the kana/kanji entries done, or whether ill have to find someone myself to do it

there was a food festival in odori koen today, with local specialities from all over japan, and a shambolic bingo sesh brightened up immensely by ms sapporo ^^

[devicenull]

"Genki Japanese," demo takai deshita ne! The CD's alone are 18000 en per set (2 sets)

not if your uni has a local mirror of them and lets you wget over the proxy

[Nagged]

Most difficult part of learning Japanese for me was transitional and intransitional verbs, (I will break the cup vs. the cup will break) The textbook I used at the time didn't explain the difference very well but I was okay after I understood the concept.

Canon Wordtanks are good but I prefer Microsoft Bookshelf because refering to the example sentences assists in confirming the translation is the one you really want. Wordtanks are good when you don't have a computer handy.

Speaking from my own experience, I did not read Kanji for the first few years and this did not hinder me so much, but after I did learn to read the world as I knew it changed in a big way. I still think speaking is far more important, if you can speak, learning to read is very simple.

Changing the subject, I started collecting expressions from regional dialects but gave up because of lack of time. How about writing a book about this?

[Milla]

Hey Nagged,

hope you were able to get up in the morning after that tipple

I use Japanese for busy People published by Kodansha by AJALT and various other books such as the Teach Yourself, plus my bf is a great material source

[kamome]

Most difficult part of learning Japanese for me was transitional and intransitional verbs, (I will break the cup vs. the cup will break)

I think you mean "transitive and intransitive" verbs, and you're right that those are a pretty difficult part of the language to master. I continue to struggle with "mitsukaru" versus "mitsukeru", because sometimes it seems you can use the intransitive even when the sentence intuitively calls for the transitive. In those borderline cases, I'll just say what pops into my head and have the listener correct me if it's wrong.

[Nagged]

Most difficult part of learning Japanese for me was transitional and intransitional verbs, (I will break the cup vs. the cup will break)

I think you mean "transitive and intransitive" verbs, and you're right that those are a pretty difficult part of the language to master. I continue to struggle with "mitsukaru" versus "mitsukeru", because sometimes it seems you can use the intransitive even when the sentence intuitively calls for the transitive. In those borderline cases, I'll just say what pops into my head and have the listener correct me if it's wrong.

Hi Kamome,

Yep. That's what I meant. I was typing with one hand and drinking Chu-Hi with the other (see Milla's post above). Alcohol inteferes with my already dubious thinking processes.

Watch out for low flying aircraft

Milla,

I used Japanese for busy People once upon a time. I think it was prettty good also.

Live long & prosper

[Nagged]

[Ptyx]

I use Nihongo Shoho and Nihongo Chukyu as well, along with a vocabulary book (kanji, kana, meaning from the words used in the nihongo shoho) made by my university.
For the kanjis the Compact Nelson is an excellent dictionary.

[Nagged]

Comic books are also very good, (no, not the pornographic ones). The language level is not so difficult and the words that you do not know are often ones that you should learn to increase your vocabulary.

There is the added advantage that they have furigana for the more difficult kanji also.

[Robato]

I learned more Japanese speaking to actual Japanese peole than I have from any books. Real interaction is the best way in my opinion. Which doesnt really help answer your question with what you want to do.

Maybe you should do some interative multimedia thing instead of a book? This way you can have listening comprehension.....

I also think that the wost thing ever about 99% of all books is that they teach you phrases and dont break down each object in the sentence....people spend countless brain cells on learning phrases that real Japanese people dont say and end up not knowing the true feeling or meaning of them until much later when they actually learn vocabulary.