Used DV camcorder...

[WarlocK]

I'm going to be in the market for a used (can't afford a new one) camcorder. I would prefer a digital version, so I can easily hook it up to my laptop.

Thing is, when it comes to this technology, I don't know what I need to look for. I'm not looking to make anything of professional quality, but I would like to have a nice picture. I want one with either a firewire connector, or USB 2.0 (I assume firewire is more common...) and of course, smaller is better.

So if you guys could give me some suggestions to get me started, that would be great. I'd also appreciate some advice on what gear to stay away from. I realize that when shopping for used devices, I might not always be able to find the best, but I don't want to end up buying the worst, either.

I'm planning on making my purchase either at Den-Den Town here in Osaka, or in Akihabara when I go to Tokyo at the end of September. Any references to either of these two places would be great as well.

Thanks for the help.

[Caustic Saint]

What price range are you looking at? That's the main thing. Prices can vary a lot even on new equipment. I just got a Canon ZR60 online for $383, shipped, and it regularly goes for $499 retail (not counting tax).

Firewire is pretty much standard for MiniDV. Most DV cams I've seen that come with USB use it for transferring pictures captured on an extra memory card.

The main things to look for (in no particular order) are: optical zoom (digital is nifty, but not nearly as good as optical), battery life, available accessories and connections (accessory shoe, microphone, AV in/out, S-video, USB, Firewire). I'd suggest going window shopping first. Compare prices, see how comfortable the different cameras are to hold, choose your favorites, then read reviews of them online. Amazon.com, dealtime.com and epinions.com are all pretty decent sources of reviews. You can also Google with the brand, model number and the word "review."

[WarlocK]

I took the advice and went window shopping today in DenDen Town. I saw a few models that looked pretty good. They are (in no certain order):

Sony DCR-TRV20 at 51500 yen.
This one had probably the best reviews in English I could find. Looks like a nice cam, but the tape loads from the bottom...

Sharp VL-PD3 at 45000 yen.
Couldn't find any English reviews, but I like the size and it's the cheapest one I found (that I would consider) in my search today.

Panasonic NV-C5 at 47800 yen.
Another one with no English reviews. The size looks nice, and I've used other Panasonic equipment that I thought was quality.

These were the used models. I also looked at some new models. They are:

Sony DCR-TRV22K at 74800
A bit pricey for my budget, I wouldn't be able to purchase some of the other equipment I wanted to buy when I get my cam, but it has a really nice feel to it. Again, it's a bottom loader. I actually almost bought this one today. The store had a deal where if you signed up for their credit card they would give you a discount and let you walk out with it today (I'm a sucker for impluse buys), but alas, they only give credit cards to permanent residents (or permanently fucked gaijin?). I like the orange color.

Panasonic NV-GS50K at 74800
The direct competition to the above Sony. My roommate has one of these (in blue) and it's pretty cool. I like the yellow color. Again, it's a bit pricey, but it's a really nice looking cam. From what I can tell it's got basically the same features as the Sony. I'd have to skimp (or hold off completely) on some of the other add-ons, such as a tripod, wide-angle lense, nice bag, extra batteries, and the such.

So does anyone have any advice or suggestions about the above cameras?

I also saw some cool cameras that were JUST BARELY out of my price range. The Sharp ViewcamZ was really slick looking, as was the Canon IXY DV M2.

[Video-Link Japan]

I would take your lap-top along and actually try to plug a firewire cam. into it and see what you get..!!! For sure the data rate from firewire proves to be more than most older lap-tops can handle (11 mbs) so if your looking to write video to a lap-top.. it better have decent cpu, ram and hdd space too..!!

btw:
I've heard there can be compat. issues w/newer Sony mini-dv's.

[Big Booger]

Sony DCR-TRV20 at 51500 yen.
This one had probably the best reviews in English I could find. Looks like a nice cam, but the tape loads from the bottom...

I have the DCR-TRV22K I got it for about 73000 yen with a tripod, bag, battery, and 8MB card and every cable known to god..


The only thing I don't like is I cannot change it from Japanese to English. I did find the manual for it online in English which helps a great deal. The camera works fine. The 120X digital zoom is nice. Tape loads from the bottom, but I don't see how that is a real issue.

Video quality is nice. It also lets you take snapshots. I recommend this camera as a decent low cost solution. The TRV20 should be as good as the 22 model I think. But spoil yourself and go for the TR22.

Below is a fabulous review I found that fairly rates this camera:

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/sony_dcr-trv22_camcorder_review.htm

And for the English PDF manual:
http://www.abtelectronics.com/images/products/DCR-TRV19_22_33

Another thing, it weighs about 530 grams. Fits nicely in the palm of your hand, and the battery life is pretty decent, but I recommend getting one of the longer lasting batteries. I will be purchasing one, and a wide angle lens as well.

They even have an underwater case so you can take ocean shots of sealife under the sea.

[WarlocK]

The review I read (from the same website as the link you gave, actually) mentions that it is next to impossible to load a new tape into the TRV20 when it is on a tripod. As I plan to use a tripod quite a bit (thanks to Pongi-san's (and others') infinite wisdom and advice on all things DV, heh), so that could be a problem.

As far as I can tell the TRV20 was top of the line a few years ago and has some nice Bullet Points. It also had a street price of between $1200-1700 or about 150,000-200,000 yen. now it's only (about) a third to a quarter of that price. It looks like a good deal to me. What do you guys think?

And the TRV22K does look very appealing, but how much will I have to pay for a good light/wide angle lens/2m tripod/big (comfy) bag/extra batterie(s)/any other cool accessory? I know I don't HAVE to have all of those, but if I bought a cheaper camera, my budget could allow for most of that stuff. Right now, I don't want to go much over 80,000 yen. Buying a TRV-22K would put me right at that limit.

[kotatsuneko]

soz, am too lazy to check the specs, but , if your budget allows for it, try to go for a 1megpixel camcorder or way above - if you are gonna really use it for more than friends /family

or at least, as one of the others said, see what the results are like on your deck, as i believe they can differ greatly.. i was lucky, my dv viewcam was free so i cant really complain about the lack of rez..

as i'm sure Pongi tono mentioned before, comfort is king, so get something you really like the feel of, my mate who is handy with all things fraudulent offered me his sony 1meg pixecl camcorder, one of those vertical looking things with the joypad thingy, and blutooth, but it was way to small for my big hands, so i chose the viewcam instead.. he would probably have given me both, but that would have been taking the piss..

something i discovered due to reading Pongi tono's tips , was that in almost all cases, you can film whatever you want here, i had this hangup about filming stuff / people for the first 8 months here or so, but his advice about just doing it, or making some a team style blatant lie does indeed work...

damn this is way too long, erm happy shopping n shooting! totally agree about having a huge amount of ram to deal with the editing..

[WarlocK]

Yeah, I didn't get to do any kind of semi-intensive tests with my comp, but I might do that before I decide to buy.

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention in my last post, but my laptop is pretty much a work-horse. It's got a P4 2.4 Ghz (the generates-more-heat-than-hell-in-the-summertime desktop version), 512mb, and built-in firewire (which hasn't given me a problem so far with any device I've used on it). I think it'll be a good platform for the level of video work I want to do on it.

[WarlocK]

Yeah, I'm definately going to get a tripod, a bag, and probably an extra battery right off the bat, and possibly a wide-angle lens, another battery, and a light if I have enough budget.

So because I want to get a decent setup, I've been thinking about the used DCR-TRV20. I've read some good reviews and some not-so-good reviews (sorry couldn't find the not-so-good links this afternoon). Basically from what I understand, the video quality is good, the still quality is decent (but I already have a dedicated still camera), and there are a few minor annoyances, one of which doesn't apply anymore (the steep price it had when it came out).

Of course what I don't really like is that the model is already 3 years old. What is the lifespan of a DV cam? I would REALLY hate to drop this much money on used equipment only to have it break down in 6 months.

Why does making decisions have to be so difficult? Argh!

Anybody have any thoughts on the TRV20?

[Taro Toporific]

.... in my opinion, whatever you get, its best to get a NEW camera with an extended warranty if possible. Especially if you plan to use it often as you very well may drop it at some time or another. And when that happens...

Could this have anything to do with the liquid Happy at Pongi Venues?


(Taro, who owns 12 dead digi-cams, starting with a 1987 "ZapShot".)

[Big Booger]

About the TRV20,22

I will agree you cannot load the tape mounted to the tripod, but it takes about 2 seconds to take it off. actually 2 360 degree turns. Then click the lever on the bottom, insert new tape and shoot again.


Kind of inconvenient, but not too bad. All in all about 30 seconds to change the tape and start rolling again.

The rear mounted batter is easily accessible. The buttons for zooming, taking a snapshit, changing video modes, etc.. are easily acceessed. The Memory stick is a snap to get to. The view finder bends vertically. The touchpad LCD is a plus. BUt you don't want to eat anything and touch it, especially greasy items

The nightshot works really well, even in near total darkness you can visibly see things in that greenish tint. Recharge takes little time about 45 minutes when the battery is completely dead. The battery recharger looks like a laptop power adapter.

The lens is very nice, but you really need the wide angle lens attachment to get a full perspective at a close distance with it. I like using the remote control to do shots from a tripod with me in the picture. It is like being a director remotely.

If you do get it, let me know what you think. If the TRV-22K hadn't been so cheap I would have gotten the 1 megapixel SOny Handycam.

[Caustic Saint]

The rear mounted batter is easily accessible. The buttons for zooming, taking a snapshit, changing video modes, etc.. are easily acceessed.

Damn! They've got options for just about everything now, don't they?

[Big Booger]

I was typing on my laptop which has a smaller keyboard and screws up my typing.. fartbag.

[Taro Toporific]

[quote="Caustic Saint"]
Damn! They've got options for just about everything now, don't they? ]

Imagine the easy of "casual" low-angle shots with this tiny puppy.

Sony Shows Card-Size Camcorder
PC World - Aug 4
... 10-ounce IP7 camcorder. The DCR-IP1K is scheduled to go on sale in
Japan on October 18, with a price tag of $1380. ...

[Caustic Saint]

I was typing on my laptop which has a smaller keyboard and screws up my typing.. fartbag.

:P It's all in fun. Besides, it was a great typo.

[WarlocK]

Big Booger wrote:
The rear mounted batter is easily accessible. The buttons for zooming, taking a snapshit, changing video modes, etc.. are easily acceessed.

Caustic Saint wrote:
Damn! They've got options for just about everything now, don't they?

From what I've seen, still shots with most camcrders are about as worthless as a steaming pile of shit, so I don't think he was too far off. :P

Anyway, I went window shopping again today. In fact, I was about THIS close to actually buying the TRV-22, but as I didn't have the cash, I tried to sign up for a credit card for the store I was in so I could buy it today, but alas, I was rejected. Ah well.

ANyway, I've got a few tripod questions for those in the know. While I was at the store today, I was checking out tripods, and I found a decent looking one for about 1200 yen. It normally goes for close to 9000, so for me it looked like a pretty good deal. It had three quick adjust clips on each leg, a nifty level-meter bubble thing and reached 1.3 meters high. This was close to the maximum height of all the tripods the store had. Does this sound like a good deal? I'm not sure exactly sure how many different situations I'm going to be using it for, I can think of a few right now (Tokyo Video Game show at the end of this month, on the street interviews a-la-Rob Pongi, drunken gaijin parties) but I can't think of any situations where I would need more than 1.3 meters, right now. Any thoughts?

[Caustic Saint]

From what I've seen, the main thing with tripods is what kind of head it's got on it. A fluid-head will turn much more easily and not stick or stutter when you're panning like cheaper models will. That said, I used a $20 Sunpak. It's about 1.3 meters at full height, and works well enough for the price. I'd start with a cheaper model and use the saved cash for tapes, batteries, filters or other accessories.

As for shooting at parties, I'd pick up a monopod. Easier to move around with and less likely to get kicked over. Sure, you can't leave it by itself and get in the shot, but it's an easy way to get a steady shot without having to deal with a full tripod.

[WarlocK]

...the saved cash for tapes, batteries, filters or other accessories.

Ok, I read Rob's advice for Wide-Angle lenses, and I could see how a Tele-Photo lens might be useful, but what kind of situations would I need a filter for?

... I'd pick up a monopod.

Yeah, I'd like to get one I can use for a video camera and also my digital still camera (Canon DigitalElph (IXY) 200).

[Caustic Saint]

...the saved cash for tapes, batteries, filters or other accessories.

Ok, I read Rob's advice for Wide-Angle lenses, and I could see how a Tele-Photo lens might be useful, but what kind of situations would I need a filter for?

A standard UV filter is good for reducing haze and protecting your lens. I got one for my camera more for protection than dealing with haze. Most filters are threaded to allow the attachment of other filters and/or lenses. Mine cost me $8, and it's easier to replace a scratched filter (should something bad happen) than the built-in lens in your camera.

You can also get polarizing filters for reducing glare (if shooting near water or other reflective surfaces) and flourescent filters for removing the bluish tint those lights can give things.

For some good example pics of the effects filters can have, check out this page over at Steve's Digicams.

[kotatsuneko]

sounds anal, poss is, but dont leave the store without a head cleaner.. ! last thing you want is to be in front of a great scene with the heads dirty icon flashing..