Tohoku Earthquake, Tsunami and Nuclear Disaster!!!

[Jack]

Oh, I agree 100% Hitachi should also be held responsible.

I think this is sensationalisation. I'm not sure there was a defect. There may have been a defect but apparently he fixed it before delivery. This is beginning to sound like a witchhunt.

[Tsuru]

Reading about what exactly was wrong with the thing, I think the reactor vessel is probably fine. What's more worrying is the inspector from TEPCO who was being wined, dined and onsen'd by Hitachi when he should have been doing HIS JOB. Who knows what else he didn't see when he wasn't actually... you know... inspecting.

[Coligny]

I think this is sensationalisation. I'm not sure there was a defect. There may have been a defect but apparently he fixed it before delivery. This is beginning to sound like a witchhunt.

Learn the difference between concealing (hiding) and fixing. Also learn that some industrial production method have to be done right at the first try as they cannot be fixed reliably after.

casting, hardening, welding, quenching, it's all old stuff, middle age technology. It works well on small parts, but you need rocket scientist to use those methods on big parts because they scale awefully badly. Problem coming mainly from uniformity of the heating cooling process, if some zone of the part cool or warm too fast compared to the rest you have cracks stress and other problems that can / will show up preferably at the worst possible time. Even blades for an aircraft engine require excessive skills as they are usually 'grown' from a single crystal to have a uniform behaviour toward heat and stress.

[FG Lurker]

Oh, I agree 100% Hitachi should also be held responsible.

If you start holding whistle blowers responsible for the things they report suddenly the whistle blowers stop talking. Nothing motivates someone to keep quiet more than the thought of putting their own ass in a sling. Further, the understanding that by reporting what they know they *won't* have their asses in a sling is a good motivator to bring people forward.

*IF* a problem is found (and so far it's just one guy's statements -- the guy might just be pissed off with his ex-employer!) and the problem is found to materially affect the containment then Hitachi should be held responsible. It was the management who signed off on the alleged fix.

[ttjereth]

[Jack]

1. Address the topic and content being discussed rather than just throwing around weasel words like "Sensationalization/sensationalism" and "witchhunt" without any support or explanation.

What is sensationalist? The idea that I think someone who admits to wrong doing should be punished? The way the article presents the situation? The supposed risk of the defect in question?

And if it's the last one, what do you base that opinion on that it should be given any weight against the opinion of an engineer who worked on actually building the reactor in question?

And how is saying someone who admits to wrong doing and someone accused of wrong doing (Hitachi), if proven guilty, should be punished, a "witchhunt"?


2. You don't get to have it both ways there.

If you believe him, there was a defect and according to him he hid (not fixed) it.

So I'm not sure where "I'm not sure there was a defect" comes from unless you are saying you don't believe him, in which case I don't see where you get "apparently he fixed it before delivery" because then you'd essentially saying you don't believe what he is saying (there is a defect) and attributing to him something he doesn't say he did (he fixed it) in a situation you don't believe occurred?

If there was no defect, he couldn't have "fixed" it.

Tanaka himself is not at all ambiguous on the point that there was a defect and that he helped cover it up.






The degree of danger/risk that the defect poses, I don't know, and that could very well be blown out of proportion, but that still doesn't change that he is saying there was a defect which he felt was dangerous and yet covered up.



Related:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-03-17/japan-s-nuclear-disaster-caps-decades-of-faked-safety-reports-accidents.html

I guess I am not an alarmist. What I should have said is that there may have been a defect but the defect may not necessarily have been mission-critical. The way I see this is that this thing worked well for 40 years and so it must have been good. I am not in Japan so I don't have to live with the fear of radiation which makes it easier for me to talk, but in my book this is not a revelation Bloomberg tries to make it look like. It's a yawn.

[ttjereth]

If you start holding whistle blowers responsible for the things they report suddenly the whistle blowers stop talking. Nothing motivates someone to keep quiet more than the thought of putting their own ass in a sling. Further, the understanding that by reporting what they know they *won't* have their asses in a sling is a good motivator to bring people forward.
*IF* a problem is found (and so far it's just one guy's statements -- the guy might just be pissed off with his ex-employer!) and the problem is found to materially affect the containment then Hitachi should be held responsible. It was the management who signed off on the alleged fix.

Granted, and in this guy's case it is possible that he is full of shit or altering events since he seems to have the ulterior motives of selling a book and general anti-nuclear campaigning now after his "breakdown".

But I wasn't referring to just this guy, but also the others who have crawled out of the woodwork to talk to media all of the sudden, like the foreign subcontractors mentioned earlier an article linked in this thread (or one of the 14 others on the topic, I've lost track) who are all of the sudden saying things along the lines of "yeah, there were constant violations and all sorts of sketchy stuff" only now that shit has become a problem.

I have never bought the whole "I'm just doing my job" thing when you are doing something that is or can potentially screw over a bunch of other people not directly involved. I think these people had a responsibility to make sure any of those problems were corrected when discovered and to report coverups and such when they occurred, not years later after shit has already hit the fan.

It might be necessary to not punish these guys because otherwise other people won't come forward, but coming forward after the fact, whether because they had a change of heart or to try and save their own asses, doesn't lessen their guilt in my opinion. ] I personally [/B]have an easy time believing that a lot of these defects, discrepancies and whatever are real.

[ttjereth]

I guess I am not an alarmist. What I should have said is that there may have been a defect but the defect may not necessarily have been mission-critical. The way I see this is that this thing worked well for 40 years and so it must have been good. I am not in Japan so I don't have to live with the fear of radiation which makes it easier for me to talk, but in my book this is not a revelation Bloomberg tries to make it look like. It's a yawn.

Now see, that I can accept. And I'm not trying to say that this supposed flaw is/was mission critical. I don't have a clue. Up until the past few years the majority of my nuclear knowledge was from movies and comic books.

The article could be blowing the potential danger/risk completely out of proportion.

What I am saying is that Tanaka thinks it was a big deal, and these other people are saying that they thought other issues were, in their supposedly educated opinions, dangerous, but they either did nothing about them, or even helped cover them up and to me that makes them just as guilty as the management assholes who told them to keep quiet or cover up issues in the first place.

If I worked at a car manufacturer and discovered a flaw that could cause the gas tank to spontaneously explode, and I decide to just ignore it, or, like Tanaka says he did, actually take money from the manufacturer to intentionally hide the flaw, I should be held culpable for not convincing the manufacturer to correct the flaw, or failing that, revealing/reporting the information immediately so that someone else (e.g. the government) could take action.

Tanaka, assuming what he says is true, did come forward with the information, but only YEARS later when he had a change of heart, and I don't think he or others like him should be absolved of all responsibility.

I know practically this isn't feasible in many cases, because, as FG stated, otherwise no one would ever come forward, but I still think they are a bunch of criminal jackasses who potentially endangered lives (in their own opinions) for selfish or stupid reasons.

[ttjereth]

Some new, somewhat heartening news.

http://news.sciencemag.org/scienceinsider/2011/03/conflicting-us-and-japan-evacuat.html

Although I tend to disagree with:

Shunichi Yamashita, a radiation health expert at Nagasaki University's Atomic Bomb Disease Institute, said that at the moment someone living 31 kilometers from the plant is no more at risk of harm from radiation from the Fukushima plant than someone living in London.

Unless London's water supply is routed through Kanto


Also radiation readings from the U.S. NNSA:
http://blog.energy.gov/content/situation-japan/

http://www.fuckedgaijin.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=3773&stc=1&d=1300914407

[omae mona]

Some new, somewhat heartening news.

Thanks for that link. It's heartening, but not new. Unfortunately, accurate information like this has not been well publicized.

I was on a conference call last week with a nuclear power expert who was making exactly this point, though he went a bit further than this article. The article states the U.S. government's recommendations are more stringent than Japan.

But the guy on my call was pointing out that the U.S. government's recommendations are more stringent than in the U.S.! The NRC pronouncements are totally out of line with their own official policy, which they've followed in the past. In the U.S. rules for this type of accident would have automatically called for a 20km zone, exactly as in Japan. In summary, he said the 80km recommendation was absolutely "not based on science", and he was totally baffled by what the NRC was doing, just as the authors of the article above.

The fact that the NRC set aside their own established policy, and replaced it with some new model that turned out to differ from reality by a factor of tens of thousands, definitely merits some scrutiny in my opinion.

[American Oyaji]

A magnitude 9.0 precursor?

How BIG does THE BIG ONE have to be?

The Great Kanto Earthquake supposedly had a magnitude of 7.9.
Fires were the main cause of death in that case, not the quake.

I'm not speaking of magnitude, but location. In this case, despite the damage, it was the tsunami that caused most of the problems.

I think THE Big One will shake the eyeteeth out of Hachiko.

And like I said. I do hope I'm wrong.

[cstaylor]

In summary, he said the 80km recommendation was absolutely "not based on science", and he was totally baffled by what the NRC was doing, just as the authors of the article above.

The fact that the NRC set aside their own established policy, and replaced it with some new model that turned out to differ from reality by a factor of tens of thousands, definitely merits some scrutiny in my opinion.

Scientists and experts aren't elected officials. Last night my father-in-law asked if boiling the water would remove any radioiodine contamination. He is not a dumb guy, so you can understand the general panic both here and abroad about the invisible rays.

The citizens may not understand radiation, but they know how to work an election box. Woe to the politician who doesn't err on the side of caution.

[cstaylor]

I think one reason the GOJ isn't expanding the evacuation area: where would they evacuate to?

It's easy for the NRC to make these statements because they aren't involved in the logistics of supporting these refugees.

(We really need a glows-in-the-dark emoticon... this is all I have for now-> )

[ttjereth]

(We really need a glows-in-the-dark emoticon... this is all I have for now-> )

We do have mutants!

[Coligny]

We do have mutants!

Too early...

[Jack]

I think one reason the GOJ isn't expanding the evacuation area: where would they evacuate to?

It's easy for the NRC to make these statements because they aren't involved in the logistics of supporting these refugees.

(We really need a glows-in-the-dark emoticon... this is all I have for now-> )

I think people should have a little more faith in the government of Japan.

I have been watching the news almost non-stop which got interrupted by the news of recent attacks on Libya but before that every expert was on TV giving their own prognosis for everything. The best was CNN when Blitzer was chastising the government of Japan for issuing only a 20 km evacuation notice while the U.S. government had issued an 80 km notice. As if the two are comparable. Where would all the folks within 80 km evacuate?

Everyone thinks that his/her idea is better than that of the government of Japan.

[Jack]

Finally someone says it right.

A message from Japan: Please STOP the hysteria

[Jack]

Another interesting site.

Tweets from Japan

[IkemenTommy]

I have been watching the news almost non-stop which got interrupted by the news of recent attacks on Libya but before that every expert was on TV giving their own prognosis for everything. The best was CNN..

I doubt that we will see the same amount of media obsession when Michael Jackson died, but now that Elizabeth Taylor is dead, we'll see less of fear inducing coverage of Fukushima n-plants on Channel Not Newsworthy and Faux News.

That's good for me at least because I will be getting fewer "are you OK?" calls from my parents every time there is some "breaking news" about the dangerous level of radiation level which were starting to get annoying.

[cstaylor]

Where would all the folks within 80 km evacuate?

Everyone thinks that his/her idea is better than that of the government of Japan.

That's what I said.

[chan]

What chance of a 'big one' in Tokyo?

[canman]

I got tired of watching the news about all the death and destruction, and the imminent irradiation that we are all going to expericence, so I decided to get my work duds on and read over the river near my house to start picking up all the debris left behind from the tsunami. I don't have a truck or anything like that and my plan was just to collect it and put it in pile that could be more easily collected in the future. So off I went, and within a short while a few people who walk beside the river began watching me, which is no big deal, but then a little while later, a car pulled up and some Ojisan, I didn't catch where he works, but he told me to stop what I was doing. I asked shy, and he told me that this is someone's property and they may want to come and claim it!
I was like, WTF, this is garbage, old life jackets pieces of wood, some plastic crates, nobody wants this stuff,and it is just littering the riverside. Anyway I gave up not wanting to cause a scene, and walked home. Now can anybody tell me was I in the wrong. Should I have consulted the city office first before I started to do this, maybe , but I didn't think it would be a big deal.

[Marked Trail]

What the heck is this biach?

A brave American lesbian survives Japan's earthquake with aluminum foil on her head!

[Fridae | Coping with disaster: Japan's LGBT community speaks
--An American lesbian Fridae member in Tokyo:
[floatl][/floatl]On Friday, March 11, I was at the hair salon when the earthquake struck , getting my hair highlighted in central Tokyo, so with aluminum foil in my hair and a long white gown on, my hairdresser and I , hand in hand, descended down four flights of stairs quickly to the street. I must have looked like an alien in a sci- fi movie, but none of that mattered when you feel like your life is about to end. Huge buildings were swaying and the ground beneath our feet was shaking for several long minutes. All trains had stopped running so I would be forced to walk home in the dark, not knowing how I could possibly do that, because I can't read Japanese and didn&apos]...more...[/URL]

Photos of her heroic escape here.

[matsuki]

I got tired of watching the news about all the death and destruction, and the imminent irradiation that we are all going to expericence, so I decided to get my work duds on and read over the river near my house to start picking up all the debris left behind from the tsunami. I don't have a truck or anything like that and my plan was just to collect it and put it in pile that could be more easily collected in the future. So off I went, and within a short while a few people who walk beside the river began watching me, which is no big deal, but then a little while later, a car pulled up and some Ojisan, I didn't catch where he works, but he told me to stop what I was doing. I asked shy, and he told me that this is someone's property and they may want to come and claim it!
I was like, WTF, this is garbage, old life jackets pieces of wood, some plastic crates, nobody wants this stuff,and it is just littering the riverside. Anyway I gave up not wanting to cause a scene, and walked home. Now can anybody tell me was I in the wrong. Should I have consulted the city office first before I started to do this, maybe , but I didn't think it would be a big deal.

Did you explain that you weren't trashing, just putting in a pile?

[omae mona]

I got tired of watching the news about all the death and destruction, and the imminent irradiation that we are all going to expericence, so I decided to get my work duds on and read over the river near my house to start picking up all the debris left behind from the tsunami. I don't have a truck or anything like that and my plan was just to collect it and put it in pile that could be more easily collected in the future. So off I went, and within a short while a few people who walk beside the river began watching me, which is no big deal, but then a little while later, a car pulled up and some Ojisan, I didn't catch where he works, but he told me to stop what I was doing. I asked shy, and he told me that this is someone's property and they may want to come and claim it!
I was like, WTF, this is garbage, old life jackets pieces of wood, some plastic crates, nobody wants this stuff,and it is just littering the riverside. Anyway I gave up not wanting to cause a scene, and walked home. Now can anybody tell me was I in the wrong. Should I have consulted the city office first before I started to do this, maybe , but I didn't think it would be a big deal.

It sounds as if they thought you were trying to take the property or throw it away, not tidy it up. Did they understand what you were doing?

Regardless, people are going to have to get used to ignoring the lost property laws, and they will have to start just throwing away junk that is damaged or not valuable. No koban is big enough to hold this debris for months waiting for the owner to appear, and nobody has time to fill out the found property paperwork each time they find a scrap of junk. Either they set these rules aside, or the debris will be littering these towns for years.

[Coligny]

Anyway I gave up not wanting to cause a scene, and walked home. Now can anybody tell me was I in the wrong. Should I have consulted the city office first before I started to do this, maybe , but I didn't think it would be a big deal.

New crime... cleaning while fureigner...

I would have replied that if it was someone property, said someone was illegally littering and therefore I will call the police to report them... (internet tough guy / by the book asshole). The pack-rat mentality is really starting to get on my nerve...

[canman]

I thought it was fairly obvious, me, next to me big pile of junk. I guess I should have explained myself better, but is there really a big market for diesel soaked life jackets, and cracked safety helmets. I don't think so.
On a note, my daughter lives in Yokohama, and I am thinking about driving down to pick her up, does anybody know if the rest areas on the express highways have gas? We heard that the shinkansen will be out of service for another month.

[IkemenTommy]

a car pulled up and some Ojisan,

Fuck him. Go ahead and let him call the cops because I am sure they are more busy with other shit in a time like this.

BTW, has any FG been getting pulled over for bicycle registration lately?

[matsuki]

I thought it was fairly obvious, me, next to me big pile of junk. I guess I should have explained myself better, but is there really a big market for diesel soaked life jackets, and cracked safety helmets. I don't think so.

Keep in mind, this is the country where they spend heaps of time cleaning, folding and preparing their garbage before they set it out to be picked up. Who knows what was going through his mind...but yeah, probably should have just said you were just cleaning up the area and putting it in a more manageable state, not taking/trashing anything. Maybe have even asked him to help. Kill em with kindness, and if all else fails, ignore him.

[Mike Oxlong]

First pictures emerge of the Fukushima Fifty