Fucked by Japanese landlords-your story wanted

[Cyka UchuuJin]

Your big contribution to this thread is complaining about the complaining? Well done sir, you've won.

[Behan]

Shikin is kept by landlords 99% of the time and I support Japanese landlords 100%.

GAIJIN WESTERNERS have an unmerited sense of entitlement due to inherent racism.

Shut up and stop complaining!

Takechan's alter-ego account?

[Cyka UchuuJin]

Your big contribution to this thread is complaining about the complaining? Well done sir, you've won.

[wuchan]

Takechan's alter-ego account?

fuck, you beat me to it.

[Catoneinutica]

Shikin is kept by landlords 99% of the time and I support Japanese landlords 100%.

GAIJIN WESTERNERS have an unmerited sense of entitlement due to inherent racism.

Shut up and stop complaining!

We know we belong to the land
And the land we belong to is grand!
And when we say
Yeeow! Ayipioeeay!
We're only sayin'
You're doin' fine, Oklahoma!
Oklahoma O.K.
L - A - H - O - M - A
OKLAHOMA!
Yeeow!

[Mulboyne]

[Yokohammer]

This means that it may yet go to all the way to the Supreme Court because landlords have become accustomed to seeing koshinryo as a gift and this decision has repercussions for the whole letting industry.

I was under the impression that at least part of the koushinryou went to the real estate agent who is handling the landlord's property, as sort of a regular "commission." So it's not exactly a gift to the landlord.

[Iraira]

[Doctor Stop]

I haven't paid koshinryo, although the real estate tried and tried to get it out of me, eventually gave up and haven't bothered me for many years since. My argument was that there was no legal basis for me to pay it.

Note that this ruling was based on the Consumer Protection Law. That's the law that brought down Nova.

[Mike Oxlong]

[Yokohammer]

[Mulboyne]

The Osaka High Court has turned down the landlord's appeal and upheld the other court's ruling that charging koshinryo is illegal. Asahi story in Japanese here. The court rejected the landlord's claim that the charge represented compensation for the landlord "waiving his right to refuse to renew the contract". The court pointed out the the landlord retained all such rights under existing laws and was not legally "waiving" anything. The landlord's other claim was that the charge represented supplementary rent which the court also rejected. The court concluded that the charge represents a "hidden cost" which is illegal under consumer protection laws. The landlord intends to appeal to a higher court.

[Samurai_Jerk]

The Osaka High Court has turned down the landlord's appeal and upheld the other court's ruling that charging koshinryo is illegal. Asahi story in Japanese here. The court rejected the landlord's claim that the charge represented compensation for the landlord "waiving his right to refuse to renew the contract". The court pointed out the the landlord retained all such rights under existing laws and was not legally "waiving" anything. The landlord's other claim was that the charge represented supplementary rent which the court also rejected. The court concluded that the charge represents a "hidden cost" which is illegal under consumer protection laws. The landlord intends to appeal to a higher court.

It sounds good but isn't the issue here that the koshinryo wasn't written in the original lease? Wouldn't putting it in the lease (like every one I've signed in Japan) make it legal?

[Mulboyne]

It sounds good but isn't the issue here that the koshinryo wasn't written in the original lease? Wouldn't putting it in the lease (like every one I've signed in Japan) make it legal?

Actually, the account of these decisionsby Philip Brasor in the Japan Times indicates I got the wrong end of the stick. The Osaka High Court decision on the 27th rejected a landlord's appeal in a different case. The issue was similar, however. Brasor also goes on to address your point:

These two rulings were based on a relatively new regulation that probably wasn't intended to be applied to rental properties. Both judges cited a consumer protection law that went into effect in 2001 when they said that contract renewal fees are not legally justifiable and place an unnecessary burden on tenants. Usually, when judges hear rent disputes, they follow laws that define the respective rights of landlords and tenants, and previously they ruled in favor of landlords as long as the extraneous fees being contended were explained in the contract. Two such cases were tried earlier this year in Osaka and both ended in the landlords' favor.

Not surprisingly, landlords, as well as the realtors and property management companies who serve them, are up in arms. The defendant plans to appeal, and a group called the Association to Consider the Rental Apartment Contract Renewal Fee Issue published on its Web site a point-by-point rebuttal of the ruling, saying that the judge demonstrated "unfair bias" toward "consumer protection" and did not consider the "position of the landlord"; that the fees were "explained clearly" in the rental agreement, which the tenant signed; and that koshinryo has a "40-year history" as a business practice.

In court, the defendant's lawyer argued that koshinryo is compensation to the landlord for waiving his right to "refuse to renew a contract." According to an expert interviewed by the Asahi Shimbun, this twisty logic refers to a law that prevents tenants from being thrown out of their homes without just cause. Because the landlord doesn't have the right to evict a tenant simply because it pleases him to do so, he expects to be compensated for giving up that right.

The landlord also said that koshinryo "supplements" the rent, which the judge rejected out of hand. What exactly is the fee paying for that the rent isn't? Such expenses should be incorporated into the monthly rent so that the tenant can understand exactly how much he's paying.

And that's where the arbitrariness of koshinryo becomes clear. As it happens, right now it's a tenants market, and landlords and realtors, who tend to split koshinryo, are desperate for renters. In the column "How to Determine Rent," the online rental real estate industry magazine Manetto states that the worst thing landlords can do is allow their properties to remain vacant. They should lower the rent to attract tenants, and if they need more revenue, "increase the rent at the time of the contract renewal."

Manetto doesn't mention koshinryo, but you don't have to be Gordon Gekko to draw the logical conclusion: Calculate your desired rate of return, set a rent that attracts tenants, and then make up for the shortfall with gratuitous fees like koshinryo. Once people are settled into a residence they are less inclined to move even if they think they're being ripped off.

An important aspect of this case that hasn't been discussed is why the plaintiff waited until after he'd paid koshinryo five times before he sued. The Asahi reported that the suit developed after he called a tenants hotline set up by a group of lawyers, who were obviously fishing for cases they could bring to court to test the consumer protection law and set a precedent that would effectively change rental practices. In the press conference following the ruling, one of the plaintiff's lawyers called koshinryo an "evil business custom."

The lawyers were doing what they're supposed to be doing, which is more than you can say for the land ministry. The government has never shown any interest in protecting renters from the imperious opportunism of the real estate industry. When it comes to housing, they're only interested in homeowners, but if the koshinryo precedent sticks they'll have to acknowledge that tenants are people, too.

[Mulboyne]

[Mulboyne]

[matsuki]

It will eventually become a mute point with they can't find anyone to accept their terms.

[Samurai_Jerk]

So my lease is up at the end of this month and I am (was?) planning to renew. I got a notice in the mail saying there is a new owner earlier this month which I didn't think much of. I emailed the new owner a couple of times regarding renewing my lease and started to get a little worried because I got no response. I got one today and they told me no problem we'll send you the new paperwork and, oh, by the way, please include a one month's rent renewal fee with your rent. The previous owner didn't charge one and they're only telling me now five days before my lease expires. Also, there's no renewal fee according to my previous lease. Looks like it's time for a fight.

[matsuki]

So my lease is up at the end of this month and I am (was?) planning to renew. I got a notice in the mail saying there is a new owner earlier this month which I didn't think much of. I emailed the new owner a couple of times regarding renewing my lease and started to get a little worried because I got no response. I got one today and they told me no problem we'll send you the new paperwork and, oh, by the way, please include a one month's rent renewal fee with your rent. The previous owner didn't charge one and they're only telling me now five days before my lease expires. Also, there's no renewal fee according to my previous lease. Looks like it's time for a fight.

Ugh...I hope they back down right off the bat as those are never fun battles.

[Yokohammer]

So my lease is up at the end of this month and I am (was?) planning to renew. I got a notice in the mail saying there is a new owner earlier this month which I didn't think much of. I emailed the new owner a couple of times regarding renewing my lease and started to get a little worried because I got no response. I got one today and they told me no problem we'll send you the new paperwork and, oh, by the way, please include a one month's rent renewal fee with your rent. The previous owner didn't charge one and they're only telling me now five days before my lease expires. Also, there's no renewal fee according to my previous lease. Looks like it's time for a fight.

Since you'll be renewing based on the conditions of your original contract, and if that original contract doesn't stipulate a renewal fee, there's no need to pay it.

Don't think you need to fight (yet), just point out the facts. Gently. Should be OK.

If the new owners want to be assholes about it they could insist on a new contract, but they can't force you to do that either.

[Samurai_Jerk]

Since you'll be renewing based on the conditions of your original contract, and if that original contract doesn't stipulate a renewal fee, there's no need to pay it.

Don't think you need to fight (yet), just point out the facts. Gently. Should be OK.

If the new owners want to be assholes about it they could insist on a new contract, but they can't force you to do that either.

Yeah, I just called the old owner to make sure (I was right) and called the new owner to say I shouldn't have to pay one according to my lease. He told me he'd double check my contract and get back to me and if I'm right I won't have to pay. He said there may have been some confusion because all the other apartments do have that as part of their lease. I'm 99.9% sure that's BS and he was just trying to pull a fast one hoping I'd agree. Let's see how it turns out.

[GomiGirl]

Yeah, I just called the old owner to make sure (I was right) and called the new owner to say I shouldn't have to pay one according to my lease. He told me he'd double check my contract and get back to me and if I'm right I won't have to pay. He said there may have been some confusion because all the other apartments do have that as part of their lease. I'm 99.9% sure that's BS and he was just trying to pull a fast one hoping I'd agree. Let's see how it turns out.

Got a copy of the contract handy?

[Samurai_Jerk]

Got a copy of the contract handy?

I'm at work so I didn't have it handy which is why I called the previous owner. I keep everything like that in a file at home so it'll be easy to check later.

[Cyka UchuuJin]

Yeah, I just called the old owner to make sure (I was right) and called the new owner to say I shouldn't have to pay one according to my lease. He told me he'd double check my contract and get back to me and if I'm right I won't have to pay. He said there may have been some confusion because all the other apartments do have that as part of their lease. I'm 99.9% sure that's BS and he was just trying to pull a fast one hoping I'd agree. Let's see how it turns out.

definitely sounds like he's trying to pull one over on the stupid gaijin.

tell 'em you'll send your bitch russian wife around to sort him out.

[Coligny]

Th3 GIS for 'Russian Bitch'...


It disapointz...



Seriously...

WTF google...

[Greji]

definitely sounds like he's trying to pull one over on the stupid gaijin.

tell 'em you'll send your bitch russian wife around to sort him out.

You must not be talking to me. I don't usually marry Russian bitches. At least not that frequently.

[matsuki]

I wouldn't mind me a Russian lemur that doubled as a bodyguard...but it's a no go if she has bigger biceps than me. (no telling what she'd do when she found out there are more than two lemurs in this conspiracy)

[Greji]

I wouldn't mind me a Russian lemur that doubled as a bodyguard...but it's a no go if she has bigger biceps than me. (no telling what she'd do when she found out there are more than two lemurs in this conspiracy)

Cyka looks pretty good, if you don't pay attention to the mustache and the red and white hip hugger argyles.

[matsuki]

Cyka looks pretty good, if you don't pay attention to the mustache and the red and white hip hugger argyles.

In Soviet Russia lemur choose you!

[Samurai_Jerk]

This guy took his landlord to small claims court and won.

I recently moved out of an apartment in Tokyo I'd been renting and living in for about about 2.5 years. I took good care of the place, and expected little trouble when moving out. Consequently, I was astounded and angered when I received a check-out bill for about JPY360,000 (amounting to 1.5 times the monthly rent, at the time $3,000) for cleaning and refurbisihing.

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