Tohoku Earthquake, Tsunami and Nuclear Disaster!!!

[waruta]

[quote="omae mona"]I am curious]

Moyashi Motherfucker!

[Coligny]

[quote="damn name"]The poor farmers in Fukushima would be better off if you consider improving your cognitive thinking ability concerning perfectly safe vegetables instead of your kanji reading ability. ]

Yes we know, we are total imbeciles to be on the careful side toward food coming from potentially contaminated zones.

WE KNOW, WE GOT IT...

nuclear energy is perfectly safe
oups, it's not that safe but no worry it's not as bad as Chernobyl
oups, it's a bit more bad than we thought but don't worry anyway
oups, it's getting worrysome, but eating nuclear waste is perfectly safe, look, we just raised the dangerous level limit. Now everything bad is good again...

You do guys understand that there is a difference between aknowledging the need for nuclear energy and being a complete blindfolded apologist of every Tepco screwups ? Dismissing suspicion as irrationnal panic will not exactly turn you into thread winnars, we know panic, we saw what it look like, and it's not this. We still have the right to vote with our money right ? you have absolutely no more ground to qualify this food as safe than we have to qualify it as unsafe. But since being on the side of caution just involve buying product from somewhere else than fuckyoushima why don't you just mind your own business, it's not your shopping cart, it's not your kitchen, not your recipe does it ?
you sound like alcoholics in denials. The first step is to realise there is a problem. After, the extend and response needed can be discussed.

[GomiGirl]

Japan seals off no-go zone around nuclear plant

Japan sealed off a wide area around a radiation-spewing nuclear power plant on Friday to prevent tens of thousands of residents from sneaking back to the homes they quickly evacuated, some with little more than a credit card and the clothes on their backs.

This sounds like the start of a very bad screenplay.

[Coligny]

This sounds like the start of a very bad screenplay.

Yup, one that can't be turned into pr0n no matter how creative you are...

and a sequel too... [movie quotes] and sequels sux... [/movie quotes]

[omae mona]

Yes we know, we are total imbeciles to be on the careful side toward food coming from potentially contaminated zones.

You're missing the point of what I was asking. If I can rephrase my question to sarutaro, what makes you think that food came from a potentially contaminated zone, and what do you mean by "potentially"? Like a 50% chance? A 1 in a million chance?

You do guys understand that there is a difference between aknowledging the need for nuclear energy and being a complete blindfolded apologist of every Tepco screwups ?

Most of the people I know in Japan, Japanese and foreign alike, have calmed down. They have taken the time to educate themselves, and believe that no matter how much TEPCO screwed up, the laws of science still apply, They believe that no matter how much TEPCO screwed up, there is not a massive conspiracy between government, business, academics, and other observers to trick us into eating poison food. So a mix of common sense, scientific understanding, and careful scrutiny of public information is driving our thinking.

Why on earth you think this means we are apologists for TEPCO is completely beyond me. Coligny, your straw man arguments are getting quite boring.

you have absolutely no more ground to qualify this food as safe than we have to qualify it as unsafe.

Coligny, you are entitled to believe whatever you like. I don't know what your grounds are for believing moyashi from Fukushima are unsafe. You have not said anything whatsoever except that you don't like TEPCO. Most of us don't see the link between hating TEPCO and a health problem from eating moyashi from Fukushima. I'd be happy to write up the "grounds" that myself and most consumers would not be concerned about that moyashi, but I don't think you are interested.

But since being on the side of caution just involve buying product from somewhere else than fuckyoushima why don't you just mind your own business, it's not your shopping cart, it's not your kitchen, not your recipe does it ?

Nobody's telling anybody what they are allowed to buy or not buy. As I've stated in a previous message, I am perfectly happy when people don't buy products they feel are unsafe for some reason. You're telling me that when Sarutaro posted what his wife said, that was private information I am not entitled to ask about? What do you think this forum is for? You seem to feel threatened when people discuss facts about food safety, though nobody has once suggested you should eat anything you don't feel is safe.

[Yokohammer]

Is it just me, or does anybody else feel uncomfortable watching the president of Tepco being berated by people for the nuclear disaster. I know the company is wrong, but I cannot imagine any other country in the world where a company president would go and do dogeza!

There were a couple of interesting points in his interview with Governor Sato (Fukushima). One was Sato telling Shimizu to improve the working conditions of the workers at the plant. Sato called them Fukushima's only "stars of hope," or something like that. I have to agree. I just can't understand why they don't even have proper food or sleeping facilities. That's just insane.

Another was Sato telling Shimizu flat out that there's no way the No. 1 plant will ever be restarted. Seems like a sane response to me, yet even after the interview Shimizu told reporters that although some of the reactors will have to be scrapped, he will "consider" what to do with the two salvageable ones. That sort of indicates that he (Tepco) really wants to restart the reactors. Once again, Tepco assets seem to be more important that human life and livelihood.

Personally, I think all the public berating, while reading Tepco's response, is serving to give the public a better view of the company's real attitude toward the crisis. Little details too, like how while Shimizu was dogeza-ing at the evacuation centers, the other Tepco officials simply stood behind him looking down their noses at the situation with distinctly non-contrite expressions on their faces. People notice those things, and the public opinion that results will have a direct effect on the company's future. You never know ... they might even have to get their act together.

[Mulboyne]

[Samurai_Jerk]

To me avoiding Fukushima-grown produce seems like a very rational response till the crisis is over and we know exacly what the extent of the contamination is. I don't understand people who have shit their pants, quit their jobs, cashed in at a serious loss on their Japan life and fled for good. However, I think that people who are willing to believe whatever line the J-government or TEPCO feeds them are almost as stupid.

For years the public has been told about the dangers of radiation and the horrors or nuclear meltdown. Maybe there was a lot of exaggeration and propaganda but you can't expect them to suddenly change their minds over night because we're in the midst of a disaster and it would be convenient for them to do so not to mention good for the economy of the effected area.

I think it's also natural for people to be suspicious of official messages. A good example is embassies telling their citizens Tokyo was safe right after the quake and tsunami while at the same time relocating their staff to Nagoya or Kansai. I think it's pefectly normal for a person looking at that to assume or at least be worried they aren't telling us something.

Depending on your nationality doubting your government might be the most prudent thing you can do. A lot of people bitched about all the Chinese abandoning ship. However, if you think about the Chinese government's track record of BS and collusions with industry at the expense of it's people, it's very rational for the Chinese to have zero faith in what the government, NHK and TEPCO are telling them.

[Mike Oxlong]

"When Tokyo Electric Power gave GE our largest export order ever, it gave Tokyo the largest, most efficient power plant of its kind in the world. Which means more jobs for our people back home and a better future for the people of Japan."

[Mike Oxlong]

[SIZE="4"]Here's why Japan's earthquake was so strong[/SIZE]
Surprisingly, it ruptured several areas of a fault that before had ruptured alone

[Mulboyne]

Julia Gillard visiting the disaster area. She also gave Kan the helmet worn by the leader of the Australian rescue crew who went to the scene in the early days.

[omae mona]

[Cyka UchuuJin]

has anyone started a charity thread that i'm not aware of?

got an email today from a guy who used to study with the boyf, and he's starting some kind of fundraising and charity for 'Asahigaoka Gakuen-Orphanage in Kesenuma'. He doesn't specify though what the money will be used for, which makes me immediately skeptical, especially after reading last week about a german and swede who was arrested with a Haitian orphan in Frankfurt airport, who had been taking kids orphans from Haiti under the guise of finding adoptive families, but were really selling them as child prostitutes.

are there any existing organisations helping orphans that money can be given to?

[Coligny]

enjoy your vegetabuls.

Stop patronizing those that don't want to eat them.

end of the story, at this point you are no better than a 5 yo who totally miss the point and wont stfu.

no matter how many times we spell it for you, it wont change anything. So let's be more basic:

We put what we want in our plates. We don't care aboot your safety claims. We are as irrationnal as we want, it's not your business, stop the patronising.

or to put it in a cost-risk-benefit analysis since it's all the rage these days:
cost of avoiding fukushima vegetables: 0 yen
benefit of eating them against those of other pref: 0
risk of eating them: variable between 0 and unknown

so you see, even with a risk level of 0 you already have no argument to defend Fukushima product (for the consumer). Since the risk (based on governement bans) is more likely to be between low and unknown, it close the deal against them. Now you will again say, even if it's tainted, it's not dangerous. Guess what... expired food is also not dangerous... most of the time... if you want to be safe, you discard it anyway...

Your entire reasonning is totally immature, it's like saying, I don't need to wear my seatbelt, i've never been into a car accident. Now compare the little hassle of putting it to the major hassle of not having it in case of a low probability traffic accident. Now the huge trouble with your behaviour is that you don't say the equivalent of "i don't need a seatbelt" your telling us that WE don't need a seatbelt because blah blah accident happen only to other and when they happen most of them are not that bad.

[Mulboyne]

...While it discusses radiation releases from Fukushima, none of these pieces address the health aspect of cancer risk, whether from contaminated food or other paths....Notably, one of those articles compares the Japanese government's handling of this event to the Singapore government's handling of the SARS epidemic. And I think that's precisely the flaw in the thinking of many people. Radiation is NOT a virus...

I don't read Sandman as introducing the SARS example as an attempt to suggest radiation is a virus. In the most recent post, he specifically discussed SARS in answer to the question about Asian crisis responses. His site is a meta discussion about how information is presented in a crisis, not specifically about the the objective truth or falsity of the content.

Omae Mona, I recall you saying earlier something to the effect that we can't just assume "anything is possible". That's surely right. We know, for instance, that Fukushima won't put the moon out of orbit as an example I think you might also have mentioned. It's certain, though, that to have confidence in knowing what is possible, we must have confidence in our sources of information.

What Sandman points out, however, is that, even if authorities give out accurate information, they can lose total credibility if their presentation is flawed. There are many ways you can go wrong in handling information in a crisis and I think Sandman describes many of the problems which have afflicted Fukushima in that regard. What he also mentions, though, is how the poor handling of information by authorities can also compromise the credibility of those who agree with their risk assessments. I believe that is an important factor here.

OM, I think in your own judgement you do not believe that Fukushima is currently capable of producing any airborne threat outside the seclusion zone nor any threat to produce. I tend to agree with you. However, I don't think it is the responsibility of anyone who chooses not to consume Fukushima produce to give you a list of the concrete threats they believe it presents.

Many people will happily admit they don't have sufficient science education in this particular field to make their own judgements. In the absence of a credible authority whose judgements they do trust, it is very rational behaviour for such people to choose the course of action which limits their risk in a way they can understand.

That doesn't mean they think "anything can happen" but an admission that they don't know what could happen. More importantly, they don't have faith in the people who ought to be telling them what could happen. No-one warned the public in advance that tap water in Tokyo might register levels above those deemed officially safe for babies, nor that raised levels might be found in breast milk. No-one explained beforehand that official safety levels could be breached without causing health risks. When the public is told all this after the event, they are understandably suspicious.

The decision is made simple for people when it involves no significant sacrifice. Not eating Fukushima moyashi fits easily into that category. Indeed, the same calculation applies if you happen to think Fukushima moyashi is fine but your wife doesn't. It's easier not to buy it than try to have a discussion about safety and potential risks.

[omae mona]

Omae Mona, I recall you saying earlier something to the effect that we can't just assume "anything is possible". That's surely right. We know, for instance, that Fukushima won't put the moon out of orbit as an example I think you might also have mentioned. It's certain, though, that to have confidence in knowing what is possible, we must have confidence in our sources of information.

What Sandman points out, however, is that, even if authorities give out accurate information, they can lose total credibility if their presentation is flawed. There are many ways you can go wrong in handling information in a crisis and I think Sandman describes many of the problems which have afflicted Fukushima in that regard. What he also mentions, though, is how the poor handling of information by authorities can also compromise the credibility of those who agree with their risk assessments. I believe that is an important factor here.

I totally agree. I actually think Sandman's work is fascinating, and if I were in the business of crisis management, PR, or politics, I'd be paying a lot of attention. Managing people's perceptions has a big impact on elections and public policy down the road.

But personally, at the moment, I am mainly interested in the actual facts. Managing public outrage is somebody else's problem.

OM, I think in your own judgement you do not believe that Fukushima is currently capable of producing any airborne threat outside the seclusion zone nor any threat to produce. I tend to agree with you. However, I don't think it is the responsibility of anyone who chooses not to consume Fukushima produce to give you a list of the concrete threats they believe it presents.

Simply choosing not to consume the produce is a private decision, and I totally agree people who do so don't owe me a list of concrete reasons. But getting on the Internet and trying to spread fear of something (like Fukushima produce) is a different story, and is not a private decision. I don't think anybody starting fear-mongering has the right for their statements to go uncontested. The independent experts who say the food is safe have been responsible and provided concrete scientific reasons. Likewise, I think it is totally fair to demand at least a bit of supporting evidence from people who make the conscious choice to get online to spread their views on the opposite side.

Many people will happily admit they don't have sufficient science education in this particular field to make their own judgements. In the absence of a credible authority whose judgements they do trust, it is very rational behaviour for such people to choose the course of action which limits their risk in a way they can understand.

That doesn't mean they think "anything can happen" but an admission that they don't know what could happen. More importantly, they don't have faith in the people who ought to be telling them what could happen. No-one warned the public in advance that tap water in Tokyo might register levels above those deemed officially safe for babies, nor that raised levels might be found in breast milk. No-one explained beforehand that official safety levels could be breached without causing health risks. When the public is told all this after the event, they are understandably suspicious.

The decision is made simple for people when it involves no significant sacrifice. Not eating Fukushima moyashi fits easily into that category. Indeed, the same calculation applies if you happen to think Fukushima moyashi is fine but your wife doesn't. It's easier not to buy it than try to have a discussion about safety and potential risks.

I agree again. I don't think the government has handled the information flow well, at all. I thought it was disastrous from the start, and I know it has caused some people to become confused and distrustful. As you say, it's perfectly fair for individuals to simply avoid the situation they think is risky, especially for something as simple as avoiding Fukushima moyashi. Taking the next step of getting on the Internet and trying to spread the fear, though, is going well over the line.

[Typhoon]

Reading the uninformed, scientifically illiterate, fear mongering posts about Fukushima Daiichi spread across the internet made me realize that Idiocracy



is a contemporary documentary rather than a fiction about the future.

[Mulboyne]

...But getting on the Internet and trying to spread fear of something (like Fukushima produce) is a different story, and is not a private decision...

You see, I don't think Sarutaro was spreading fear or disinformation. He simply wrote this:

I bought moyashi from Fukushima by mistake. It made my wife go ballistic! I really must improve my kanji reading abilities...

This prompted you to ask him why it would have been a mistake and why his wife was worried. As far as I can see from the exchange above, this is mainly what annoyed Coligny.

Sarutaro wasn't saying such produce is a health risk or even recommending no-one else buys it. His wife doesn't want it in the house and I don't really think he owes anyone details of why she is concerned.

[Thug4Life]

[Yokohammer]

ALERT: Japan admits daily radioactive release from Fukushima at least 15,000% higher than previously announced-Blames calculation error

Oh for fuck's sake ... this is someone's personal and somewhat sensationalized blog (yours?), not a "reliable source."

Please post reliable sources.

[Thug4Life]

[Yokohammer]

[CrankyBastard]

[Coligny]

But this is a wholly different question than whether there are health risks from eating food, how big those risks are, and to whom they apply.

Tainted food, either recomanded not to be sold or forbidden to be sold has been already found. Raising suspicions on wether or not other tainted but -not found- had also been sold.

Yet what some people seem to be yearning for, strangely, is crisis management designed for an infectious disease.

And i'm the one being blamed for strawmans...
In infectious disease case, you quarantine people, here that would be more a case of massive recall due to potential risk.

There is a huge leap in logic from "who knows if we're getting the right information about the power plant" (a valid concern) to "the supermarket food is dangerous". From what I understand, even with the power plant becoming the worst case scenario, it would further take an amazing string of coincidences, horrible bad luck, a government and corporate conspiracy, and incredibly bizarre eating patterns (e.g. somebody who likes 800 pounds of lettuce per month, all bought from the same farm) all together to cause a meaningful health risk from eating something you buy in the supermarket.

Some of the crops from this region register levels of contamination where 2g of lettuce is equivalent to the max yearly intake for a child. Some tainted food found its way to the supermarket, nothing allows you to say that this kind of tainted products would NOT possibly also find their way to the public distribution channels. If you do state this scenario is impossible you are putting willfully people at risk by ignoring previous weeks events.

Everything I have read from people with a background in health physics states that the worst case radiation release from Fukushima is still orders of magnitude away from anything that would create a health risk in the food that has not been quarantined.

I would like to hear somebody, just once, give a detailed scenario, even pure speculation, about how a pack of moyashi in the supermarket could hurt us. The research has been around for decades that have specific numbers about how much radiation you need to absorb to increase your cancer risk. Let's say the typical person would be upset if their lifetime cancer risk increased by half a percent. Is that fair? Then somebody making the claim that supermarket moyashi is dangerous needs to look up the number for how much contamination is needed to cause that cancer risk, and explain how that much contamination (which, by the way, would be a HUGE amount AFAIK) could actually get onto supermarket shelves. Anybody, give me a scenario, like "the moyashi at the farm, which was outside the area deemed dangerous, was picked up by a crow, which flew it to the power plant, dipped it in the radioactive water on the ground, flew it back to the farm, dripping with plutonium, and dropped it off. Then it got delivered to Aeon".

Viruses work very differently than radiation. Not only is the spread of viruses more difficult to predict than radiation, but even a tiny amount of virus, once in a living organism, can reproduce and turn into a very major health problem. On the other hand, radiation does not reproduce. We know that tiny amounts just can't have an effect on health. And we know it's very, very difficult for very high amounts of it to get far away from the power plant. I really believe those few that are highly concerned about food safety are thinking in the entirely wrong paradigm. We've all seen the news of pandemics worldwide over our lifetimes, and some of us have been quite close to them. I understand the inclination to think of the Fukushima event in the same terms, because we are more familiar with pandemics. But I think that doing so leads to bad decision making.

Not eating crops from somewhere is NOT bad decision making, it's erring on the side of caution. The gulf of Tonkin, the bay of pigs, those were bad decision making...

And you're calling for potential scenarios only to call them strawman's after, so why lose time...

[Coligny]

You have just proven yourself to be the kind of person I suspected you were.

You're not even in the fucking country, are you? You're just an irresponsible panic monger.
Keep your armageddon fantasy to your deluded self.

.

dood, no offense, but you wuz a bit slow dere... the previous posts were looking out of a ScyFy channel late night made for tv broadcast...

I mean, the stuxnet virus crap was the final nail in the coffin for me...

[Yokohammer]

dood, no offense, but you wuz a bit slow dere... the previous posts were looking out of a ScyFy channel late night made for tv broadcast...

I mean, the stuxnet virus crap was the final nail in the coffin for me...

Yeah well ... I prefer to give people the benefit of the doubt for a while at least, because sometimes apparent raving loonies turn out to be worth listening to. This one just pushed me over the edge though, so no more listen.

[Samurai_Jerk]

[Thug4Life]

You may now go fuck yourself.

Fuck you very much. Since you obviously cannot read well, then you should just try to watch this video:

Gundersen Discusses Current Condition of Reactors, TEPCO Claim of "No Fission" in Fuel Pool

I guess you believe in Tepco and the Japanese Government cover up that is now going on, right? Yeah, that's typical of country bumpkins. Keep telling yourself that "Everything is OK, and I believe in the Japanese Government" and that THE MIGHTY JAPANESE will "stand up" again and all that ridiculous "Banzai" and "Ganbarimasu" crap. You're delusional. Meanwhile the rest of the world (i.e. "reality") has already started banning ALL exports from Japan. Soon they will ban Japanese people from entering other countries because they will be too highly radiated and/or too much of a risk. After that nations throughout the world will start deporting Japanese people even if they have foreign residency. Yeah, you might not agree, but I guarantee you this will happen soon. I live in China. And I cannot begin to tell you how much the Chinese truly hate the Japanese. The Koreans too. If they can find any reason to deport them, believe me, they will do it.

Well, go ahead and fucking stay there in that fucking shithole (is there any part of Japan that is not a fucking shithole?) I don't give a fuck. You'll wake up one morning and your fucking face will be green. Then you will be FATALLY FUCKED!

[omae mona]

You see, I don't think Sarutaro was spreading fear or disinformation. He simply wrote this:

This prompted you to ask him why it would have been a mistake and why his wife was worried. As far as I can see from the exchange above, this is mainly what annoyed Coligny.

Sarutaro wasn't saying such produce is a health risk or even recommending no-one else buys it. His wife doesn't want it in the house and I don't really think he owes anyone details of why she is concerned.

My subsequent posts were not directed at Sarutaro. He's not the one I thought was scaremongering. My original question to Sarutaro was fair, though, wasn't it? I am looking for legitimate health information as much as anybody else, and if his wife knows something I haven't heard about yet, I would love to know. I was just asking. I'm sure if this is a personal issue for Sarutaro he will decline to respond, which is fine. As you said, he's not the one saying there is a health risk.

[Yokohammer]

Well, go ahead and fucking stay there in that fucking shithole (is there any part of Japan that is not a fucking shithole?) I don't give a fuck. You'll wake up one morning and your fucking face will be green. Then you will be FATALLY FUCKED!

And there, as in the rest of your blathering tirade, you have revealed your true agenda.
You just hate Japan and all things Japanese.

Now, once more, for the last time, and with real feeling: go fuck yourself.