Tohoku Earthquake, Tsunami and Nuclear Disaster!!!

[Greji]

Greji, tell the truth. You prefer rides at the Mustache Ranch.

Only if spurs are allowed!

[FG Lurker]

That's not all together true Lurk. There was a Trinity that worked at Mustang Ranch the last time I was there. She was a bit pricey, but well worth the ride....

Guessing that lead to a helluva an explosion eh...

[Greji]

Guessing that lead to a helluva an explosion eh...

Only if me pacemaker short-circuits!

[omae mona]

That's still $25 billion to return to the status quo before the earthquake, and they're jumping at the opportunity because the GOJ has insinuated that TEPCO is "too big to fail" with their nationalization talk.

Yes, you are spot on about the banks. It's a risk free loan. And probably risk free even if TEPCO is not nationalized (hard to go wrong financing a monopoly with huge cash flow). But anyway back to the main point...

That $250 billion to rebuild will create jobs. What will issuing $25 billion in debt to cover preventable mistakes do for the economy?

They're going to use the capital for equipment and labor (jobs). Anyway we were talking about the amount of economic loss, not how much of the recovery will have a positive side effect, right?

If everything was as sanguine as you and FGL make it out to be, why is the TEPCO president AWOL? According to you and FGL, it was impossible for them to do anything to prevent this.

Hey, don't group me with that loser FGL!!! I said I think investigations will very likely show TEPCO screwed up. I just don't think we can prove it from our seats here on FG, using our 20/20 hindsight.

[Yokohammer]

I said I think investigations will very likely show TEPCO screwed up. I just don't think we can prove it from our seats here on FG, using our 20/20 hindsight.

We can try! (Where's the fun in not trying?)
I'll be working toward an "A" for effort.

[omae mona]

And I like how your measurement yardstick keeps getting worse. We've gone from TMI to Chernobyl to above-ground nuclear testing.

"Fukushima: not nearly as bad as the Trinity testing grounds"

Actually, isn't it the opposite? I think the measurement yardstick is getting more restrictive if I understand FGL's point.


If he were comparing to TMI, pointing out that nobody got sick then, some people would be saying "bah! That's an invalid comparison since Fukushima could be much worse. Just because nobody got sick after TMI doesn't mean nobody will get sick after Fukushima".

Rather, FGL is pointing out that even an incident that released as much radiation as those nuclear tests, which were demonstrably much worse than Fukushima could ever be, still did not cause cancer.

So I think FGL moved the yardstick the opposite direction of what you are saying.
[EDIT: particularly based on the note from Kuang Grade, I am not sure the comparison to the nuclear tests is valid, especially if lots of people actually did get cancer. But still FGL was trying to provide a stronger example of why we have no cancer risk, not a weaker example]

[cstaylor]

I was putting it in context with what the Japanese media has been saying... first they were comparing Fukushima to TMI, then it's been summarized as "not as bad as Chernobyl", and now FGL is stating how even with nuclear test fallout (yikes!), nobody got really ill, so we shouldn't worry about the Daiichi NPS creating a Fukushima-ben speaking Godzilla.

[cstaylor]

Hey, don't group me with that loser FGL!!!

I know... he won't even eat seafood!

[Coligny]

I know... he won't even eat seafood!

ehhmmm... I actually don't eat ANYTHING waterborn either...

Before I was not minding tuna much... but when the cats came... they went out of reach...

[Mulboyne]

Name that company:

[Mulboyne]

The Kesennuma video has gone from YouTube. Here's the Daily Motion version.

[dm]xhtvtc[/dm]

[FG Lurker]

Aww, come on Lurk, now you are just grabbing at air...Prevailing winds for LA would mean it would extremely unlikely anything happening in NV would reach LA.

LA is a stretch, just like anyone in Osaka being worried is a stretch. Lots of people in Osaka are still worried though. LV was ~150km away though, much like Tokyo is ~150km away from Fukushima. Not sure about the prevailing winds from the test site towards LV but from Fukushima they tend to blow out to sea.

Summary

So, we have 500 atmospheric tests totaling hundreds of (actually probably several thousand) megatons of explosions, and perhaps 11,000 deaths due to increased cancer from I131. For some reason this doesn't make me worry about the situation at Fukushima...

[FG Lurker]

Actually, isn't it the opposite? I think the measurement yardstick is getting more restrictive if I understand FGL's point.

Yes, you understand perfectly.

[EDIT: particularly based on the note from Kuang Grade, I am not sure the comparison to the nuclear tests is valid, especially if lots of people actually did get cancer. But still FGL was trying to provide a stronger example of why we have no cancer risk, not a weaker example]

There were a total of 500 atmospheric explosions, many of them absolutely massive. Even with that huge number only 11,000 deaths were linked to increased risk of cancer from I131 exposure. I don't wish to trivialize those 11,000 deaths but considering the incomparable difference in radiation released from 500 bomb tests vs the Fukushima situation I'm not concerned about radiation levels from Fukushima.

[FG Lurker]

My God, that's like admitting you live in Paris and can't stand good cheese, fine wine, and world-class chocolate.

Not really. Good cheese, fine wine, and world-class chocolate don't give you wicked bouts of Montezuma's Revenge if they are slightly "off". I love everything about the ocean except for tsunamis and seafood. So much so that:



I just take good steak along to eat while all the crazy folk BBQ oysters.

I do on occasion have a bit of crab, some shrimp, or even a bit of sashimi. We get everything fresh at the nearby fisherman's market.

[Ganma]

[Ganma]

[Doctor Stop]

But did she glow in the dark?

Her merkin certainly did.

[Bucky]

The Huff Post is now demanding that foreign experts solve the problem for the Japanese.

. . . Japanese officials are merely asked in their own polite etiquette what the real facts are. No one insists when they refuse outside help in order not to spread panic, and to salvage their costly investment.

All of this is absurd. The nuclear industry as a whole, like global financial markets, cannot possibly be saved if the disaster is not brought under control quickly. The recent German elections that turned on that country's nuclear exposure only foreshadowed the reaction to come across the globe.

There is thus an urgent need to establish a global consortium of nations and experts with the competence to intervene to stem the damage. Our Japanese friends must accept such intervention as quickly as possible without feeling offended or humiliated by our insistence. Confidence can only be restored when the real facts are known through an objective "stress test."

[Jack]

The Huff Post is now demanding that foreign experts solve the problem for the Japanese.

I love it when I hear arrogant foreigners thinking they know better than the local Japanese on how to deal with the crisis. I bet you when asked to help foreigners would not even come any closer than 500 km of the impacted area for fear of radiation, while the locals are working in the fucking plant trying their best to prevent the situation from getting worse.

Maybe, just maybe, the Japanese are doing all that can be done under the circumstances.

[Mulboyne]

WAPO: In Ishinomaki, Japan, stories of survival and loss

[Coligny]

I love it when I hear arrogant foreigners thinking they know better than the local Japanese on how to deal with the crisis. I bet you when asked to help foreigners would not even come any closer than 500 km of the impacted area for fear of radiation, while the locals are working in the fucking plant trying their best to prevent the situation from getting worse.

Maybe, just maybe, the Japanese are doing all that can be done under the circumstances.

Bitch please...

[Yokohammer]

Maybe, just maybe, the Japanese are doing all that can be done under the circumstances.

Maybe not.

They were slow to take necessary measures in the critical early days of the crisis, probably to protect their assets. They have released measurements that were dead wrong and had to revise them, which is just basic bumbling/incompetence. They have delayed releasing vital information. Their president has thrown in the towel ...

And those are just a few of the problems we know about.

No, they are not doing their best, if that's what you mean by "all they can."

EDIT: it amuses me that the most creative solutions ... spreading a hardening resin around the plant grounds, and shrouding the reactors in some sort of fabric ... were suddenly announced a day after the French experts arrived. Of course no attribution was given, but what do you expect.

[Jack]

Maybe not.

They were slow to take necessary measures in the critical early days of the crisis, probably to protect their assets. They have released measurements that were dead wrong and had to revise them, which is just basic bumbling/incompetence. They have delayed releasing vital information. Their president has thrown in the towel ...

And those are just a few of the problems we know about.

No, they are not doing their best, if that's what you mean by "all they can."
.

It's just that with two weeks of hindshight people have a different perspective on things and I believe TEPCO would too. I am sure that TEPCO knowing what it knows today would have probably done things differently from the get go. Look, I don't believe for a minute that TEPCO knowingly would endanger the lives of its customers.

People such as the Huffington Post or the experts on CNN can talk all they wanbt now and voice their opinion. But talk is cheap. I wonder what their proposed solutions would have been had they been asked the minute the tsunami hit and TEPCO had to spring into action and by removing the benefit of a two-week hindsight.

And this just in: CNN just reporting that traces of radiation have been found in American milk. I wonder if milk was ever tested for radiation in the U.S. before this crisis and if no radiation would have been found. Fucking people trying to make it sound as if they just got some breaking worthwhile fucking news.

[Mike Oxlong]

Elementary school students outperform J-gov in crisis
Principal slated to replace PM

[cstaylor]

It's just that with two weeks of hindshight people have a different perspective on things and I believe TEPCO would too. I am sure that TEPCO knowing what it knows today would have probably done things differently from the get go. Look, I don't believe for a minute that TEPCO knowingly would endanger the lives of its customers.

That's why its called criminal negligence and not murder.

[Yokohammer]

It's just that with two weeks of hindshight people have a different perspective on things and I believe TEPCO would too. I am sure that TEPCO knowing what it knows today would have probably done things differently from the get go. Look, I don't believe for a minute that TEPCO knowingly would endanger the lives of its customers.

I don't think they would deliberately endanger anyone's life either, but I do believe that they did so inadvertently by focusing on the wrong priorities in the very beginning. As you probably know, in Japan that's known as "criminal negligence."

What I mean is that their first reaction was to protect profits and assets, not people. If their first priority had been the health and welfare of the people they would have taken immediate measures that may have made the plant unsalvageable, but would have prevented the disaster from getting as out of hand as it has (and making the plant unsalvageable anyway).

I see the same type of reaction from the salary-robots (especially in Tokyo) quite often, and in this case as well. The first communication I received from one client in Tokyo just shortly after the earthquake/tsunami was, effectively "this is terrible, is the job going to be done on time?" The same thing happened when my father died (in Tokyo) a few years ago. The first thing one client said to me on hearing the news was "oh no, are you going to be able to meet schedule?" There's a huge difference of scale there, but the underlying reaction is similar. An unprecedented disaster occurs, people are dying and suffering in the thousands, and the first thoughts that pop into the minds of the corporate drones involve profit and schedules. I believe the same sort of thing happened at TEPCO, and I strongly feel that a thorough investigation should be launched to ascertain whether that is in fact what led to the subsequent chain reaction of fuckups. A lot of people are going to be suffering for a very long time because of this.

[cstaylor]

[cstaylor]

[Coligny]

It's just that with two weeks of hindshight people have a different perspective on things and I believe TEPCO would too. I am sure that TEPCO knowing what it knows today would have probably done things differently from the get go. Look, I don't believe for a minute that TEPCO knowingly would endanger the lives of its customers.

Let stop a bit with the "after the fact it's easy" bullshit... We're not discussing aboot Marie Sue getting her cherry popped on honey moon here. We're talking aboot a business running potentially dangerous installations. FLG stance on the fact that cutting on a huge spending for statistically irrelevant accident was not something to keep against Tepco was one thing that maybe could be considered a valid under some circumstances (stat that was jacked up to 100% confirming my belief that statistic is just a scam for usually rationnal people to have an excuse for an irrationnal decision). But extending this as an excuse for tepco not even having a fooking clue aboot what to do is beyond stupid.

It's one thing not to have a shovel, it's another one not to even know that you need one. Because it prevent you from even asking around of you can borrow one.

[cstaylor]

IAEA suggests Japan widen exclusion zone near nuclear plant

The International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA) said radiation measured at the village of Iitate, 40 km (25 mile) from Japan's crippled Fukushima Daiichi nuclear plant, exceeded a criterion for evacuation.

Japan has ordered those within a 20 km radius from the plant to leave and is encouraging those living in a 20-30 km ring to do the same, and if they don't, to stay inside.

http://www.swissinfo.ch/eng/news/international/IAEA_suggests_Japan_widen_exclusion_zone_near_nuclear_plant.html?cid=29698946