one more advice - level up my japanese?

[tone]

hi there

one more question to you guys - who have been super helpful in my considering things in coming back to Tokyo to help with my wifes poor ailing dad in his last days or year of Lou Gherigs

I work in Advertising with a semi-rare skill.... and speak ok japanese, but with like JLPT3 level grammer (so its barely ok)

theres a class at the local uni thats like a crash course 4 hours a day for 8 wks thing that would be perfect timing for the run up to packing and leaving - thats kind of dipping into JLPT 2 stuff, its basically 3rd yr college material in one dense qtr. I went to a day of it, and its super useful. thing is, its $3k, and this could be my last summer in a wonderful city here in the NW of the US.

Also, at times I have made speeches about how if i ever came back to Japan, I would pretend to speak no Japanese to avoid getting sucked into all the passive aggressive reading between the lines and J expectations.

I know this class would help me understand more fluff around me, and this will be the first time i have lived in japan able to read as much Kanji as I can now - I hated that part of living there yrs ago. couldn't read shite when it came to all the important things it seemed.

what do you guys think about the job market, and how language skills would factor in. Granted I'm not in the financial sector and might have to work in a more Japanese environment, as the gaijin guy. but here, so much of my work is being able to understand and communicate ideas, thats why i was worried about going over there with my level 3 japanese game...

is a tough call because its just getting nice (worked a bunch as a freelancer all winter and was planning on taking summer off anyway)

sorry for the long one - thanks much

[damn name]

"...so much of my work is being able to understand and communicate ideas, thats why i was worried about going over there with my level 3 japanese game..."

Since you "communicate" in English like a 12-year old, and think like one too, you'll probably be wildly successful here. Go ahead and "level up" your Japanese. You might be able to get a high-paying advertising job delivering chirashi, or Executive Vice-President of Dentsu.

(I apologize for my foul mood today, but a high level of baka radiation has contaminated the internet recently. It's been more contaminated than a TEPCO board meeting, which is Level Eight on the international Baka Internet Technology Contamination Hierarchy (BITCH) scale.)

[tone]

[Greji]

what do you guys think about the job market, and how language skills would factor in. Granted I'm not in the financial sector and might have to work in a more Japanese environment, as the gaijin guy. but here, so much of my work is being able to understand and communicate ideas, thats why i was worried about going over there with my level 3 japanese game

The toughest thing to learn in Japanese is "I don't understand!" The longer and better you learn to speak it, the harder this simple admission gets. This becomes extremely important in business. People get embarrassed (they will think I don't speak the language), or maybe have a false pride in their own language ability, or for whatever reason, just cannot say it. A lot of times in a business meeting you may completely miss the whole thrust of a business deal if you don't understand one, or more of the of the main points being discussed. If you cannot ask at that exact moment, you make a note and ask at the earliest opportune moment. But that goes back to your question. I have said on this board before (and got great red goobers for posting it) that the Japanese levels 1, 2, 2 and 1/2 etc., mean little to nothing to the Japanese. It really is only used in the educational field and some foreign companies/governments, but rarely outside of education circles. The Japanese do not care about your scores of language recommendations. They call you in for an interview (under any guise) and evaluate your Japanese themselves.

So in a nutshell, what i'm saying is take any and all courses you can. You are not trying to satisfy a school requirement and you don't need to pass JPR level 99.1. You want to speak the language. So the more exposure is better.

Reading and writing.
The more reading and writing you do, the better. Companies hold this highly in skills for a prospective applicant. There are literally millions of fgs in the land of four seasons that can speak and understand reasonable Japanese. That number falls greatly when you add reading and writing. Granted that writing has fallen off greatly with the advent of the computer age. However, when you are studying the language, the space bar is your worst enemy. Write the kanji until you have memorized each one by stroke order and meaning. That is not only a word(s) of vocabulary that will etch into your rote memory, but will lead into the zillions of kanji combinations which keep increasing with the more that you learn. Sometimes the recognition of only one or two kanji may hold the key to understanding an otherwise completely unintelligible document. It is a great and highly marketable skill, the better at which you become, the more marketable you will become!

You say your field is advertising. Like most countries, there are a lot of major Japanese firms with international connections around that are always looking for qualified fg applicants, the keyword being qualified, which is a word for which, the Japanese have their own definition. Being able to understand the language, especially reading it will satisfy most of this. Now, getting in the front door to present your credentials is a different and varied story.

Hope this helps

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

I guarantee you are not going to get any better advice than what Greji has written above.

Except -- DO NOT WASTE $3K ON LESSONS! Get here, get speaking, get reading and get writing and you will learn more in a couple of weeks than however many thousands of dollars you spend to sit in a classroom out of this cuntry.

Enjoy your work-free summer: the job market here is fucked and the employment landscape in advertising without connections makes Tohoku look like the Promised Land.

But, being in advertising, you're good at bullshit, so you shouldn't have too many problems getting something.

I'm not good at bullshit and I haven't worked in more than three years, which has allowed me to pursue expertise in bullshit about Japan. But I still probably won't ever find another job in this cuntry. Some mitigating circumstances apply, but brace yourself for a tough job market whatever way, especially without the language. Anyway, enough of my personal bullshit...maybe I can work in advertising after all?

[tone]

thx for replies

what greji wrote is exactly what i was thinking. its the new economy, where degrees are only marginally helpful, often as a weed out measure for more lower skill sales and middle management jobs. people just want to know "what can you do for me today"

i know, the $3k is a bit - but its tax deductible here and provides some pressure to study harder than just reading books on grammar and doing lots of kanji pracky (has totally helped though)

i'm just trying to be better at it than i was when i first showed up in 2001

yeah advertising is weird - dont get me started. i should say, i do mostly VFX and animation type stuff for video and TV, which so far, even in my non-hollywood town has been very solid despite the economy just because finding decent people is hard i guess - i know i will make waay less in tokyo, if i can even find work at first

i feel for the first guy to reply - there are so many idiot japanophiles romanticizing coming to japan, or being total anime otaku geeks. i'm trying to do things right but i know its going to be weird and hard - situation is tough that i'm in

[tone]

seems like no one is saying using the language can hurt you - unless its super beginner self taught stuff that makes no sense or is incorrect

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Definitely learn the language. I don't know what people are doing here if they ca't speak it, though doing so is easy enough and there are few Japanese who will admonish you if you can't.
Still reckon you're wasting your money going to language classes. Look up shite online and read it. There's plenty of Japanese language education materials online....Fuck, I'll teach you privately if you give me $3K. The only 3K I have seen recently has been kitanai, kiken, kitsui (and even that phrase isn't used anymore...)

[CrankyBastard]

seems like no one is saying using the language can hurt you - unless its super beginner self taught stuff that makes no sense or is incorrect

tone, don't sweat it.

Just click on that little hinomaru button at the top of the page next to the welcome message.
See! There's not a one of us can make a coherent sentence in Japanese!

[Russell]

thx for replies

what greji wrote is exactly what i was thinking. its the new economy, where degrees are only marginally helpful, often as a weed out measure for more lower skill sales and middle management jobs. people just want to know "what can you do for me today"

i know, the $3k is a bit - but its tax deductible here and provides some pressure to study harder than just reading books on grammar and doing lots of kanji pracky (has totally helped though)

i'm just trying to be better at it than i was when i first showed up in 2001

yeah advertising is weird - dont get me started. i should say, i do mostly VFX and animation type stuff for video and TV, which so far, even in my non-hollywood town has been very solid despite the economy just because finding decent people is hard i guess - i know i will make waay less in tokyo, if i can even find work at first

i feel for the first guy to reply - there are so many idiot japanophiles romanticizing coming to japan, or being total anime otaku geeks. i'm trying to do things right but i know its going to be weird and hard - situation is tough that i'm in

You can greatly improve your chances to land a decent job here if you can get a recommendation or introduction from your current customers or employer. Don't know how that works in the advertising field, though.

Regarding Japanese language, I basically agree with Greiji, but forget about being able to write Kanji by hand, because your time is more efficiently used by just memorizing them. This may differ from person to person, so see what works best for you.

You are of course free to use your $3k for classes over there, but there are lots of opportunities to study Japanese in Japan, often for a low or zero fee; for example culture centers have usually volunteers willing to give individual lessons. If you like a structured environment like a class room, that may work less well for you, though.

You know you will have graduated in Japanese if people start asking why you did not get the Japanese nationality yet. It means you have become part of the furniture. You did not make the grade when the question is when you will return to your country.

Good luck!

[Greji]

but forget about being able to write Kanji by hand, because your time is more efficiently used by just memorizing them.

Good post Russ and I go along with you except I differ on the above. When you are writing you are memorizing even though you may just be thinking of stroke order. You are also re-enforcing the radicals into total rote memory and what are most kanji, but radicals strung together. Writing has intense merit in memory. But as you say it might not work for some people....

Cheers,

The lone goat groper...

[nikoneko]

I agree with this too. Learning to write properly helps you to figure out many more kanji linked to the original you learned to write. And as you say it really enforces them in your memory. The other (small) bonus is you can read some calligraphy. Also it is very important when writing by hand to use proper stroke order or it makes it hard for people to read.

Good post Russ and I go along with you except I differ on the above. When you are writing you are memorizing even though you may just be thinking of stroke order. You are also re-enforcing the radicals into total rote memory and what are most kanji, but radicals strung together. Writing has intense merit in memory. But as you say it might not work for some people....

[Russell]

I agree with this too. Learning to write properly helps you to figure out many more kanji linked to the original you learned to write. And as you say it really enforces them in your memory. The other (small) bonus is you can read some calligraphy. Also it is very important when writing by hand to use proper stroke order or it makes it hard for people to read.

I must admit that I am not extremely well-versed in reading "dirty" hand-written Japanese, though I have a reasonable sense of stroke order.
Learning the Kanji by pattern worked well for me because I am kind of visually oriented. I certainly do have a sense of radicals, because you need that to search in dictionaries. Auditory oriented people, on the other hand, tend to be good in memorizing sequences (according to some theory), so for them practicing "stroking" may be best.

So, I guess Greiji and Nikoneko should be classified as "strokers".

[Greji]

[quote="Russell"]
So, I guess Greiji and Nikoneko should be classified as "strokers". ]I would fell better if you refer to me as a Wanker and leave the stroking to Cat......

[nikoneko]

Absolutely no problems here being designated as a pussy stroker...

[tone]

haha

yeah its a fine line between knowing whats going on and being able to maybe make some money, and being a full blown dave spektor or tanaka ken guy in a bathrobe and sandals

agreed on the admitting when one doesnt understand something - how to go about saying it well, otherwise risking people's faith that you didnt understand a damn thing they just said

[Greji]

agreed on the admitting when one doesnt understand something - how to go about saying it well, otherwise risking people's faith that you didnt understand a damn thing they just said

That is what I'm saying. You have to remember the J-deep seated belief that nobody but J-folk can really really understand their unique language. The bad thing is in business is if you miss a point that impacts on your work and the success, or failure of your accomplishments in the deal, or project. Just remember that even if you don't ask, they are not really going to have that "faith" that you understand. So ask!

Back to whether to write, or not write. Studying is like fucking, everybody has their own style and some styles are better than others. What's important is getting that final great shot in right at the end....For me, writing was and is important (at least in studying!)

[tone]

i like your style bro - thanks for the honesty. hopefully i find the right people to work with, that will make a difference i bet - not looking forward to any misunderstandings that do happen though...

[Ganma]

.For me, writing was and is important (at least in studying!)

I agree with Greji here. I spent many nerdy days and nights writing down all the new words I learned in a little notebook, first the kanji and then in kana. I hardly ever write by hand these days but I can read 98% of the kanji I come across now and I'm sure the writing helped to ingrain them in my brain.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Add my voice to the growing support for writing and rote memorization of kanji.

[Mike Oxlong]

Was drinking tonight with two guys whose Japanese reading & writing abilities are far superior to mine...they too belong to the Greji school of thought on the matter.

[Samurai_Jerk]

tone,

You're committing career suicide.

Anyway, I know you want to enjoy your last summer in the city you live in but I think the better question to ask yourself is can you afford to spend the $3000. If so, take the class. You've already checked it out and liked it so it's a no brainer. If it's going to be a financial burden, save that money for when you get to Japan and have to start looking for a job. You might be out of work for a long time.

BTW, I agree with SDH if you're the kind of person who does well with self study. I'm not, so I always get a lot more our of a well-taught class.

[tone]

yeah all good points...

i'll be fine. my career isnt as much of a moss back, "took forever to get to this spot", type of a deal as other jobs. its a little more job to job anyway, so i'm not burning some seniority or anything. in my field its kind of having a decent body of work under your belt and then finding places that need one or a few of me.

but yeah, i'm not expecting it to be gangbusters over there. met with a few J dudes my last time back, will see. has the economy really taken a beating since 3/11?

but yeah it will be a bummer to leave whats been a pretty good life here for "sumimasen, sore wa chotto muri desune" and bad pizza

[Samurai_Jerk]

bad pizza

Don't worry. You're from the North West. You wouldn't know good pizza if it bit you in the ass.

By the way, if you're doing freelance creative work, is it possible to work remotely from Japan for clients in the US that already know you? Even if it's just for awhile till you line up enough work in Japan it beats living off of savings or teaching Engrish (Though if your posts here are indicative of your English ability you might want to study English rather than teach it). If the nature of your work does allow you to be offsite, maybe you could focus on the region rather than just picking up work in Japan.

[Russell]

I would fell better if you refer to me as a Wanker and leave the stroking to Cat......

Mmm...
I prefer to keep the honorific "wanker" for my own type of people.

[tone]

haha jesus christ - lets not get get into a referendum on my english

forums like this are weird bastard children between writing and speaking.

also i think there are circles of hell regarding bad pizza and seattle is not very deep into pizza hell i would say - not the top but maybe only 1-3 clicks down.

yup - we'll see how many of those clients are cool with working with me that way or just look for 30man work my ass off situation like nearly everyone else in the country