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  • fuckedgaijin ‹ General ‹ Gaijin Ghetto

Japan "is a libertarian's dream world"

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28 posts • Page 1 of 1

Japan "is a libertarian's dream world"

Postby Mulboyne » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:05 am

Noahpinion: Do property rights increase freedom? (Japan edition)
...Since the dawn of time, libertarians have equated property rights with freedom. Intuitively, this makes a lot of sense: if the government can come and confiscate your stuff, or tell you what to do with it, you don't feel very free at all. But libertarians tend to take this basic concept to its maximal extent; the more things are brought within the cash nexus, the more free we become...But is that right? What would it really feel like to live in a society where almost every single thing is privately owned and priced? Walking around urban Japan, I feel like I am seeing a society that is several steps closer to that ideal than the United States. You may have heard that Japan is a government-directed society, and in many ways it is. But in terms of the constituents of daily life being privately owned and marginally priced, it is a libertarian's dream world...

...For example, there are relatively few free city parks. Many green spaces are private and gated off (admission is usually around $5). On the streets, there are very few trashcans; people respond to this in the way libertarians would want, by exercising personal responsibility and carrying their trash home with them in little baggies. There are also very few public benches. In cafes, each customer must order something promptly or be kicked out; outside your house or office, there is basically nowhere to sit down that will not cost you a little bit of money. Public buildings generally have no drinking fountains; you must buy or bring your own water. Free wireless? Good luck finding that! Does all this private property make me feel free? Absolutely not!...more...


The blogger's description of Japan seems a bit America-centric. Free wi-fi still isn't on the menu for most large cities in the world. Japan lost quite a few public rubbish bins for the same reason that they disappeared in Britain - terrorist threats - but it's rare you have to take rubbish home unless you've gone hiking. Stations and convenience stores have plenty of bins which more than compensates. There aren't many cafes and restaurants anywhere in the world which let you sit at a table without ordering anything, unless you explain you are waiting, so Japan doesn't seem much of an outlier. I always find it more surprising how places will let you squat at a table at length even if you've only ordered a coffee costing 160 yen.
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Postby Coligny » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:26 am

Is it one of those travlog on japan from a guy who only heard aboot the place from 'Fast and Furious Tokyo Drift' ? I have yet to see a park with paying access unless it's for an exhibition... And as far as park goes... might be an exception... but theres nearly nore than combinis...
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Postby Coligny » Thu Aug 18, 2011 8:40 am

Ok... it's much much much worse than that...

It's the bullshit level you get from clueless fatcats students in their first year of private university with pay as you go diploma... (the kind that never saw a cloud, claim to invent thunderstorms and privatise rain to prevent you from using free water from the sky instead of paying for tap water)

Borrow one of them airlines vomit bags before reading that link, you'ze gunna need it...
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Postby Taro Toporific » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:00 am

Coligny wrote: ...Borrow one of them airlines vomit bags before reading that link, you'ze gunna need it...


I couldn't make it to end of laughable post about Japan is libertarian's dream world (when its a groupist Disneyland-of-the-Mind set in gray concrete that's made of radioactive fly-ash).

--"pick up their own garbage"
Nope. Japan throw anywhere with the knowledge that enslaved housewives and grannies will scoop it up in minutes.

--"green spaces are private and gated off"
I wish. Japanese spaces are private and gated off and COVERED IN CONCRETE.

--"few public benches"
Well duh, everyone is supposed to be hurrying to work.
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Postby Russell » Thu Aug 18, 2011 9:29 am

Free public toilets: a communist's dream world. :rolleyes:
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Postby dimwit » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:19 am

Mulboyne wrote: Japan lost quite a few public rubbish bins for the same reason that they disappeared in Britain - terrorist threats - but it's rare you have to take rubbish home unless you've gone hiking. Stations and convenience stores have plenty of bins which more than compensates.


No I don't agree. Even before 9/11 there were no garbage cans anywhere. And judging by the hiking trails and beaches I have seen in Shikoku, I would say that people rarely if ever take garbage back home with them.

But I do generally agree with the tone of the article. Japan is very much a pay as you play society with public service generally done on the cheap, which, Taro, I think is the main reason many parks are paved -it cuts down on the maintanence.
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Postby Mike Oxlong » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:27 am

dimwit wrote:No I don't agree. Even before 9/11 there were no garbage cans anywhere. And judging by the hiking trails and beaches I have seen in Shikoku, I would say that people rarely if ever take garbage back home with them.

Wasn't that (removal of public trash bins) in response to the domestic terrorism that was Aum Shinrikyo? I've also heard that when garbage sorting and pickup became much stricter and had to be put in municipal approved garbage bags we pay extra for, then people started dumping all their garbage in public and convenience store bins. The natural reaction was to remove those to stop people flooding them with their domestic shit.
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Postby Samurai_Jerk » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:35 am

Coligny wrote:I have yet to see a park with paying access unless it's for an exhibition... And as far as park goes... might be an exception... but theres nearly nore than combinis...


There are some gardens in Tokyo like Shinjuku Gyoen that charge people to enter. I think that's what he's talking about. However, regular parks don't charge people to get in.

Anyway, the bit the Mulboyne posted is enough for me not to click on the link and read more. I don't know that free wi-fi in public spaces has taken off yet in the US but cafes where you pay to sit down are certainly more likely to offer it. Seoul is kick-ass for wi-fi. I especially like the fact that the subway system is wired so you can use your iPhone or whatever without losing the connection between stations. There are also a ton of hot spots throughout the city. It's great when you're traveling and want to avoid crazy packet charges.
Faith is believing what you know ain't so. -- Mark Twain
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Postby dimwit » Thu Aug 18, 2011 10:36 am

Mike Oxlong wrote:Wasn't that (removal of public trash bins) in response to the domestic terrorism that was Aum Shinrikyo? I've also heard that when garbage sorting and pickup became much stricter and had to be put in municipal approved garbage bags we pay extra for, then people started dumping all their garbage in public and convenience store bins. The natural reaction was to remove those to stop people flooding them with their domestic shit.


Ok, even before Aum (now I am really beginning to show my age) there weren't garbage cans anywhere. I remember the days when publicly dumping garbage in the rivers was not frowned upon and Babas in a very libertarian sort of way would just dump garbage bags in the rivers whenever they pleased.
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Postby maraboutslim » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:34 pm

I lived in Tokyo at the time of the Aum subway attack and I remember there were trash cans on all train platforms and throughout the stations and in many public locations and then they were removed after the attack, never to return.
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Postby Coligny » Thu Aug 18, 2011 12:45 pm

dimwit wrote: Quote:
Originally Posted by Mulboyne
Japan lost quite a few public rubbish bins for the same reason that they disappeared in Britain - terrorist threats - but it's rare you have to take rubbish home unless you've gone hiking. Stations and convenience stores have plenty of bins which more than compensates.

No I don't agree. Even before 9/11 there were no garbage cans anywhere. And judging by the hiking trails and beaches I have seen in Shikoku, I would say that people rarely if ever take garbage back home with them.


But I do generally agree with the tone of the article. Japan is very much a pay as you play society with public service generally done on the cheap, which, Taro, I think is the main reason many parks are paved -it cuts down on the maintanence.



911

911

911

911

911

911... You'ze pulling a Rumsfeld...

I'm pretty sure them Brits got more problems while reacting less from the IRA rather than from 4lquaeda... And I remember as a kitten that Paris was blowing up quite often too without any camel jockey involved... Even in 93 (if my memory is good) I was living on the train line -RER-B- for which more than a few station where blownup during the summer...

Terrorism is old as... say... old...

Overreacting and giving the terrorists 1000000 times what they wanted is quite new... 911 911 911...
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Postby matsuki » Thu Aug 18, 2011 1:03 pm

Dude sounds like he spent 3 days in Shinjuku, was kicked out of a coffee shop for squatting, and actually believed half the shit he heard from the Japanese that could sorta communicate with.....and he suddenly became the newest "expert" on Japan. The libertarian rant doesn't make any sense at all and just demonstrates his ignorance of the country/culture by trying to make that claim.
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Postby Ganma » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:30 pm

maraboutslim wrote:I lived in Tokyo at the time of the Aum subway attack and I remember there were trash cans on all train platforms and throughout the stations and in many public locations and then they were removed after the attack, never to return.

Even more disappeared after a homeless guy was injured by a bomb put in a trash can in a Shinjuku park about 9 years back. Trash cans haven't returned to the Keio line since then (except for bottle bins). Other train lines have since reinstalled bins.

The article still exists amazingly:

Sunday, Jan. 20, 2002

Man injured by bomb in park trash can
An explosion in a trash can Saturday morning at a park in Tokyo's Shinjuku Ward seriously injured a homeless man, police said.


Yoshimi Sasaki, 53, an unemployed homeless man, was injured and remains unconscious, the police said, adding that the explosion occurred around 8:40 a.m. at Shinjuku Chuo Koen -- Shinjuku Central Park -- in the Nishi-Shinjuku district.
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Postby Dreamy_Peach » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:41 pm

In the comment section he says that he lived in Japan, albeit Osaka, for 2.5 years. Even though it seems like some kind of pol sci grad student blog, I don't see too many problems with his basic analysis.

Reminds me of the section in Robert Whiting's Tokyo Underworld where a US army officer tried to reduce incidents of sexually transmitted diseases by establishing a common recreation facility for US servicemen. Through establishing a fishing centre it would give servicemen something else to do, other than go and boff bimbos.

However, even though the land was not used it was tied up in little parcels and negotiating with each landowner proved extremely onerous and difficult. No one wanted to work together for the common good; local government wasn't interested either, even though it would be in their interest to see such a facility/reduction in STI.

In the end, after endless onerous negotiation and against all odds he managed to achieve it; servicemen found something else they could do and STI rates decreased.

Not sure how accurate the story is, but the individual liberty enjoyed in Japan/Tokyo often seems to be at the detriment to a social and liveable city.
I suppose the extreme principle of private property combined with the extreme individualism you see (to the degree where even acknowledging the existence of other people and showing a modicum of courtesy seems to be reduced in Tokyo) is this form of libertarianism.

I can't say that it's a good thing.
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Postby Samurai_Jerk » Thu Aug 18, 2011 3:55 pm

[quote="Dreamy_Peach"]In the comment section he says that he lived in Japan, albeit Osaka, for 2.5 years. Even though it seems like some kind of pol sci grad student blog, I don't see too many problems with his basic analysis.

Reminds me of the section in Robert Whiting's Tokyo Underworld where a US army officer tried to reduce incidents of sexually transmitted diseases by establishing a common recreation facility for US servicemen. Through establishing a fishing centre it would give servicemen something else to do, other than go and boff bimbos.

However, even though the land was not used it was tied up in little parcels and negotiating with each landowner proved extremely onerous and difficult. No one wanted to work together for the common good]

Yeah, I can't think of any reason for locals wouldn't want a rec center for US servicemen in their backyard. :roll:
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Postby BigInJapan » Thu Aug 18, 2011 4:11 pm

Mike Oxlong wrote:...then people started dumping all their garbage in public and convenience store bins.
I'm a bit of a garbage/dumping Nazi and I bloody detest the little efftards that do that. Can't count the number of times I've seen some salesmen, or yanki punks/hos shuffle over from their k-car and toss a bag or two in the bin.

dimwit wrote:I remember the days when publicly dumping garbage in the rivers was not frowned upon and Babas in a very libertarian sort of way would just dump garbage bags in the rivers whenever they pleased.
Still happens. A couple of the reservoirs in my neighbourhood here in Fukuoka have crud like fluorescent light bulbs, tires, and other assorted detritus dumped in them. I'm always fishing crap out of the stream next to my property, and if I ever catch somebody dumping a fridge or something, he/she is gonna find a 50 gallon drum of whoop-ass waiting for them.
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Postby Screwed-down Hairdo » Thu Aug 18, 2011 5:51 pm

BigInJapan wrote:....he/she is gonna find a 50 gallon drum of whoop-ass waiting for them.


Isn't that what they've been finding in that park in Osaka all week?
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Postby sirwanksalot » Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:45 pm

dimwit wrote:No I don't agree. Even before 9/11 there were no garbage cans anywhere.



Compared to Hawaii, where I just came here from, there are garbage cans everywhere. Toilets too. Japan is a great place to take a dump if you need to.
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Postby Coligny » Thu Aug 18, 2011 6:48 pm

BigInJapan wrote:I'm a bit of a garbage/dumping Nazi and I bloody detest the little efftards that do that. Can't count the number of times I've seen some salesmen, or yanki punks/hos shuffle over from their k-car and toss a bag or two in the bin.


Wait !? I can't even empty the inboard trash can of me car at the combini now ?
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Postby Coligny » Fri Aug 19, 2011 10:06 am

sirwanksalot wrote:Compared to Hawaii, where I just came here from, there are garbage cans everywhere. Toilets too. Japan is a great place to take a dump if you need to.


Agreed... never run out of TP, those lovely washlets, not cats banging at the door to let them in... And usually... cleaner than my kitchen...

Even If by stating this I tell WAYYYY too much aboot the state of my kitchen... rather than the state of japanese public loos...
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Postby ChargerCarl » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:22 am

chokonen888 wrote:The libertarian rant doesn't make any sense at all and just demonstrates his ignorance of the country/culture by trying to make that claim.


Made sense to me.

Free markets can never provide us with pareto-efficient outcomes. You can disagree with his caricatures of japan, but his fundamental argument is sound.
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Postby Christoff » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:56 am

Mihi cura futuri
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Postby Screwed-down Hairdo » Fri Aug 19, 2011 12:44 pm

Fuck liberterian, let's libertine.
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Postby Coligny » Fri Aug 19, 2011 1:53 pm

Screwed-down Hairdo wrote:Fuck liberterian, let's libertine.


So I let this here... (again)

[YT]hZviiBoe8wQ[/YT]


Uncensored there:OMG OMG b00bees...
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Postby Doctor Stop » Fri Aug 19, 2011 2:00 pm

Somebody has to get that guy together with Tyler Brûlé so he can find out the best places to suck libertarian Japanese cock.
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Postby matsuki » Fri Aug 19, 2011 8:14 pm

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Postby damn name » Fri Aug 19, 2011 11:08 pm

The consumption tax for businesses is deducted on your tax return. There is no double taxation.
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Postby ChargerCarl » Sat Aug 20, 2011 1:47 am

[quote="Doctor Stop"]Somebody has to get that guy together with Tyler Brû]

This guy is making an argument AGAINST libertarians/free market fundamentalism

Just look at the blogs he has listed on the side...paul krugman, brad delong, mark thoma, ezra klein, Matt Yglesias...not exactly right wing sympathizers...
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