Confronting the Japanese

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Gai, I agree with what you're saying and as an American I'm really tired of listening to people bash my country.

That being said, I want to comment on WWII.

It is very foolish to make comments like we saved the day. MAYBE, they couldn't have done it without us but we couldn't have done it without them. I cannot express how oppossed I am to any comment that makes light of the British or Russian efforts in WWII. They gave their lives to win the war just like the Americans did and in greater numbers. They gave us our freedom and deserve full respect. When I see any Allied veteran of WWII my heart is so full of gratitude. How anybody could make light of what any of them did is beyond me. Do you know about how the Canadians fought so courageously in Italy? Do you how Americans and Australians were buried in the same mass graves in Okinawa? Not acknowledging what the rest of the world did and pretending we did it all makes Americans look like a bunch of morons.

No it does not. America was the deciding factor in WWII in Europe and most definitely Asia. We put an end to the Axis expansion. That is very, very clear. Did non-Americans fight courageously and die? Absolutely. However, the deciding factor and only reason the West won was due to the fighting done by US soldiers and by US equipment. That is the truth. This truth does not deny that other soldiers fought hard. However, let's not forget that without us that they would have been doomed. On the other hand, ultimately, America could have defeated Axis powers without direct support. The world should just deal with this and accept it and Americans should not be the slightest bit apologetic or understanding or charitable about what Americans accomplished in WWII. This same America is now confronting the same type of fascistic aggression today (in the form of Islamic fundamentalists). We should all be joining hands to bring those parts of the world forward economically, educationally and turn them into nations whose leaders do not support terrorism. Our European partners dither, however, just like they dithered with Hitler. In their view it is someone elses problem. Ever hear a solution offered by these idiot Euro-Fags? No. Neither have I.

[GargoyleTS]

Who is accusing you of being personally responsible? Certainly not people like me!! If people accuse you of this then isn't this their ignorance? No need to stoop to this level.

Gomi, I apologize if I offended you. It was late and I realize the sarcasm I intended to express was no where near properly expressed.

[cstaylor]

the deciding factor and only reason the West won was due to the fighting done by US soldiers and by US equipment.

Well, maybe built in America, but some were designed by foreigners...
Science for the atomic bomb: foreign born scientists (like Hungarian Leo Szilard)
Tank: Winston Churchill, English
Radar: Sir Watson-Watt, English
Submarine: Cornelius Van Drebel, Dutch

Others were American made:
Airplane: Wright brothers
Machine gun: Doctor Richard Gatling (yes, there's prior art from England, but it only fired 9 rounds a minute)

[Col.Kilgore]

Gai you the man! Tell the Euro fags/lefty elitists how it was, is, and will be. Admittedly America isn't perfect but the world (especially ungrateful Europe and Japan) is a whole lot better of because our boys triumphed in WWII AND, may I had, the totally ungrateful S.Koreans who would be livin' under Lil'Kim if it hadn't been for the thousands of Americans who died fighting THEIR war from 1950-53.....

One final point: Japanese women owe sooooooo much to Uncle Sam because just think what their position would be had Imperial Japan triumphed.... I always say this to J-women when they stsrt banging on about 'hidoi' America, etc.... shuts them up a treat!

[japslapper]

Americans Americans.....calm down.

In this thread there are some serious ignorance going on....

Does America police the world on its own?
No it doesnt - a few other countries pull their weight too. UK and Australia(offered to help werent asked) both contibuted a fair bit to the latest Iraq war - equal in terms of military might in ratio to national population. France and Germany winge and cause trouble but they always have.

Americas military did provide materials for the the UK etc in WW2 but it was an exchange that continues today. The US military has the Harrier Jet and T-45 jets which are from the UK among other things(the aircraft carrier was a British invention as was the Jet engine) - Your US SEALS were originally trained and set up by the SBS/SAS. Many other ocassions of cross training and exchange occur. Infact in the first Gulf War few American SF were involved - British and Australian SAS/SBS were used as forces of choice by Scwarzcoff because of supperior experience in desert warfare (look it all up in Schwarzcoffs book if you like....its true! )....

Americans have a problem with over nationalising many things - and its dangerous for you and us. Look at Hollywood they way they turn stories around for the (mainly American audience) ..."U45"?movie......the one about the WW2 subs starring Bon Jovi a British story turned American -
"Memphis Belle" an Aussie story turned American ...and so on. History is complex but should at least be told truthfully where ther truth is known

American military are not all success - look at Vietnam?

But that aside - Americans have a lot enemies(in the US population. too) but also some very close friends too who do their bit as equals not underdogs (though it may seem that way).....becarefull not to ignore the great contibution of other peoples to your own history.

Sure America is now Number 1 top dog and has been for 50years - but the world is changing and nation states are dissolving fast ....as Winston Churchill put it "The future empires will be the empires of the mind "

[cstaylor]

One final point: Japanese women owe sooooooo much to Uncle Sam because just think what their position would be had Imperial Japan triumphed...

On that historic note, have you ever asked a Japanese about the Meiji constitution? Most of them have neither heard of it, and those who have heard of it usually say, "furui!"

That's what the Japanese were living under during the second world war, what the leftovers in the Diet tried to push past MacArthur (albeit with a little rewording), but it wasn't until the Emperor pursueded the Diet to ratify the GHQ constitution that women were given equal rights (under the law at least).

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

the deciding factor and only reason the West won was due to the fighting done by US soldiers and by US equipment.

Well, maybe built in America, but some were designed by foreigners... ]

CS, this is another example of an American not understanding America. We are a nation of foreigners. Foreigners with desires and ability and with vision. So saying that such an such an invention was really made by a person of such an such nationality (e.g., Einstein) ignores the fact that these men traveled to America because of what America represented. Many may have been foreign born but they were Americans. That it what makes our country unique and powerful. Let's hope it stays that way and that we make sure our immigration policies serve this goal. By the way, Churchill's mom was a Yank. You should take him off your list or change the way you are looking at this. America is not a place, it is not a country. It is a mindset.

[cstaylor]

Well, those brilliant foreigners must have learned something in their home country.

I can't imagine what would have happened to the British had FDR not been President. That man did everything he could to assist the Brits, even in the face of Lindbergh's pathetic public shilling for the Nazis.

[japslapper]

Gaisaradatsuraku! wrote

America is not a place, it is not a country. It is a mindset.

He is right you know.....but then so are a lot of other people/places/nations....The Jews, The Irish.

America is unique that it became the dominant power in time for mass media - which will help make it more of a mentallity more than a place then any other "empire" from history


Americans shouldnt forget,however, that despite their successes - those successes stem from a whole load of contibutions from the many founding nations and people and those that continue to do so. Take language for instance : "English".

[GuyJean]

America is not a place, it is not a country. It is a mindset.

Interesting... So your gandmother, who was born in Japan, was an American even before she left Japan because she had the mindset to emmigrate there?

You're starting to sound like a loopy libby, Gai.

I've heard the 'melting pot' analogy quite a bit, but I've always thought the 'stew' metaphor works better; potatoes, carrots, and beef only soften, mix and accentuate the other's flavor after some time of boiling. I don't think most immigrants are instantly Americans because they desire to be there, or have the proper 'American way of thinking'. I think time is needed; time to learn, adapt, adopt, give, and receive.. Time to stew.. I'm hungry..

OK, back to the bong.

GJ

[Big Booger]

America is like a spicy burrito, once you try it, you'll have the shits for a week.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

America is not a place, it is not a country. It is a mindset.

Interesting... So your gandmother, who was born in Japan, was an American even before she left Japan because she had the mindset to emmigrate there?

You're starting to sound like a loopy libby, Gai.

I've heard the 'melting pot' analogy quite a bit, but I've always thought the 'stew' metaphor works better]

We couldn't disagree more. I think there are plenty of people who have never lived in America who are more American than many of us. I believe that a Vietnamese boat person who has floated at sea for weeks in a vain attempt to get to America through some third country understands far better than I do what America really means. How about you?

Furthermore, I think that there are many people who have been born and raised in America of American parents who don't have a clue. Who I think is an American may surprise you.

For example, Al Sharpton, though a moron, is an American. On the other hand, Ted Kennedy is not.

Also, I have said this before, but my grandfather was Japanese. He knew far better than I do about what was special about America. He disagreed with what Japan was doing in the lead up to WW2 and was fortunate enough to have lived in the US for several years before being called back to Japan. He knew what made this country special. He liked many things about Japan too, however, just not its form of government.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

[quote="&quot"]Americans Americans.....calm down.

In this thread there are some serious ignorance going on....

[quote]

Well, you are certainly adding to that mix.

[quote="&quot"]

Does America police the world on its own?
No it doesnt - a few other countries pull their weight too. UK and Australia(offered to help werent asked) both contibuted a fair bit to the latest Iraq war - equal in terms of military might in ratio to national population. France and Germany winge and cause trouble but they always have.

[quote]

The non-US forces are not really necessary. They are being used in an attempt to make it clearer that this is not a war of America vs. Iraq. The US doesn't need the UK or any other forces. It would be helpful if they are there, however, for political reasons. Make no mistake, however, that they are not actually necessary. On the other hand, there is no way that the UK, on its own, could have marched through Afghanistan or Iraq. You are in denial and undoubtedly you will view the above as some obnoxious American spouting off. No, it is just the truth. Learn to deal with it and understand that America is far more open and progressive than your own little backwater.



[quote="&quot"]


American military are not all success - look at Vietnam?

[quote]

You know that foreigners love to point this out. However, do you know who really lost in Vietnam? Have you thought about this? The answer is that the Vietnamese people lost in Vietnam and many have been hopping on rafts and going to extreme lengths to get out of town. Ever see an America rowing his way to Hanoi? No, neither have I.

[quote="&quot"]

But that aside - Americans have a lot enemies(in the US population. too) but also some very close friends too who do their bit as equals not underdogs (though it may seem that way).....becarefull not to ignore the great contibution of other peoples to your own history.

[quote]

How about some examples of our equals. Sorry to say but I just can't think of one. This doesn't make me, as an American, a better person than you. Let's not lose sight, however, of the only country that has the power to do basically whatever it wants and has not used it. Here is something for you to think about. Undoubtedly, many things about America irk you. You view us as arrogant, you dislike the fact that America, rather than your own country, is very influential in Japan, like subordinates sassing their bosses, you delight in pointing out the mistakes that you think America has made (and lose sight of the big picture by the way - eg, see Vietnam comments above). However, put together a list of Americas enemies down on paper. Imagine there was a war between America and its "enemies" and America lost. How long do you think it would be before your life changes dramatically? Would the change be positive or negative? If America lost, would you fear that these "enemies" might point their human bombs your way next? I expect your denial, however, will still continue.

[GuyJean]

I think there are plenty of people who have never lived in America who are more American than many of us.

I agree with this, for the most part. Just like I think most Buddhists are better Christians than most Christians..

But I also thought we were talking about something else.. You mentioned something about the US being the only reason for the world's medical, military, or democratic breakthroughs. When, in reality, these theories, or discoveries came from someone born in another country and then emmigrated to the States.. You don't think these people acquired ANY knowledge in their own country? And, as soon as they stepped foot in the States, they suddenly shed their nationalities and became pure-blooded Americans? I think it took time for them to feel, and to be accepted as Americans..

(BTW. People from South America call themselves Americans too, but for obvious different reasons.)

So by your definition, is Ichiro American?

GJ

[GuyJean]

Let's not lose sight, however, of the only country that has the power to do basically whatever it wants and has not used it.

You might be speaking too soon.. IMO.

GJ

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

Pathetic, Gaijean. That you can view deposing Saddam Hussein, a dictator straight out of the 19th century, as some sort of expansionism is truly remarkable.

[Gaisaradatsuraku!]

I think there are plenty of people who have never lived in America who are more American than many of us.

I agree with this, for the most part. Just like I think most Buddhists are better Christians than most Christians..

But I also thought we were talking about something else.. You mentioned something about the US being the only reason for the world's medical, military, or democratic breakthroughs. When, in reality, these theories, or discoveries came from someone born in another country and then emmigrated to the States.. You don't think these people acquired ANY knowledge in their own country? And, as soon as they stepped foot in the States, they suddenly shed their nationalities and became pure-blooded Americans? I think it took time for them to feel, and to be accepted as Americans..

(BTW. People from South America call themselves Americans too, but for obvious different reasons.)

So by your definition, is Ichiro American?

GJ

Whoa. Where does it say anywhere that America is the only place where great ideas have been born. You have completely misread what I have said.

[japslapper]

Americans Americans.....calm down.

In this thread there are some serious ignorance going on....

Well, you are certainly adding to that mix.

...how might I ask?
My original email contained a lot of facts and info which you hanvt responded to. Use facts not bloated opnion please

Does America police the world on its own?
No it doesnt - a few other countries pull their weight too. UK and Australia(offered to help werent asked) both contibuted a fair bit to the latest Iraq war - equal in terms of military might in ratio to national population. France and Germany winge and cause trouble but they always have.

The non-US forces are not really necessary. They are being used in an attempt to make it clearer that this is not a war of America vs. Iraq. The US doesn't need the UK or any other forces. It would be helpful if they are there, however, for political reasons. Make no mistake, however, that they are not actually necessary. On the other hand, there is no way that the UK, on its own, could have marched through Afghanistan or Iraq. You are in denial and undoubtedly you will view the above as some obnoxious American spouting off. No, it is just the truth. Learn to deal with it and understand that America is far more open and progressive than your own little backwater.

.Possibly afganhistan could have been done by the UK alone or with help..sure in Iraq your probably right (except for the help of a few UK/Aussie Special Forces(SAS/SBS)- which I understand were the SF of choice again by Gen.Clarke - and thats quoted from the US New York times )

We ofcourse know in Military terms (certainly in technology) that the US is number one - but other countries can contribute- you know I have first hand info - I have a cousin who is a Major in your US Marines (actually was in Iraq for a bit) and another cousin on the other side of the family who is a British Royal Marines Captain. They have both said independantly that the Americans are over equiped and the Brits over trained. US and UK forces often cross train and there are areas where sometimes US are not the best or most experienced - such as urban anti terroism and mountain warfare - actually my American cousin told me - the CIA are trained in urban antiterroism by the British Army in Germany. I am not bullshitting you - look it up Its true

it and understand that America is far more open and progressive than your own little backwater.

....we know and we accept it! Actually most British want to support America and even copy - but my own little back water still has some influence and actually uses to help you! (sometimes by opposing US ideas)

How many countries Stick up for you everytime?(not many ) not because we need to (look at the french) - because in principle we aggree.

And your thing on progressive - I would generally agree with that - but sometimes it goes the other way - depends who you are, and what your trying to do.
Some things I would say life in the UK is better - depends.

Ever see an America rowing his way to Hanoi? No, neither have I.

no your right....but I suppose an American world take business class United

How about some examples of our equals. Sorry to say but I just can't think of one. This doesn't make me, as an American, a better person than you. Let's not lose sight, however, of the only country that has the power to do basically whatever it wants and has not used it. Here is something for you to think about. Undoubtedly, many things about America irk you. You view us as arrogant, you dislike the fact that America, rather than your own country, is very influential in Japan, like subordinates sassing their bosses, you delight in pointing out the mistakes that you think America has made (and lose sight of the big picture by the way - eg, see Vietnam comments above). However, put together a list of Americas enemies down on paper. Imagine there was a war between America and its "enemies" and America lost. How long do you think it would be before your life changes dramatically? Would the change be positive or negative? If America lost, would you fear that these "enemies" might point their human bombs your way next? I expect your denial, however, will still continue.

I have already aggreed with you on the miltary bit - no equals. But then if America did what it wanted/could there would be a Nuclear holocaust - actually America is victory in pieces on the board but in terms of position its a stalemate on that one. If America lost - yup we would be shitting ourselves - beacuse we have put our cards on the table and fought the same wars as you.

Things that irq my about America? - nothing really. Maybe the fact that your drive on the right/wrong side of the road

Influence Japan? - sure Americas number one ecconomy and nearest neighbour going East - no problem and anyway with the globablised ecconomy (thankyou America ) its product V product and nothing to do with nationality. I notice German cars are the only foreign cars here - Beckham is "sama" - but yes they do play/work baseball...


Actually - I have stayed in the US quite alot - I did 6months of high school -it was great. Americans are fun and esay going and there is so much space cool!. However I reaslised that it, too wasnt perfect - there are some things I thought better and other things which were worse. One thing that worried me was the line between Patriotism and Nationalism. In schools American flags etc everywhere etc - sure have pride but keep it balanced- with that keep proportion. the new world which America helped in a big way - is based on human rights and freedoms - nationality and stuff is not so important now......

B.Franklin said - "the duty of everyone in a democracy is to question authority".......I notice that graet American idea is done with more penache else where - just a point.

[GuyJean]

Pathetic, Gaijean. That you can view deposing Saddam Hussein, a dictator straight out of the 19th century, as some sort of expansionism is truly remarkable.

Pathetic, Gai. That you can be blinded by right-wing rhetoric, straight out of the 19th century, that this power vaccum in Iraq is making the world a safer place.

(I'm not saying Saddham is good. I think he should've been deposed.. But the method and planning should've been MUCH better)

GJ

[japslapper]

double posting gommene

[Alcazar]

Gai just made some very good points about America, some of which will be too intellectual and well thought out to register with everyone.

America and Americans are great. I only have one gripe about Americans, and that is when some Americans know NOTHING about the outside world. You know, the ones who think Italy is 'Somewhere in Texas'. However, you only tend to meet these very ignorant Americans within America, not the traveling ones.

The ones traveling overseas generally have a bit more knowledge-Hey, they are actually aware enough of the outside world that they 'know' there is an outside world to travel to......good sign there.

But really, this 'average American' ignorance of the outside world would not be hard to change into enlightenment. A few more world geography lessons in the high school syllabus instead of those mindless spelling bees would really help. And also a focus on world history would help, not just the Civil War.

However the educated Americans who make the decisions within government, business etc, are generally more worldy, so maybe it doesn't matter? So what if the peasant's mental map of the world only includes the home, school, workplace, mall (workplace again), and the ballpark? Kidding!!

[GuyJean]

Whoa. Where does it say anywhere that America is the only place where great ideas have been born.

I try to read between the lines:

- Without America you would be living under some form of fascist goverment.
- Our economy leads the world in science, the arts, space travel, and medicine.
- Like it or not WE are the future.
- America was the deciding factor in WWII in Europe and most definitely Asia.
- We put an end to the Axis expansion.
- the only reason the West won was due to the fighting done by US soldiers and by US equipment.
- Ever hear a solution offered by these idiot Euro-Fags?
- Many may have been foreign born but they were Americans.

*note -These are taken out of context. Gai also ackowledged:

- Did non-Americans fight courageously and die? Absolutely.
- This truth does not deny that other soldiers fought hard. However, let's not forget that without us that they would have been doomed.

OK. I'm done..

GJ

[GuyJean]

However the educated Americans who make the decisions within government, business etc, are generally more worldy, so maybe it doesn't matter?

You're joking right. What countries did Bush visit before becoming president? Canada and Mexico.. And that was probably to score some coke or see a donkey show..

GJ

[japslapper]

....one thing that deffinately puts America behind along with their friends in Arabia is the number of God bothers.

In my 6 month US High School experience(Wincons.) Evolution was considered possible by maybe less than 10% of the class. Even in Science the teacher believed in Adam and Eve! In Britain the God bothers are thankfully an increasing minority ( More practising muslims than Chritians!). Your coins have "Trust in God" on them (the UK has Dieu et Mon Doit - and nobody can understand that - its French!).

The Scandanavians I rekon are the most advanced on earth - religion is private and humanity is more important - and their standard of living is the best etc.

When people realise religion is a joke - maybe then there will be more sanctity in life - more peace, less war etc

[Alcazar]

I only have one gripe about Americans, and that is when some Americans know NOTHING about the outside world. You know, the ones who think Italy is 'Somewhere in Texas'.

What was I thinking! (Slaps head) Of course Italy is in Texas! Kids lets go!

'Better get there to see where Caesar (important salad pioneer) and Christopher Columbus are buried. Plus we can see where "Gladiator" was filmed millions of years ago'.