Tohoku Earthquake, Tsunami and Nuclear Disaster!!!

[Taro Toporific]

[Yokohammer]

[Coligny]

Yesterday I drove from Beverley Hills of Japan (Denenchofu) to the wilds of Chiba on a State Visit with Catoneinutica. My old-school X-ray film badge got fogged (dangerous medical dose level over 20 mrem) somewhere in my drive through the middle of downtown Tokyo on Hwy 14 (Tama River --> Odiaba --> outskirts of Chiba City).
Guess what? We're ALL fucked.

Nissan... useless against nukular radiashiun...

(I sort of, dont see this becoming their new motto anytime soon)

(So can we assume that radiation source was at more than 1m high -window reach- or powerfull enought to go throught the floorboard or doorside iron. Did you use air recycling ? do you know if you have a pollen filter ? can I take appart your car to see how it's made inside ? mine is boring, you can take it to bits and pull it back overnight, and half of the process don't even require any tools... snap-fit for th3 win...)

[Coligny]

One not so stoopid question...
In case people find over the safety limit measure on a supermarket food... Because in most country, you call the food safety agency (if you are in a good mood) then they treat the problem the same way as expired food or needle in sandwich problem. Or you call the radioprotection agency... who usually is pretty good at hunting moskitoes with a bazooka (out of boredom I think) who close the shop and send a hazzmat team to cast the whole building in bakelite and try to dispose properly of the remains for the next 30 years...

If I remember well, hardcore pornography like radioactive material are forbidden to possess for commoners... If the cops gets a call for every mushroom glowing in the dark it might set -something- in motion...

[matsuki]

Yesterday I drove from Beverley Hills of Japan (Denenchofu) to the wilds of Chiba on a State Visit with Catoneinutica. My old-school X-ray film badge got fogged (dangerous medical dose level over 20 mrem) somewhere in my drive through the middle of downtown Tokyo on Hwy 14 (Tama River --> Odiaba --> outskirts of Chiba City).
Guess what? We're ALL fucked.

Dayam...when's Google coming back with the street view cars? They can mount Geiger counters on them and add a radiation measurement reading option.

[Taro Toporific]

Nissan... useless against nukular radiashiun...

(So can we assume that radiation source was at more than 1m high -window reach- or powerfull enought to go throught the floorboard or doorside iron. Did you use air recycling ? do you know if you have a pollen filter ? can I take appart your car to see how it's made inside ? mine is boring, you can take it to bits and pull it back overnight, and half of the process don't even require any tools... snap-fit for th3 win...)

you use air recycling ---Yes, I used air recycling. My "film" badge was just sitting my my backpack on the passenger's seat.

No "pollen filter" --- D'oh! Not ordering the HEPA pollen filter was the worst car option omission I have ever made.

you can take it {pollen filter} to bits ---I replaced my engine's air filter and took it to the Radiology Dept. for full testing. I am betting on the engine's air filter to glow in the dark.

[Coligny]

:rolleyes:
If I money to burn, I might buy a real geiger counter. But hey, I already know we're fucked.

That's a big part of my reasonning...

Afterall... what for...

[Yokohammer]

But hey, I already know we're fucked.

But how fucked is fucked?

If it isn't enough to make you fold up your cardboard boxes and blue tarps and move them to another land mass in another hemisphere somewhere, you probably don't feel all that threatened.

For myself, and I'm pretty heavily invested here in every possible way, I know that if there was a real and imminent danger I'd find a way out. That possibility is always at the back of my mind, but after doing whatever research I can and keeping tabs on radiation levels around where I live, I just don't feel that the situation is fucked enough to go on red alert.

What would it take to make you call it a day?

[2triky]

Citizen group tracks down Japan's radiation

Amid contradictory government statistics, a volunteer group has recorded 500,000 radiation points across the country.

Dahr Jamail 10 Aug 2011 17:37

The aftermath of the Fukushima Daiichi nuclear crisis has been marked by an outcry in Japan over radiation leaks, contaminated food and a government unable to put the public's fears to rest.

Perhaps the most worrying aspect of the meltdown that resulted from March's earthquake–triggered disaster, activists and citizens have said, is the uncertainty that has ensued.

In the months since the catastrophe, the Japanese government, its nuclear watchdogs and Tokyo Electric Power Company (TEPCO), have provided differing, confusing, and at times contradictory, information on critical health issues.

Fed up with indefinite data, a group of 50 volunteers decided to take matters, and Geiger counters, into their own hands.

In April, an independent network of like-minded individuals in the Japan and United States banded together to form Safecast and began an ongoing crusade to record and publish accurate radiation levels around Japan.

The group handed out mobile radiation detectors and uploaded the readings to the internet to map out exposure levels.

Sean Bonner, director of Safecast, told Al Jazeera that volunteers have so far logged more than 500,000 radiation data points across Japan.

...more...

[matsuki]

Ehhh, in the center of that shit and that's all he's wearing? Reminds me of China...

[2triky]

Ehhh, in the center of that shit and that's all he's wearing? Reminds me of China...

Dress code allows for casual Fridays.

[matsuki]

Dress code allows for casual Fridays.

...or cool biz?:confused:

[Coligny]

...or cool biz?:confused:

I have to scan you some pictures I got got me a car body repair manual from the 70'. For all the dangerous operations they provide a list of the safety equipment required to wear. And there is always a picture beside... with a brother sporting a cool afro... and wearing neither glove nor googles or breathing mask doing his welding or FRP work in a wifebeater... It's not even understandable why they are doing this...

Seems that their philosophy is either be carefull or make the darky do the job... and I double checked... it's a AAA sponsored book... not KKK...

[Yokohammer]

Yesterday I drove from Beverley Hills of Japan (Denenchofu) to the wilds of Chiba on a State Visit with Catoneinutica. My old-school X-ray film badge got fogged (dangerous medical dose level over 20 mrem) somewhere in my drive through the middle of downtown Tokyo on Hwy 14 (Tama River --> Odiaba --> outskirts of Chiba City).
Guess what? We're ALL fucked.

Taro,

Sorry to keep harping on this, but it is a very disturbing figure that keeps coming back to haunt me. Here we have a guy with some background in radiology using a recognized measuring device and coming up with a figure of "over 20 mrem" over the course of a short drive through Tokyo.

That's really fucking high, and for the sake of our collective peace of mind (yours included) I feel almost duty-bound to find an error somewhere.

Check my math:

20 mrems = 0.2 mSv
That's 0.2 mSv x 1000 = 200 &#181]200 µSv/h[/B] !!!
If the drive was two hours we're still at 100 µSv/h.

In Tokyo that's outrageous.
It means that either there's a 200 µSv (or thereabouts) hot spot that you drove through, or there's a constant radiation level of 100 ~ 200 µSv/h, ... or there's an error somewhere.

Under the circumstances I think it would be very prudent to look for an error. So what, other than dangerously high radiation levels in Tokyo, could have caused such a high reading? It's a film badge, right? It was on the back seat of the car, right? From what I can gather those things should not be exposed to strong direct sunlight to avoid fogging due to thermal sensitization or light leaks. Any possibility that might have something to do with it?

Also, I can't seem to find any info about film badges that don't require processing. Can you give me a manufacturer/model number or something I can look up?

[Taro Toporific]

So what, other than dangerously high radiation levels in Tokyo, could have caused such a high reading? ...
Also, I can't seem to find any info about film badges that don't require processing. Can you give me a manufacturer/model number or something I can look up?

I just got a call back on the my engine air filter and it's like everything else in Tokyo with a slightly elevated 17-to-20 CPM radioactive background reading. My radiologist neighbor came over this morning before work with a Geiger counter, checked my car and it also has a normal-for-Tokyo radioactive background reading.

The best guess the radiologist and I can think of is that something on the highway---like a very odd looking truck loaded with clean scrap stainless steel that I noticed on my drive---set the film badge off.

As I said before, almost all modern "film" badges don't need processing nowadays. Mine is this one (sorry my webcam takes crappy photos).

[Yokohammer]

I just got a call back on the my engine air filter and it's like everything else in Tokyo with a slightly elevated 17-to-20 CPM radioactive background reading. My radiologist neighbor came over this morning before work with a Geiger counter, checked my car and it also has a normal-for-Tokyo radioactive background reading.

The best guess the radiologist and I can think of is that something on the highway---like a very odd looking truck loaded with clean scrap stainless steel that I noticed on my drive---set the film badge off.

Thank you!

All together now ... [SIZE="4"]"PHEW!"[/SIZE]
Had me worried there for a while.

Here's a cleaner pic of your badge from the manufacturer's website (I could read your pic OK, it's just that I'm a fussy bastard):



Cool little widget.
I also note that it says "Avoid prolonged exposure to heat and UV/sunlight", so that might have had something to do with it too.

Edit: Also, the thing reads in mSv but you quoted in mrem (???). If you got a reading of over 20 mSv rather than 20 mrem (which is only 0.2 mSv), that would be seriously get-the-fuck-out-of-there scary.

[Coligny]

The best guess the radiologist and I can think of is that something on the highway---like a very odd looking truck loaded with clean scrap stainless steel that I noticed on my drive---set the film badge off.

ETC gates, red light underpavement loop... secret TSA backscatting vans... AND the little extra solar flare activity we got these last days... The best test would be to go back to Catoneinutica Boozodrome, use several badges. 1 for the whole trip and few others kept in lead storage and exposed one at a time during different segment of the trip.

But honestly... I really put me muney (ehmmm... me b... Julie muney) on the ETC gates. Since the flow of passenger is not supposed to stop is mostly protected by the roof of the car (if far enough from the windshield, while your badge if it was on the front passanger seat was nearly in line of sight) and it's a 2 way wireless data system it would make perfect sense to crank a bit the power, maybe grey-ing XRay films in the process while still being harmless.

[Yokohammer]

ETC gates, red light underpavement loop...

Good point, and worth checking out.
I'll put my counter on the dashboard or front seat next time I go through the ETC and see if I can detect a peak. It chirps on CPM, so although I won't be able to get an accurate instantaneous reading, it's easy to hear even a brief increase in counts. Of course it could be something that just affects film (i.e. not gamma radiation), so I might not be able to detect any difference at all. Worth a try though.

[damn name]

ETC uses modulated reflectance so it operates at very low power.

[Taro Toporific]

ETC gates, red light underpavement loop... secret TSA backscatting vans... AND the little extra solar flare activity we got these last days...
But honestly... I really put me muney (ehmmm... me b... Julie muney) on the ETC gates.

I put my money on the unmarked yakuza truck full of too clean stainless steel that was next to my car in a traffic jam. The yaks have made money for years dealing with toxic waste disposal. That truckload super high quality steel for disposal[color="Silver"](recycling)[/color] would be a double money maker---1st they are paid handsomely for no-questions-asked, low-level radioactive waste disposal and, 2nd they sell the high quality steel to a mini-mill who dumps small amounts of the contaminated steel in each of their batches for a few months (and blames any elevated readings on the general higher background readings in Kanto).

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Dunno about the radiation, but this year I've got the best tan I've had in 20-odd years of summers in Tokyo....I almost look ganguro.

I guess any kids I have from here on in are gonna look like Picasso paintings, but the old man won't be doing too bad if he can keep his mid-life crisis under control and resist the urge to wear flamboyant shirts open to the waist and lots of gold chains dangling around his neck.

[Coligny]

ETC uses modulated reflectance so it operates at very low power.

ETC use the DSRC technology for communication:
http://www.hitachi.co.jp/en/products/its/product/services/2104630_45061.html

See ISO 14906 and 1MA152 for protocols and layers

But more importantly:
It is in the 5.8 GHz 5.9GHz range for the Layer 1 (see OSI):
http://www.orse.or.jp/english/organization/etc_feature.html

If you check this graph:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/8a/Electromagnetic-Spectrum.png

you see that Gamma/X Rays are in the upper part around 10^15 to 10^19 Hz. It the part Taro's badge is designed to react to in a timely manner.

Now go back to the DSRC, it's at 5.9Ghz in our graph it's between 10^9 and 10^10 Hz, it's a microwave, around the radar range if you prefer.

Now back to Taro's badge, there is a mention to avoid prolongated exposure tu UV, Heat or direct sunlight... That's the tell tale of the bottom line of the sensitivity for the badge, means, it's in no way designed to measure this accurately, but if you let it too long it will spoil the badge. That put this bottom line between 10^16 and 10^12 Hz, much higher than our previous microwave.

To put it simply, a DSRC microwave would have needed even more time than a long (think storage) exposure to heat or sunlight to react with the badge if it was even possible.

Or you pass an ETC gate in around than 30 seconds (my case, since i'm anal retentively doing 20kph at the gate, but I remember some of you starting to post your best shortest times not so long ago).

What it means... is that while ETC gates are not a potential culprit for exposing this badge. It have nothing to do with the power transmitted. It's just because it's the wrong frequency.

(and before you ask, yes some medical Xray film is sensitive to micro waves, but for totally different reasons: http://www.apug.org/forums/archive/index.php/t-59669.html)

[matsuki]

I put my money on the unmarked yakuza truck full of too clean stainless steel that was next to my car in a traffic jam. The yaks have made money for years dealing with toxic waste disposal. That truckload super high quality steel for disposal[color="Silver"](recycling)[/color] would be a double money maker---1st they are paid handsomely for no-questions-asked, low-level radioactive waste disposal and, 2nd they sell the high quality steel to a mini-mill who dumps small amounts of the contaminated steel in each of their batches for a few months (and blames any elevated readings on the general higher background readings in Kanto).

That tingling feeling? No, it's fine! Must be your imagination!

Was the driver wearing anything unusual?

[Ganma]

Moved from one ministry to another. Very reassuring, don't you think?
[YT]r-nV7D2tBIw&feature=player_embedded[/YT]

[SIZE="4"]Japan to set up new nuclear safety agency[/SIZE]
TOKYO – Japan's government has decided to set up a new nuclear regulatory agency under the Environment Ministry instead of the trade ministry to increase its independence after the country's atomic disaster, officials said Thursday.

[Yokohammer]

Moved from one ministry to another. Very reassuring, don't you think?

Wowee, the J-gov't is really serious about curtailing collision and corruption aren't they ... (loud derisive [SIZE="3"]SNORT![/SIZE]).

[Coligny]

Barely saturday evening and already setting us up for a rocky week:

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/08/decrease-in-white-blood-cells-headache.html

TL/DR Seems there is a growing number of people going to Sendai hospital and showing sign of radiation sickness...

[Yokohammer]

Barely saturday evening and already setting us up for a rocky week:

http://ex-skf.blogspot.com/2011/08/decrease-in-white-blood-cells-headache.html

TL/DR Seems there is a growing number of people going to Sendai hospital and showing sign of radiation sickness...

Tweets from an anonymous maybe-nurse?
Nope ... don't think I'm going to worry much about that.

If there were multiple cases of white-cell counts plummeting and hair falling out in clumps due to radiation poisoning from Fukushima randomly showing up at major hospitals I'm pretty sure there'd be some mainstream noise by now. Maybe there will be ... maybe I'll be surprised ... but I'm also pretty sure that if people have been exposed enough to cause health problems it'll take a lot longer and show up in more subtle ways. Not so much drama.

[Coligny]

-ex-skf have been quite a reliable source up until now.
-I was thinking the exact opposite of you... It's been already a little long after the accident to see these kind of radiation poisonning (who are short term effect -see the polonium tea guy for that matter).
-For the mainstream noise, usually it's more about letting the first cases come by, either wondering what happens or STFU hoping there won't be more, then when it's too many to hide, backtracking (like what they are doing aboot the level of threat created by the radiation these days).
-lastly, it's not matching too well for a fake rumor usual signature:

• 1 it's not exactly surprising and it could be blamed to some grandpa going back too close to the plant for feeding their dogs/cats/goldfish.
• 2 it's not really sensationnalistic, fake rumors try usually to do maximum impact as fast as possible since it usually don't take long before being be debunked.
• 3 with all the hotspots uncovered it could perfectly make sense.

Let's just wait and see, it's not like they are efficient at keeping secret for long anyway...

[Yokohammer]

The problem with these supposed nurse tweets, and associating them with radiation from Fukushima, is that they're just not consistent with reality.

For example, the symptoms being described are those of acute radiation poisoning, not long-term effects. The fact that they are appearing within 5 months corroborates this.

Problem: acute radiation sickness symptoms normally appear after short-term doses of around 400 mSv or more. You'd have to be at the nuke plant to get that. So the idea that multiple cases are arriving at Sendai hospitals and doctors are wondering why the patients' white blood cell counts are so low stretches my credulity to the limit. I can understand if such cases are workers coming straight from the plant, but then there'd be no question about what's going on.

Also, the suggestion that it might be coming from the hospital food is ... trying to think of a nice word but can't ... idiotic. 400 mSv from a few hospital meals? Nope.*

No, this rumor stretches logic in too many ways, and frankly stinks of BS.

[SIZE="1"]* Unless of course some nutcase in the hospital kitchen is sprinkling polonium over the food ... TIJ, but that wouldn't be due to Fukushima.[/SIZE]

[Coligny]

For example, the symptoms being described are those of acute radiation poisoning, not long-term effects. The fact that they are appearing within 5 months corroborates this.

Problem: acute radiation sickness symptoms normally appear after short-term doses of around 400 mSv or more. You'd have to be at the nuke plant to get that. So the idea that multiple cases are arriving at Sendai hospitals and doctors are wondering why the patients' white blood cell counts are so low stretches my credulity to the limit. I can understand if such cases are workers coming straight from the plant, but then there'd be no question about what's going on.

Totally agreeded on that...

But would not be surprised 1 second if there was a totally rationnal explanashiun linked to an insanely stupid behaviour... (like for example, when scrapping the contamined soil in some schools did anybody thought aboot putting a breathing mask...)