Child Abduction Issue Explodes

[Ganma]

I didn't say I think it's "ok". It's typically best for a child to be raised by both parents. But I will say that I certainly don't find this parental "child abduction," issue to be one for courts or governments to get involved in at all, much less for a decision made in one country to influence another country's opinion on the matter or spur them to any sort of action.



Why? Just because people from two countries decide to breed, we need some sort of international judicial organization to manage their relationship? Or, as others have proposed, some sort of additional red tape at the airports or passport agencies? Ridiculous. Make these international couples take care of their own lives!

A government's job in a democracy is to protect and ensure the well being of its citizens, especially the children. In a perfect world parents look after and have their children's best interests at heart, but sadly in the real world that is not always the case. That is where social welfare and the courts come into play. When an international marriage goes off the rails things get more complicated. It becomes an 'international' problem. That is why to insure fairness and the well being of children involved an international agreement between countries is necessary where decisions made in the court of one country are respected in another.

[maraboutslim]

That is why to insure fairness and the well being of children involved an international agreement between countries is necessary where decisions made in the court of one country are respected in another.

And what if the countries simply disagree on what is best for the well being of the children? As long as we want to support the concept of dual citizenship, then we're going to have to accept that courts are going to be powerless in enforcing custody/residency declarations about said dual citizens because each nation has no jurisdiction over the others citizens (when on home soil).

[matsuki]

And what if the countries simply disagree on what is best for the well being of the children?

Problem for FG in Japan is that the Japanese courts seem to always agree that the best thing for the child is to be with the J-mama or J-papa. That kind od BS doesn't fly in most civilized countries but then TIJ. Even with a reasonable judge however, considering what is actually agreed upon in Japan is rarely enforced, it's not always about disagreeing what is best for the child but the lack of enforcement of such agreements that causes problems in here.

[Mulboyne]

Now, why would the Japanese spouse and their family do this? How often do you think this happens to a husband that doesn't deserve it?

I think your comment there illuminates how you approach this issue. I have no problem imagining a case where grandparents want to keep the son-in-law they never liked away from their grandchild if their daughter dies. It's even a major plot strand in a best-selling novel in the US. I certainly have no problem imagining a spouse wanting to keep a former partner away. We wouldn't need courts to make decisions about custody and visitation rights if everything naturally worked out well.

I don't know if you saw my post earlier in this thread when you made similar points. I'll quote myself to save you looking back (and make myself feel important):

It's not a question of spite. Some Japanese parents - not just wives - think it normal for the kids to go with one parent. Often, they'll even split the kids as happened with former Prime Minister Koizumi. He's never even met the one son his wife was pregnant with when they divorced and that's by his choice. He took the other kids and hasn't let his former wife see them.

Some here will know foreign friends who married a second time to a Japanese wife and found that their new partner sometimes feels threatened by the way their husband wants to maintain contact with his kids from the first relationship.

Some of these ways of thinking carry over from Japan's history of inheritance disputes. Parents wanted to establish a pecking order for any children, a matter complicated by the fact that children born with mistresses were common, especially in better-off families.

You often see parents who have been excluded from their children's lives being blamed for failing to maintain a good relationship with their former partner. That may be a factor in some cases but it ignores the fact that, more often that not, the conflict has arisen precisely because one believes the children need to see both parents while the other believes its necessary to break all contact. No amount of goodwill is going to close that gap and it's disingenuous to believe that one side or the other must be at fault for bringing about such a state of affairs.

This isn't just an issue for international couples. Attitudes frequently differ among Japanese couples. Usually its the partner from the richer or well-connected family who ends up calling the shots and there's nothing the other can usually do about it. It's not the case that families work things out consensually in the absence of government intervention. The lack of legal arbitration in Japan just means the law of the jungle prevails. Koizumi's wife wanted to see her other children but her ex-husband didn't allow it.

[IparryU]

When I was discussing divorce with the in-laws they automatically assumed that I was just going to disappear... The dad started getting rowdy about it cause I "didn't know the Japanese way" put quickly put him in his place cause his dad is Korean so he wouldn't "know the Japanese way either".

Then they were saying that I am not able to take care of the kids, so I asked the dad if he himself could take care of kids if it were him and he quickly said yes. Then I asked how many times he change my wife's diapers, gave her baths, etc. and he said that he couldn't cause they were twins and he had work... and I answered back that I work a day job and night job, drop off my son at daycare every morning, change both son's diapers, play with them, etc. so how could he say that when I have already done much more than he has and why he didn't help his wife out when there were twins... silence.

It ended up that he had his back against the wall and threatened to call the police, so I just picked up their phone and called 110 and asked them to talk to my father-in-law as he wanted to call the police on me. He quickly apologized to them, hung up, then the mom came in and said that he was out of line and lets stop this conversation for now.

Not to mention the twin sister jumping in to help her dad out... when she herself never takes care of her daughter and relies on her mom to do all the work while she goes out and whores the town. She made a comment about my parenting and I quickly asked her where her baby's dad was and why does the daughter call him by his family name (eg Tanaka-kun)... she started to rebuttal then she just shut herself down after I started to bring up more incriminating stuff on her and her "parenting".

So back to maraboutslim's run on about the Japs being so liberal about this situation... I can see your standpoint, so it is either that your logic is that of a Japanese (meaning you are one or just retarded) or you are just playing the devil's advocate.

So WTF is all that BS about? seriously, though.

[matsuki]

When I was discussing divorce with the in-laws they automatically assumed that I was just going to disappear... The dad started getting rowdy about it cause I "didn't know the Japanese way" put quickly put him in his place cause his dad is Korean so he wouldn't "know the Japanese way either".

Then they were saying that I am not able to take care of the kids, so I asked the dad if he himself could take care of kids if it were him and he quickly said yes. Then I asked how many times he change my wife's diapers, gave her baths, etc. and he said that he couldn't cause they were twins and he had work... and I answered back that I work a day job and night job, drop off my son at daycare every morning, change both son's diapers, play with them, etc. so how could he say that when I have already done much more than he has and why he didn't help his wife out when there were twins... silence.

It ended up that he had his back against the wall and threatened to call the police, so I just picked up their phone and called 110 and asked them to talk to my father-in-law as he wanted to call the police on me. He quickly apologized to them, hung up, then the mom came in and said that he was out of line and lets stop this conversation for now.

Not to mention the twin sister jumping in to help her dad out... when she herself never takes care of her daughter and relies on her mom to do all the work while she goes out and whores the town. She made a comment about my parenting and I quickly asked her where her baby's dad was and why does the daughter call him by his family name (eg Tanaka-kun)... she started to rebuttal then she just shut herself down after I started to bring up more incriminating stuff on her and her "parenting".

Wow...why did you marry this girl again?

[IparryU]

Wow...why did you marry this girl again?

ever seen the movie "knocked up"?
I just didn't want to leave my kid (now kids) and took my responsibility. She is a good mom, I give her that, but despite our own disputes we are good in the bed together... so that kept us stable for a while.. on and off.

shit just dont work out between people sometimes, we have different priorities and our personalities are just... opposite. despite that though, i could only hope for custody once a month...

[Samurai_Jerk]

ever seen the movie "knocked up"?

Ever hear of abortion?

Now that the kids are born it's a moot point but knocking someone up is never an excuse for getting married and having kids.

I know you're Mexican but please don't tell me you're one of those hypocrit Catholics who isn't Christian when it comes to fucking but suddenly becomes one when a your girl is pregnant.

[IparryU]

Ever hear of abortion?

Now that the kids are born it's a moot point but knocking someone up is never an excuse for getting married and having kids.

I know you're Mexican but please don't tell me you're one of those hypocrit Catholics who isn't Christian when it comes to fucking but suddenly becomes one when a your girl is pregnant.

no but killin a kid cause you don't want to step up to the plate is bullshit. i wouldn't mind killin some kid if they shooting at me or were throwing hand grenades, but a kid that I made don't need to be killed cause I don't want to take care of it.

anyone, man or woman, IMO should be stripped of their reproductive organs if they want an abortion. if you don't want an outcome, don't do shit that my make it. it aint a computer or car where if you fuck up you can always "fix" it by takin something out or redoing it again, it is life, don't take it away if you don't want to give it out.

[Samurai_Jerk]

no but killin a kid cause you don't want to step up to the plate is bullshit. i wouldn't mind killin some kid if they shooting at me or were throwing hand grenades, but a kid that I made don't need to be killed cause I don't want to take care of it.

anyone, man or woman, IMO should be stripped of their reproductive organs if they want an abortion. if you don't want an outcome, don't do shit that my make it. it aint a computer or car where if you fuck up you can always "fix" it by takin something out or redoing it again, it is life, don't take it away if you don't want to give it out.

Bringing a kid into an unhealth, unstable realtionship is worse. Trust me I know. My parents had 4 and we're all fucked.

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Bringing a kid into an unhealth, unstable realtionship is worse. Trust me I know. My parents had 4 and we're all fucked.

Your parents had four unhealthy, unstable relationships?
Sounds like the inner workings of my mind...

[matsuki]

no but killin a kid cause you don't want to step up to the plate is bullshit. i wouldn't mind killin some kid if they shooting at me or were throwing hand grenades, but a kid that I made don't need to be killed cause I don't want to take care of it.

anyone, man or woman, IMO should be stripped of their reproductive organs if they want an abortion. if you don't want an outcome, don't do shit that my make it. it aint a computer or car where if you fuck up you can always "fix" it by takin something out or redoing it again, it is life, don't take it away if you don't want to give it out.

I think his other point was that stepping up to the plate didn't have to involve getting married to her. You can be a father to the child without signing your life over and moving in. If she's that volatile a person then having space might actually have been more ideal than the mess you've signed up for.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Your parents had four unhealthy, unstable relationships?

My parents had a lot more than that.

[maraboutslim]

Mulboyne, good post and I understand your points. I also think that this is something that should be clear to any non-Japanese who has kids with a Japanese and should be factored into their decision making. Instead people want to go ahead with it, and then try to fight this way of thinking if/when the marriage goes wrong. It's a rough situation but I guess I just would rather see more advocacy for the concept of divorced fathers still being involved in their children's lives and less time spent on trying to force such a cultural shift by law or international treaty.

[matsuki]

Mulboyne, good post and I understand your points. I also think that this is something that should be clear to any non-Japanese who has kids with a Japanese and should be factored into their decision making. Instead people want to go ahead with it, and then try to fight this way of thinking if/when the marriage goes wrong. It's a rough situation but I guess I just would rather see more advocacy for the concept of divorced fathers still being involved in their children's lives and less time spent on trying to force such a cultural shift by law or international treaty.

Prenuptial? How far can you go without offending your potential spouse?

Many places in the world have shitty methods of dealing with divorce. Hell, my own state of California has some particularly outdated alimony laws. Of course everyone getting married here should know what the possibility of divorce to a J-national entails but disagreeing with it won't stop most people from signing over everything to "we Japanese."

[Ganma]

[SIZE="4"]Preparations to join Hague child custody pact kick off[/SIZE]

Kyodo
Government officials, lawyers and academics held a meeting Wednesday to begin preparations for Japan to join an international treaty that sets procedures for settling cross-border child custody disputes.

[Samurai_Jerk]

[SIZE="4"]Preparations to join Hague child custody pact kick off[/SIZE]

ATTN: Japanese Women

If you want to abduct your children from your shiftless gaijin ex-husband, now is the time to do it. Don't wait till it's too late!

[Mulboyne]

...I also think that this is something that should be clear to any non-Japanese who has kids with a Japanese and should be factored into their decision making. Instead people want to go ahead with it, and then try to fight this way of thinking if/when the marriage goes wrong...

There is a danger there of putting the onus only on the foreign parent to give ground. It takes two to tango and you could equally argue that any Japanese national having children with a foreign partner should understand what their expectations would be in the event of a split. Why only see the foreign parent as the one trying to "fight this way of thinking"?

You might even argue that the onus is more on the Japanese spouse who has moved overseas to live. All of the Japanese parents accused of abductions have done that by definition. You also described in one of your earlier posts how you disapprove of people who seem to want their own laws to trump Japanese laws. That's not really the case. Instead they want local laws to have the same status as Japanese laws such that Japanese nationals can no longer ignore them with impunity.

[IparryU]

There is a danger there of putting the onus only on the foreign parent to give ground. It takes two to tango and you could equally argue that any Japanese national having children with a foreign partner should understand what their expectations would be in the event of a split. Why only see the foreign parent as the one trying to "fight this way of thinking"?

You might even argue that the onus is more on the Japanese spouse who has moved overseas to live. All of the Japanese parents accused of abductions have done that by definition. You also described in one of your earlier posts how you disapprove of people who seem to want their own laws to trump Japanese laws. That's not really the case. Instead they want local laws to have the same status as Japanese laws such that Japanese nationals can no longer ignore them with impunity.

well said

The envisioned legislation would indicate that children will not have to be returned when the parent has fled from an abusive spouse or could face criminal prosecution in his or her country of habitual residence.


The Justice Ministry's Legislative Council will meet twice monthly and examine overseas cases to determine which instances should be considered as exceptions to the return of a child.


According to the pact, children will not be returned only when there is "a grave risk that his or her return would expose the child to physical or psychological harm or otherwise place the child in an intolerable situation." It also fails to stipulate specific conditions.

FAIL

these are the reasons why the Japanese spouse "returns" home.

:facepalm:

[Greji]

ATTN: Japanese Women

If you want to abduct your children from your shiftless gaijin ex-husband, now is the time to do it. Don't wait till it's too late!

I wish someone had sent this to my wife years ago......

[matsuki]

The envisioned legislation would indicate that children will not have to be returned when the parent has fled from an abusive spouse or could face criminal prosecution in his or her country of habitual residence.

IPU already pointed it out but this is definitely the next area where there battles will be fought. With all the BS accusations of abuse we already hear about, this shit may even blow up bigger and make FG assumed wife/child beaters.....when, in fact, the only reason that BS excuse works in Japan is because there are soooo many instances of domestic violence here between Japanese, the J-robot superiority logic kicks in and FG can't possibly be less violent towards women/children.

[Ganma]

There is a danger there of putting the onus only on the foreign parent to give ground. It takes two to tango and you could equally argue that any Japanese national having children with a foreign partner should understand what their expectations would be in the event of a split. Why only see the foreign parent as the one trying to "fight this way of thinking"?

You might even argue that the onus is more on the Japanese spouse who has moved overseas to live. All of the Japanese parents accused of abductions have done that by definition. You also described in one of your earlier posts how you disapprove of people who seem to want their own laws to trump Japanese laws. That's not really the case. Instead they want local laws to have the same status as Japanese laws such that Japanese nationals can no longer ignore them with impunity.

Exactly!
[color="Red"]You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Mulboyne again.[/color]

[james]

There is a danger there of putting the onus only on the foreign parent to give ground. It takes two to tango and you could equally argue that any Japanese national having children with a foreign partner should understand what their expectations would be in the event of a split. Why only see the foreign parent as the one trying to "fight this way of thinking"?

You might even argue that the onus is more on the Japanese spouse who has moved overseas to live. All of the Japanese parents accused of abductions have done that by definition. You also described in one of your earlier posts how you disapprove of people who seem to want their own laws to trump Japanese laws. That's not really the case. Instead they want local laws to have the same status as Japanese laws such that Japanese nationals can no longer ignore them with impunity.

exactly, and well said.

[Samurai_Jerk]

The envisioned legislation would indicate that children will not have to be returned when the parent has fled from an abusive spouse or could face criminal prosecution in his or her country of habitual residence.


The Justice Ministry's Legislative Council will meet twice monthly and examine overseas cases to determine which instances should be considered as exceptions to the return of a child.


According to the pact, children will not be returned only when there is "a grave risk that his or her return would expose the child to physical or psychological harm or otherwise place the child in an intolerable situation." It also fails to stipulate specific conditions.

FAIL

these are the reasons why the Japanese spouse "returns" home.

:facepalm:

Wow. Do the Japanese actually think that's going to make other governments happy?

[IparryU]

Wow. Do the Japanese actually think that's going to make other governments happy?

Yes, because they are protecting their fellow Japanese who are "returning" home for protection from abuse and tainting of their tainted children of Nipponjin that cum from the taints of FGs

[matsuki]

Wow. Do the Japanese actually think that's going to make other governments happy?

Can't see how he other signors of the Hague would accept these "conditions" that seem to create gray area loopholes for everything in it.

[Mulboyne]

Can't see how he other signors of the Hague would accept these "conditions" that seem to create gray area loopholes for everything in it.

Japan is just doing what Switzerland did. Not all signatories to Hague agree on their responsibilities under the treaty and the US accused Swiss courts of trying the custody issue rather than deciding which jurisdiction should be doing that.

International treaties and conventions are a messy business. Japan is taking its first steps and I don't doubt there will be friction in the future. One development I foresee is that Japanese spouses will be tempted to take their children back to Japan without going through any legal proceedings overseas. It will be hard for Japanese courts to ignore broken custody agreements, and any resulting arrest warrants, but easy to find for the Japanese spouse if none exist.

[Mock Cockpit]

Japan is just doing what Switzerland did. Not all signatories to Hague agree on their responsibilities under the treaty and the US accused Swiss courts of trying the custody issue rather than deciding which jurisdiction should be doing that.

International treaties and conventions are a messy business. Japan is taking its first steps and I don't doubt there will be friction in the future. One development I foresee is that Japanese spouses will be tempted to take their children back to Japan without going through any legal proceedings overseas. It will be hard for Japanese courts to ignore broken custody agreements, and any resulting arrest warrants, but easy to find for the Japanese spouse if none exist.

As I understand the HC covers this by using the principle of "habitual abode".
Edit- Article 4 of the HC

Article 4

The Convention shall apply to any child who was habitually resident in a Contracting State immediately before any breach of custody or access rights. The Convention shall cease to apply when the child attaint the age of 16 years.

[Mulboyne]

That's what the Treaty says but that's not the point if Japan is going to take testimony about domestic violence and mental anguish into account.

There are two classes of case. One in which a parent simply takes off with the children, and one in which the parent does so in breech of court-agreed custody agreements. In the second case, the parent automatically becomes a felon. Under Hague, those cases are as near to a slam dunk as you are going to get. It would be hard for a Japanese court to set aside those circumstances because it effectively calls into question the legal proceedings of the other court, where any such allegations ought to have been aired.

It would be substantially easier for a Japanese court to give weight to any accusations of abuse if an overseas court had not already issued a ruling. That's why I suspect Japanese parents who want sole custody of their children will make sure they take off without submitting themselves to any legal process overseas.

Of course, Hague does cover those cases too but if Japanese courts are going to favour Japanese nationals, they will have a freer hand to do so with no overseas court proceedings to consider.

[Mock Cockpit]

Presumably the Japanese will have to sign the HC as it stands now and won't get to choose which parts they "want", posturing for domestic consumption aside.