Understanding Japan Through The Karate Kid

[Mike Oxlong]

[Coligny]

By making a virtue out of hard work and frugality at the same time, the philosophy emphasized the showing of dedication to detail in work, rather than production.

Sidenote: the next time I hear in an interview the spunkdumpsters whores from AKB48 that they are 'working hard' to 'reach their dream' or other TV drama tear dropping bullshit I'm going to kill a puppy, dress it in an idol outfit and rape its carcasse...


every... single... time...

(not a dog person anyway...)

[legion]

I'm going to kill a puppy, dress it in an idol outfit and rape its carcasse...


every... single... time...

(not a dog person anyway...)

that is the AKB48 dream

[matsuki]

that is the AKB48 dream

I thought it was to marry an ugly, smelly, and fat salaryman with no social skills? That is their target demographic....

[Samurai_Jerk]

I thought it was to marry an ugly, smelly, and fat salaryman with no social skills?

I am so going to score!

[tone]

stumbled onto this

heres my long ass rant - what ive been stewing over at the gym and on my commutes to the office

i'm a month into working at a hella japanese company. all japanese except me, they all work like 10-11 hours a day or more and its that "look at me, im committing suicide for the company and being a totally selfless hero" ethos

I read up a little before coming here and people said to embrace your gaijin ness, and dont try too hard to becomes one of them, and of course im not, mainly because i dislike 10 hour days when there are no deadlines or reason to stretch 6-8 hours worth of tasks into an epic work day on a daily basis

but still, i get frustrated. tons of attention to detail, very little leadership or the custom of saving ourselves busy work so we (the company) can have sane lives and still get paid because we as experts know that the clients request is not going to pan out in the long run anyway. over here, there is no push back when clients ask retarded requests

then there are the meetings, where almost like a funeral, no one wants to walk away, so we stand around preciously, waiting for the first person to say "well, back to work" (usually me now)

then the insult to all this is I am making almost 1/3rd of what I made in the states. of course the yen makes that a little less, but its honestly chump change compared to what im used to.

its cool because i can improve at the language, and speaking a foreign language (mainly japanese in my life, but also spanish) does kind of make me feel sometimes like my brain is using new mechanisms and thinking more creatively

but damn... i wonder how long before i break down and quit - claiming my asthma is acting up as a result of the indoor smoking of my coworkers. yeah this still exists i guess.

I work in a creative industry so its kind of a small freedom afforded these guys who have to work stupid hours for the company and despite what i would do ladies wise if i was in their shoes, all seem to have no love lives despite living in one of the great cities for fine women.

and this is in general, people get paid shit for hella hours. all the guys on my baseball team, have some fucked up work lives. its sad. maybe in finance its different. and i get that this country is kind of socialist with its overemployment, but you would think that would mean people could get shit done in less time than everyone doing ridiculous workplace performance art.

it's a long story why im here, but in my case it was not that I was sucking ass career wise in my home country and need something they have here - thoug I'm always down for an adventure. but for this much work, I would figure I would be saving more for an awesome 3 month vacation somewhere cool.

[Yokohammer]

heres my long ass rant - what ive been stewing over at the gym and on my commutes to the office ...

Er ... welcome to Japan. I guess.

Joining the "salaryman culture" here is definitely not the path to nirvana (you obviously didn't read the right books). It's a morass of incompetence and spinning around in one spot with no real purpose other than to be a salaryman. At one time it sort of made sense: a way out of the post-war doldrums, lifetime employment, and a pretty much ensured life after retirement. Those basic benefits are all but gone, but the culture remains. The operation is still under way long after the patient has died. That's not to say it's all bad. There are innovative companies with a really lively work ethic that actually get things done. But the average behemoth corporation is barely able to support its own dead weight, and being a part of something like that is nothing but an exercise in despair.

I feel for ya, as I'm sure do the many other members of the choir you're preaching to.

Fortunately, that's not all Japan has to offer. "Salaryman land" is a dying black hole within an otherwise vibrant culture, although it's doing the best it can to suck all the remaining light out of the country. Get out, travel, meet and hang out with people outside the salaryman cesspool and you'll see an entirely different picture. It really is night and day, and you need to find some daylight before the night devours your soul.

Edit: BTW, going out and getting shitfaced with your coworkers is only temporary relief that eventually leads to an even darker place. Get out and build a separate life for yourself. Sorry for the overly avuncular tone ... it's just that your story reminded me of a similar and not very happy place I was in myself many years ago.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Fortunately, that's not all Japan has to offer. "Salaryman land" is a dying black hole within an otherwise vibrant culture

Sorry but ....

[Yokohammer]

Sorry but ....

That's OK, everyone is entitled to their opinion. But I think it does depend on where you're at (figuratively) and what you're seeing. I'm seeing some pretty "vibrant" stuff happening outside the loop, which is why I made that statement (although I'm beginning to wonder if I couldn't have chosen a better adjective). Let's just say "good stuff." It's there if you know where to look. It most certainly isn't anywhere near the big established lockstep-march corporations.

[tone]

oh its vibrant as hell, i particularly like the hot dogs here

j/k

but miyagi is nice, cant say much about that. vibrant is now kind of a fruity word though

ups and downs of culture shock. galapagos is such a nice way to express it.

still at work... maybe i'll get coffee and if i say otsukaresama to 3 people i will have hit my minimum 44 times, which allows me to leave (early by standards here.)

its not exactly salaryman stuff, kind of in the design sector but still its a lot like was described. and to make things worse, I have had a taste of freelancing, where half of the jobs 1/3rd of the yr were from home, so only 1/3rd of my year was in an office anyway, so yeah, its a drag

daddy is going to have some Asahi Off Strong 8% tonight baby

[legion]

It's a morass of incompetence and spinning around in one spot with no real purpose other than to be a salaryman.

It's great isn't it

Whatever happened to the ubiquitous salaryman mac?

[matsuki]

It's just that your story reminded me of a similar and not very happy place I was in myself many years ago.

We've all been there

I've avoided the coworker BS and long hours lately but the shit pay remains. Lucky for me, I have a few small, yet reliable, additional forms of income in the form of side businesses to take care of that. Your advice is spot on though hammer, get the fuck out and go have some fun!

[IparryU]

[quote="chokonen888"]We've all been there ]
(Back when I was an engineer)
ya... i got my work done and left at 1800 every day... the boss got pissed at me and asked why I left early. I told him that I was a head of my deadline, fixed all the bugs in my design, and I was able to study Japanese for an hour and a half...

He said I could do more for the company and I told him I dont want to over stress myself as I get caught up on the Chuo Line twice a week cause someone commits suicide because of work related stress. He stared for 10 seconds, then i say "otsukaresan!" and walk out.... he got on me about saying the polite form cause he is my boss... said it, then shut the door...

I ended up quitting before the majority of my division was cut...

I wouldn't consider working for a J-company again, but other's viewpoint may be different.

[Samurai_Jerk]

I wouldn't consider working for a J-company again, but other's viewpoint may be different.

I guess it depends on how you define a Japanese company. A traditional J-co? No way. But there are some smaller companies and ventures that are run more reasonably.

By the way, I don't think Japanese people work such long hours compared with people in the US. For most of my friends back home 10 - 12 hour (or more) days are normal. Of course most of them live in NYC and have jobs that pay well.

[matsuki]

He said I could do more for the company and I told him I dont want to over stress myself as I get caught up on the Chuo Line twice a week cause someone commits suicide because of work related stress.

"...and the company could pay overtime if they want more from me." would also be an acceptable reply.

[matsuki]

I guess it depends on how you define a Japanese company. A traditional J-co? No way. But there are some smaller companies and ventures that are run more reasonably.

THIS

By the way, I don't think Japanese people work such long hours compared with people in the US. For most of my friends back home 10 - 12 hour (or more) days are normal. Of course most of them live in NYC and have jobs that pay well.

...and are productive?

[tone]

for me the simple solution is to count overtime after 40-45-50 hours, and that equals extra days off. all of a sudden managers and planners take that into consideration. the shit isnt free, its just been subsidized by the employees with their time.

i would even quit bitching about the lower pay

but the frenzied need to remain busy/busy looking is fucking pathological and thats whats freaked me out. the company i work for is otherwise full of nice, hip smart japanese peeps.

[Coligny]

Once again, check the productivity numbers, (ratio of shit made versus hours needed) the jclowns always comes after the Italians...

I mean, have you ever seen an Italian working ? except Michael Shumacher when he was at Ferrari...

Usually despite our 5 weeks paid vacashiun we fare pretty well in those ratings... let see how it goes after the euros sink (*) like a titanic bitch...


(*) in the naval sense of the term, not the financial one...

[tone]

in the bitch sense of the word

[Taka-Okami]

I'm pulling 12 hours days atm in Oz. But I work in construction engineering and have always work more than the required 38 hours required each week. Yet I'm only allowed to claim the 38 hours. No over time pay, no bonus, 4 weeks paid leave per year.

[matsuki]

I'm pulling 12 hours days atm in Oz. But I work in construction engineering and have always work more than the required 38 hours required each week. Yet I'm only allowed to claim the 38 hours. No over time pay, no bonus, 4 weeks paid leave per year.

4 weeks paid leave sounds pretty nice but no overtime pay is...well, I don't know AUS law but that sucks.

[tone]

what the indian said

[bolt_krank]

I've spent only 1 month working in Japan, and I didn't like it. What annoyed me most was people would blatantly do nothing until lunch time so they'd have stuff to "stay back" for. The lack of efficiency was more than I could bare. But I went back for a week with a bank that seemed to have a very different mentality. Stay back to finish stuff on time, otherwise - dont' bother because no one cares.

[Samurai_Jerk]

4 weeks paid leave sounds pretty nice but no overtime pay is...well, I don't know AUS law but that sucks.

If I include the New Years holiday, I'm getting about 4 weeks paid a year too. We're getting screwed on national holidays in Japan next year though. 4 of them fall on Saturdays

One thing that I think is really shitty in Japan is the assumed overtime built into a lot of employment contracts. Your base pay is XXXX yen and that includes an average overtime pay of 40 hours per month or whatever. Fucking bullshit.

[Mike Oxlong]

[Yokohammer]

Somebody please translate this and post it in every corporate meeting room in the country.

[wagyl]

Come on, everyone, what is with all this exaggeration?

In my experience. there were ever only two meetings a day in corporate Japan.
One ALL morning, and the other ALL afternoon.


I see alot of people saying here that they wouldn't work for a big Japanese company again.
It took me more years to discover than I want to admit, but my own feeling is that I wouldn't work for a big company again, no matter what its nationality. I suspect that I am not alone in that sentiment, just that a lot of you do not realise it yet.

[Yokohammer]

In my experience. there were ever only two meetings a day in corporate Japan.
One ALL morning, and the other ALL afternoon.

Yes, and they were all VERY important. VERY, VERY important.
At least that's what I was told. But then you get to the damn meeting, and after some drone has finished slooowly reading the documents all attendees were given a day and a half in advance and instructed to read before the meeting, then there's an hour and forty five minutes of um-ing and ah-ing interspersed with a coffee/toilet break and maybe another 30 minutes spent scheduling the next meeting.

If I'm exaggerating, it's only very slight.

I put up with that shit for 10 years, wondering why I was chronically too numb to get any real work done.

Eventually I figured it out and quit, and I've been happily independent for 25+ years. I will NEVER go back to a corporate environment ... unless, of course, there's an obscene amount of money involved.

[Coligny]

I've been half corpo-half academic... I'd work for free in the academic side (was there as sysadmin).

I would gladely engrave bullets with the name of the c*cksuckers from the corporate side and deliver them personnaly. Pompous Incompetent backstabbing bitches. In a 100+ company I can recount the number of worthy peeps on 1 hand... and even less if I have to include their professionnal skillz.

I worked with a guy (adorable though) who one day decided to sort the rules of the firewall by alphabetical order (instead of priority...). Former army battletank squad commander, even more anal retentive than me but not always thinking everything through. Following rules blindly, if a manual was saying to tighten the bolts firmly but omitted to tell to put the wheel in first he would stubornly drive off without and consider the sparkles behind as normal but annoying behaviour. Damn... this guy was made for japan in fact...

[Mike Oxlong]

[SIZE="4"]No More Angling for the Best Seat; More Meetings Are Stand-Up Jobs[/SIZE]
Companies Ban Sitting to Speed Things Up; Ralph the Chicken Decides Next Speaker

Atomic Object, a Grand Rapids, Mich., software-development firm, holds company meetings first thing in the morning.

Employees follow strict rules: Attendance is mandatory, nonwork chitchat is kept to a minimum and, above all, everyone has to stand up.

Stand-up meetings are part of a fast-moving tech culture in which sitting has become synonymous with sloth. The object is to eliminate long-winded confabs where participants pontificate, play Angry Birds on their cellphones or tune out.

Atomic Object even frowns upon tables during meetings. "They make it too easy to lean or rest laptops," explains Michael Marsiglia, vice president. At the end of the meetings, which rarely last more than five minutes, employees typically do a quick stretch and then "go on with their day," he says.

Holding meetings standing up isn't new. Some military leaders did it during World War I, according to Allen Bluedorn, a business professor at the University of Missouri. A number of companies have adopted stand-up meetings over the years. Mr. Bluedorn did a study back in 1998 that found that standing meetings were about a third shorter than sitting meetings and the quality of decision-making was about the same...

WSJ Onrine