Chinese Find Japanese Firms to be Uncompetitive Employers

[Mulboyne]

Asahi: Japanese businesses lose out in hiring of top Chinese talent
In the old days, when the Japanese management style helped to push Japan to the top of the economic stratosphere, Japanese corporations often laughed at the inefficient operations of their Chinese counterparts. But now, as fast-growing China is set to overtake Japan as the world's second-largest economy, Japanese companies find themselves near the bottom of the pecking order in terms of hiring in China. The most talented Chinese are flocking to Chinese, U.S. and European companies that offer higher wages and better chances for promotion than Japanese companies. Other skilled workers are fleeing their Japanese employers for more promising futures at Chinese firms. And even Japanese workers, who could be regarded as the new "cheap labor" in China, are turning to foreign companies...One female student in Tsinghua's MBA program worked for Mitsui & Co.'s local operations and then for Toyota Motor Corp.'s joint venture in China. The 29-year-old says Toyota's inhouse training program was superb, but she found the daily overtime work unbearable. Her Chinese colleagues, who went to Chinese automakers or Germany's BMW and Daimler, saw their wages almost double. "(Toyota's) training is excellent, but the working conditions were bad. It has become a reaping ground for other businesses," she said...more...

[IparryU]

i worked for one japanese company... and that was my last.

will never do it again, reminded me of high school but with less chicks and no fun...

[Ketou]

i worked for one japanese company... and that was my last.

will never do it again, reminded me of high school but with less chicks and no fun...

I think that is exactly what they are like.
They used to hire direct out of Junior High or High School and kept the structure because that was all they knew...even though they hire out of Uni today they cannot change..

[jim katta]

I went and read the article, it is spot on with some great insight. I too worked for a Japanese company and, barring complete desperation and financial ruin, I will never do that again. I value that experience so much because it taught me, more than anything else could have, exactly what Japanese business is made of. I truly feel sorry for the average Japanese salaryman and OL.

Looking forward, I have big doubts that Japanese business can change itself to be more nimble and compete with its Asia neighbors. If I had to predict right now, I would peg future Japan as the France of Asia: a place where most Japanese people still live well, and there remains a lot of mystique from the past, but the government hides a large, poor & disenfranchised immigrant underclass and the country overall serves as a dead-end in terms of innovation or major growth.

[Coligny]

Looking forward, I have big doubts that Japanese business can change itself to be more nimble and compete with its Asia neighbors. If I had to predict right now, I would peg future Japan as the France of Asia: a place where most Japanese people still live well, and there remains a lot of mystique from the past, but the government hides a large, poor & disenfranchised immigrant underclass and the country overall serves as a dead-end in terms of innovation or major growth.

Dead end in term of innovation ?

We make the fastest plane in the world
We make the fastest car in the world
We make the fastest train in the world
We are behind the first mass produced affordable electric vehicle
We are the driving force behind the European space agency
We are the driving force behind Airbus industries
We make our own helicopters, fighter planes, Aircraft Carriers, Subs and battletanks.
We had cheap internet equivalent (the Minitel) before most countries discovered fire and agriculture.
We invented sex during the day and menage a trois.


And you fucking dare to call us 'dead end' ?

[Iraira]

Dead end in term of innovation ?

We make the fastest plane in the world
We make the fastest car in the world
We make the fastest train in the world
We are behind the first mass produced affordable electric vehicle
We are the driving force behind the European space agency
We are the driving force behind Airbus industries
We make our own helicopters, fighter planes, Aircraft Carriers, Subs and battletanks.
We had cheap internet equivalent (the Minitel) before most countries discovered fire and agriculture.
We invented sex during the day and menage a trois.


And you fucking dare to call us 'dead end' ?

I always give the French a free pass because of Mr. Marcus de Sade.

[plaid_knight]

I always give the French a free pass because of Mr. Marcus de Sade.

They also produced Gilles De Rais.

[Coligny]

I always give the French a free pass because of Mr. Marcus de Sade.

It's MARQUIS de Sade, Marquis being a notability rank.
His name was Donatien Alphonse Francois de Sade

[Mulboyne]

Mentioned before, here's Peter Tasker on France and Japan:

The two countries have much in common. Both are remarkable postwar success stories. Both developed economic models with strong dirigiste and mercantilist tendencies. Both are governed by a small, highly-trained elite -- in the French case graduates of the Ecole Nationale d'Administration, in the Japanese case graduates of Tokyo University's law school -- who move effortlessly from the public to the private sector.

Both elites have been put on the defensive by globalization, which they regard not just as an economic challenge but as an assault on their cultural autonomy. In both France and Japan , government bureaucracy is still the natural home of the nation's best and brightest, and anything that constrains its huge discretionary power is to be viewed with deep suspicion.

The similarities don't stop there. Both countries have political leaders who seem to stay around forever. ...Among the G7 nations, France and Japan also have the fastest trains, the most protected farmers, the most opaque banking systems, the tamest press and the most aggressive nuclear energy programs. These may seem like random details but are in fact manifestations of deeply rooted political cultures.

Back to the question raised by the Asahi piece, even though the glory days of the bubble are long gone, Japanese companies and government officials often still labour under the misapprehension that they have the same bargaining position in international markets. As one of the world's leading economies, they do still have considerable clout but there's a different dynamic at work now.

Foreigners used to want to work for Japanese companies because they led their industries globally and it's a fruitful experience to look at the world from the top of the pile. Other employers wanted you because you had Japan experience, and they wanted to do business with the Japan success story.

As the domestic economy is stagnant at best, there have been fewer pickings for overseas companies even as the country has become a slightly easier place to do business. That means there's a lower premium on Japan experience. With many Japanese companies no longer offering industry leadership or global best practices, the incentives for all employees are much reduced and so remuneration and working conditions become more important considerations.

Firms won't have any difficulty recruiting foreigners. The world isn't full of job offers right now and it won't look bad on your employment record to have a start with Toyota or some other blue chip company. The problem will be retention, as the article points out. That's always been a problem for Japanese companies but it mattered less when times were better, because there was always enough growth somewhere in the business to mask the issue.

Now, Japanese companies want foreign employees to help them grow their overseas business at a time when their own local market is flat or shrinking. They could do it themselves when it was all low-hanging fruit, or when overseas customers were eager to start doing business with Japan. In today's more competitive environment, losing the staff you are relying on to stoke the growth engine will be harder to bear.

Some companies may respond by relying on more highly trained, internationally-proficient Japanese staff but they'll soon discover that this class of employee won't stay loyal either without the right incentives.

[Doctor Stop]

Iraira may have been referring to Marcus de Sade, the Blacksploitation Marquis de Sade. He was a bad-ass motherfucker who drove a Mercury Grand Marquis.

[Tsuru]

I went and read the article, it is spot on with some great insight. I too worked for a Japanese company and, barring complete desperation and financial ruin, I will never do that again. I value that experience so much because it taught me, more than anything else could have, exactly what Japanese business is made of. I truly feel sorry for the average Japanese salaryman and OL.

Very recently I discovered that Japan's latest major project, the MRJ, is going to be be built very near to where my wife's family is from, so naturally I checked out the options for aeronautical engineers with a bunch of work experience on the corporation's career website. Unfortunately had to stop as I nearly suffocated laughing at the wages offered. I would have to be an executive or something with this corporation just to make what I make right now in Western Europe.

As much as I would have loved to relocate to Japan temporarily and take my family closer to my newborn's other grandparents, it's just not going to happen.

[Yokohammer]

It's MARQUIS de Sade, Marquis being a notability rank.
His name was Donatien Alphonse Francois de Sade

I can't believe that you, the Master of Deliberately Warped Spelling Variations, would get rankled by that!
Especially in a post by Iraira, the Master of Tongue-in-Cheek Wryness!

(By the way, it's "nobility").

[Iraira]

It's MARQUIS de Sade, Marquis being a notability rank.
His name was Donatien Alphonse Francois de Sade

Hey, he always told me to call him "Mark" when we was laying the leather down on some late 1700s bondage babes. One time....nah, he'd be pissed if I said anything.

but it was cute seeing Coligneee defend this mother tongue.

[Yokohammer]

Unfortunately had to stop as I nearly suffocated laughing at the wages offered. I would have to be an executive or something with this corporation just to make what I make right now in Western Europe.

Interesting.
Can you give us some percentages? As in, how much cheaper are the Japanese wages?

[6810]

Interesting.
Can you give us some percentages? As in, how much cheaper are the Japanese wages?

And indeed, how much cheaper is it to live in Japan than in Western Europe where, well, everything is expensive, hence the inflated salaries.

Not hatin' , just sayin'.

[Yokohammer]

And indeed, how much cheaper is it to live in Japan than in Western Europe where, well, everything is expensive, hence the inflated salaries.

Not hatin' , just sayin'.

Of course there's a difference in the cost of living, but if I don't have some figures I can't even begin to make any calculations. Capisci?

[Coligny]

And indeed, how much cheaper is it to live in Japan than in Western Europe where, well, everything is expensive, hence the inflated salaries.

Not hatin' , just sayin'.

Well, except for prostitutes and flat screen TVs, I don't know a lot of things that are cheaper...

[Coligny]

Hey, he always told me to call him "Mark" when we was laying the leather down on some late 1700s bondage babes. One time....nah, he'd be pissed if I said anything.

but it was cute seeing Coligneee defend this mother tongue.

I wuz feelin' threaten'ed I mah cultural heritage superiority...

[Mulboyne]

[Iraira]

[Tsuru]

Interesting.
Can you give us some percentages? As in, how much cheaper are the Japanese wages?

Compared to what I would make in Japan working for MHI, I make ~150% more over here, even with an unusually high JPY/EUR exchange rate of 108. Valid points about the difference in the cost of living (shit is fucking expensive over here), but I think I would struggle to live the same way in Japan on that salary as I do over here with what I make now... the difference is can't be anywhere near 150%.

[Yokohammer]

Compared to what I would make in Japan working for MHI, I make ~150% more over here, even with an unusually high JPY/EUR exchange rate of 108. Valid points about the difference in the cost of living (shit is fucking expensive over here), but I think I would struggle to live the same way in Japan on that salary as I do over here with what I make now... the difference is can't be anywhere near 150%.

Thanks Tsuru.

That's interesting info. Part of my brain is still stuck somewhere back in the bubble when people all over the world were jealous of the kind of money that could be made in Japan, so it's good to get a realistic update.

[Coligny]

[Coligny]

[Mulboyne]

I don't think "expensive' should include the exchange rate.

It shouldn't be the only basis to make the judgement but it certainly shouldn't be excluded either. Certainly, one way of looking at look at how expensive, or cheap, consumer goods and services are in an economy is to measure them against an average local salary. Some, not all, price levels in Japan have always seemed high on that basis but the country's international reputation as an expensive country was really established in the period following the Plaza Accord.

[6810]

I wasn't really talking about exchange rates. I was talking about relative costs within the country. When Coligny spoke about utilities etc... that's what I was getting at. Sure, some things in Japan are over priced, but in my experience, near economic stagnation means that prices have hardly risen in the eight years that I have lived here.

All of my daily living expenses, my music collection, mortgage, transportation etc is far cheaper as a whole when compared to Oz, which is back home, for me.

Last year, blood and shit flew out of my nose at the shock and outrage of the cost of anything in Australia, where in perfect opposition to Japan, a strong resources economy has been extrapolated onto the economy as a whole causing a fuckload of inflation and the vile real estate bubble that persists.

Sure, here in Japan, my salary might be a bit lower when compared to a relative position in Oz, but it sure goes a lot further.

As for Europe, great for travelling on the Aussie dollar or yen, but still, IMO way overpriced.

[sublight]

Well duh... since when 'yes men' are to be considered friends ?

When you're tryin' to get a posse together and invade Iraq. Duh.

[tigermilk]

Compared to what I would make in Japan working for MHI, I make ~150% more over here, even with an unusually high JPY/EUR exchange rate of 108. Valid points about the difference in the cost of living (shit is fucking expensive over here), but I think I would struggle to live the same way in Japan on that salary as I do over here with what I make now... the difference is can't be anywhere near 150%.

If you don't mind me asking, what programs did you work on at MHI? I've worked with MHI over the last 10 years for the space program (International Space Station, where MHI built several modules). I know plenty of folks from many MHI facilities throughout Japan. Even stumbled upon a Japanese native who grew up in Texas and was in my high school at a design review in Nagoya a few years back.

I've always wondered what kind of salary my colleagues at JAXA are pulling down. Only a couple have houses in Tsukuba, despite land being relatively cheap out there. On the other hand, most of my European colleagues are making a decent enough wage to buy a house, though most aren't in the big cities.

[Jack]

Compared to what I would make in Japan working for MHI, I make ~150% more over here, even with an unusually high JPY/EUR exchange rate of 108. Valid points about the difference in the cost of living (shit is fucking expensive over here), but I think I would struggle to live the same way in Japan on that salary as I do over here with what I make now... the difference is can't be anywhere near 150%.

Does that include all the benefits? Like commuting expenses, entertainment, and one or two months' bonus at the end of year ect. ect.? My employees in Japan cost me just under 50% more than in Canada when I include all benefits.

[Adhesive]

Does that include all the benefits? Like commuting expenses, entertainment, and one or two months' bonus at the end of year ect. ect.? My employees in Japan cost me just under 50% more than in Canada when I include all benefits.

Is that what you call your prostitutes?