Tohoku Earthquake, Tsunami and Nuclear Disaster!!!

[CrankyBastard]

Yokohammer and canman, you kept it together when it was at it's worst last year. We were sat on our arses just reading about what you were going through.
I hope we all come to our senses soon.

[Mike Oxlong]

I have to agree with Yokohammer on this one. We have a ton of debris to be disposed of, but there is just not enough incinerators to get the job done. This debris, which I'm fairly sure is not radioactive, considering we are further away from Fukushima than most of you Kanto people are, is really causing a headache for reconstruction. There is no place to put it, while waiting for it to be disposed of, so any work to get homes and buildings and other things built is put on hold. The reason there is a rush to get this done, is precisely the complaint the gov't has been facing not enough rebuilding and reconstruction. But if you have piles of waste taking up space, then how can you start to rebuild?
While I also agree with the idea of trying to dispose of the material near where it is, it would take at lest two years to build facilities to burn this. The cost would be huge, adding to the huge debt, and then in a few years when the ruble was finally disposed of, they would sit there as white elephants and everybody would blame the gov't for wasting more money.

Many of the places that "want to" accept waste don't have incinerators that can handle the debris, so the government will build new ones for them for that purpose, as well as giving large bribes grants to accept debris. This will take as much time as building them on site, and take away funds that should be used directly in Tohoku. If you are going to throw tax dollars at construction companies, transport companies, and waste disposal companies, why not throw it at Tohoku companies so that the people there get some work and some money spent in and around the disaster zone?

[Coligny]

Aside from other problems introduced here. Let's go back to my original link:

Hideaki Omura (Aichi Governor), has decided to spend 600 million yen to plan for the incineration plant

As of now there is no capacity whatsoever. Just money to be stolen in a pork barrell project. With cherry on the cake a factory site that just decide to allow himself to become a landfill. I think most first world countries don't exactly allows these kind of overnight switches without proper paperwork.

Beside, if memory serve me well, most of the damaged area sunk one meter. If there are places that need landfill material... that would be them.

[Mike Oxlong]

Status of Accepting Rubble from Tsunami Striken Areas: Map & List

http://one-world.happy-net.jp/ukeire/

[Yokohammer]

Just a random thought.

This reminds me so much of the way people responded to the emergence of AIDS in the early 80's. People were just scared shitless of something they didn't understand. Ambulance staff were refusing to transport patients, hospitals were refusing to accept patients, medical professionals refused to even touch patients.

The dark ages. It took years to straighten that out.

A lot of what's happening now looks very similar.

[CrankyBastard]

Fear now coupled with mistrust.
And unfortunately, psychology rather than science.

[Coligny]

No, Aids in the 80's was considered a "th3 Ghey and Druggies "disease and therefore did not worry anybody else. That why so many hemophile were hit. I don't remember a second of so called panic and at that time my mother (the real one, not the drunkard trailer trash sloth that I usually picture to give me someone to blame for everything) was assistant of the director of the french CNTS (blood bank). The only MAJOR issue with aids was that prevention involved to talk aboot sexuality. Aside from this, the time between realisation of a pandemic and isolation of the mechanism involved was really not what could be considered a period of chaos and fear. Mostly because those good christian of old europe saw it as a punition against the sins of homosexuality and drug use, which was totally ok in their book.

Now...

People were just scared shitless of something they didn't understand

That the way it should work, as long as you don't get it, be scared and carefull (that don't mean run out of the room while screaming). If you setup quarantine early enough you save lives for the price of inconveniencing few.


There is a HUGE amount of stupid going on here. The places actually destroyed were also destroyed during the previous huge tsunami. Insisting on rebuilding there seems to be a provocation against Darwin. Relocate the people, not the trash.

[CrankyBastard]

There is a HUGE amount of stupid going on here. The places actually destroyed where also destroyed during the previous huge tsunami. Insisting on rebuilding there seems to be a provocation against Darwin. Relocate the people, not the trash.

And before the next ice-age comes we should all relocate to the tropics.

[Mike Oxlong]

You wanna talk science? Like all the crap of comparing ionizing radiation from man-made sources like nuclear reactors, medical imaging and cancer treatment, and compare it with naturally occuring non-ionizing radiation like the potassium in bananas and the earth's background radiation? Why don't we just finally finish off the ozone layer and let the ionizing cosmic radiation bathe us in friendly tanning rays?

[Coligny]

Why don't we just finally finish off the ozone layer and let the ionizing cosmic radiation bathe us in friendly tanning rays?

Carefull wif' dat'

[canman]

Two points, first off Mike, really, places don't have any facilities to burn the debris? I have a hard time believing that since it is a policy of the national gov't to burn most garbage, so they must have some facilities that can take some of the waste. Also, our local cement company has agreed to burn as much as they can, but again, the sheer amount is beyond their capacity.
Coligny, what are you smoking! For gods sake, people in NA were afraid of getting aids from drinking fountains, and from mosquito bites! That is how paranoid they were. Yes, at first it was thought to be a druggy, gay disease, but when it started to move into the hemophiliac community and people like Magic Johnson were infected, there was outright panic.
And one more point, I don't think you want to use this debris as land fill, not unless you want what happened in Urayasu Chiba after the last big earthquake.

[Mike Oxlong]

Two points...really, places don't have any facilities to burn the debris? I have a hard time believing that...

I posted this before, but it may be instructive for you to have another look:

[INDENT]2 Other Reasons Why Municipalities in Japan Want Disaster Debris

The first and foremost is a fat subsidy they will get from the national government (which is beyond broke, so it will tax the citizens today and for the foreseeable future) for saying yes to having the disaster debris contaminated with radioactive materials and toxic chemicals shipped to their cities and towns to burn and bury the resulting ashes.

But it is slowly emerging that there are equally short-term, other reasons these local politicians and bureaucrats want the contaminated debris.

1. The incinerators, if they are state-of-the-art, need more garbage even to operate, so the disaster debris is god-sent]

http://ex-skf.blogspot.jp/2012/03/2-other-reasons-why-municipalities-in.html

[canman]

Ok, I read the article and all it told me is that the author has drunk the cool aid that all the debris is radioactive and toxic which we know it is not! Also the article states that many of these incinerators are state of the art and don't release toxins or other harmless chemicals. So the incinerators are built and ready to burn all they need is fuel, so why not use them.
The final point is if the debris is not sent out to be burned, then what should be done with it?

[Mike Oxlong]

Ok, I read the article and all it told me is that the author has drunk the cool aid that all the debris is radioactive and toxic which we know it is not!

Kindly point out where the author states that all the debris is radioactive and toxic. I can't seem to find that part.

Also the article states that many of these incinerators are state of the art and don't release toxins or other harmless chemicals. So the incinerators are built and ready to burn all they need is fuel, so why not use them.
The final point is if the debris is not sent out to be burned, then what should be done with it?

He states that those incinerators that are state-of-the-art need to burn at a certain temp for long periods of time, and that the places that host them do not have enough garbage for that. In other words, these things were built in places that did not have the volume of trash necessary to operate them properly, so they are willing to import practically anything from anywhere to keep their white elephants from dying. Even then, it appears there are not enough of these to take care of the disaster debris, so more will be built around the country, sending money to places that have less need of funds than say...I don't know, Tohoku. If they need to build/upgrade a bunch of incinerators, it makes the most sense to start by doing it in Tohoku.

[canman]

The first and foremost is a fat subsidy they will get from the national government (which is beyond broke, so it will tax the citizens today and for the foreseeable future) for saying yes to having the disaster debris contaminated with radioactive materials and toxic chemicals shipped to their cities and towns to burn and bury the resulting ashes.

This is from the first paragraph from the link you posted.

[Mike Oxlong]

Canman: Ok, I read the article and all it told me is that the author has drunk the cool aid that all the debris is radioactive and toxic which we know it is not!

"The first and foremost is a fat subsidy they will get from the national government (which is beyond broke, so it will tax the citizens today and for the foreseeable future) for saying yes to having the disaster debris contaminated with radioactive materials and toxic chemicals shipped to their cities and towns to burn and bury the resulting ashes."

This is from the first paragraph from the link you posted.

What I read is that some of the debris is contaminated with radioactivity, and some with toxic chemicals. Let's say I'm wrong and the author meant it's all contaminated with radioactivity. How do you demonstrate he's wrong? I mean that seriously - what are you citing as counter-evidence to his news reports, interviews, and data from various agencies?

[dimwit]

I tend to agree with Mike about the levels of corruption involved in the transport of debris and am irked by the fact that few of these municipalities have made any plans regarding how they wish to proceed with rebuilding, which I think are highly necessary before deciding how and where to dispose of the waste.

I don't buy into the argument the waste from Tohoku is particularly toxic and for the most part I doubt that radiation is at all a factor for most lcoations within Miyagi and Iwate. As for other toxins, I would be willing to bet that the site the waste is being transported to are worse.

In all fairness, I am not on the ground in Tohoku and I don't know the extent to which debris are taking up potential building/usuable space, but seems to me that building material such as concrete would be best left where they are and used to build either berms or protective barriers.

The real problem, I suspect is all the plastic shit amongst the rubble the can only be safely burned in an incinerator, and given that this is Japan, I am sure that this accounts for far too much of the debris.

[Coligny]

Coligny, what are you smoking! For gods sake, people in NA were afraid of getting aids from drinking fountains, and from mosquito bites! That is how paranoid they were. Yes, at first it was thought to be a druggy, gay disease, but when it started to move into the hemophiliac community and people like Magic Johnson were infected, there was outright panic.
And one more point, I don't think you want to use this debris as land fill, not unless you want what happened in Urayasu Chiba after the last big earthquake.

I can only report from what i've seen... and in old europe... there was no massive panic. And on a side note, when you are facing a new disease with a lot of unknown and are not totally sure on the transmission modus operandi... suspecting the mosquitoes is far from paranoia. It's just looking at the usual suspects, mosquito, flea bites... guilty until proven innocent. Maybe if they had better lawyers or... NOT BEING KNOWN CARRIERS FOR QUITE FEW TROUBLESOME DISEASES... they would not have been suspected...

SAME AS THOSE FRACKING DEBRIS... anti slander laws are for people, not for waste. Since the governement change safety rules and maximum admissible level to fit his policy there is just no more trust possible. Therefore a criteria, as far as possible from governement tampering, has to be decided. For now... it's de-facto anything from Tohoku that is suspicious. That's not subtle, but after all the circus going on between tepco and the central governement it's one of the only option. Deal the issue with the sock puppets in Tokyo. Not with people who rightfully refuse to have anything to do with these shaddy deals. Establish a chain of trust... Aichi don't have the stand by capacity for these debris, new facilities have to be build. Why insisting on buidling these facilities in Aichi and not in Tohoku ?

And one last thing; there is quite a wide zone around Daiichi for which sooner or later people will have to admit that it's a nuclear wasteland. I'm pretty sure it's big enough to contain disaster debris processed or not. It would make sense but will never happen because it would oblige the governement to admit the place is fubar, admit it's because of Tepco and oblige them to offer compensation. While instead just floating the idea of reopening the no entry zone leaves everybody hopefull and delusionnal.

[Mike Oxlong]

Whoa, totally missed that! Magic Johnson announcing he was HIV+ did not panic people. Nor with Tommy Morrison's (Gunn's) announcement. Sad situations, but far from scary for the average Joe. By that time the methods of transmission were known. Perhaps some wives this side of the Pacific panicked after their hubbies brought unexpected omiyage back from Thai golf tours at that time in history...

Wayne Gretzky traded to the Kings, now THAT inspired panic!

[Coligny]

Some little waves from the prime minister who got turd sandwiches from breakfast to diner during his term:

http://enenews.com/former-prime-minister-kan-reveals-nuclear-coverup-after-fukushima-hes-devoting-himself-to-nuclear-activism-he-now-wants-to-abolish-nuclear-power-in-japan-video

[Yokohammer]

Are you guys missing the fact that new incinerators are being planned and built in Tohoku, there's just no way to build enough of 'em here?

And if you're thinking that the amount of debris is sorta like how the garbage pickup area looks after the new-year holidays, think again. We're talking about mountains of the stuff ... and remember that's debris created by the tsunami ... all up and down the coast, estimated to be about 100 years' worth at the current disposal capacity.

Some of the comments seem to imply that Tohoku is trying to have every last scrap of debris shipped elsewhere, which is another misrepresentation that needs to be quelled. "Tohoku" (primarily Fukushima, Miyagi, Iwate, and Aomori in this case) is working pretty damn hard on this.

This is what really gets my goat. The facts get all twisted to fit individual arguments, to the point where there are huge leaps of logic that just don't make sense. Everything about this mess has to be kept in perspective.

And for those who are effectively saying that the government can't be trusted so we'll just cross our arms and do nothing while complaining: blaming the government and doing nothing is the easy, lazy man's approach. It's just a procrastination/pass-the-buck tactic, whether conscious or not, and it does not help.

The first thing that must be done is to get the facts straight, and since that's probably the only thing we can actually do on a forum like this, that's exactly what we should be doing. So, here are a couple of facts to keep in mind:

1) Tohoku disaster debris was created by the tsunami, not by the nuclear accident, and most of it is not radioactive. Certainly no more so than garbage in Tokyo.

2) Tohoku is doing what it can to clean up the debris, but there's simply too much of it (100 years' worth). There's no avoiding the fact that assistance is required.

If we can just keep those two points clear, perhaps some meaningful discussion can ensue.

[Coligny]

1) Tohoku disaster debris was created by the tsunami, not by the nuclear accident, and most of it is not radioactive. Certainly no more so than garbage in Tokyo.

This point is totally irrelevant. Contamination is a post Tsunami problem still going on

2) Tohoku is doing what it can to clean up the debris, but there's simply too much of it (100 years' worth). There's no avoiding the fact that assistance is required.

This point could have been discussed much more level headedly if the governement didn't do his best to fuck everything up. Why is there absolutely no mention anywhere not even in the Gomiury or the other Pravda wannabees aboot discrimination in the treatment of the waste according to their potential contamination ? Telling "we're building special plant in Tohoku for the radioactive waste, the clean one need to be treated somewhere else" would be enough.
Instead we only got puppets telling that now that it's an uncontained problem "radiation is good for you" and a daily raise on the danger level limit that might be harmfull because it's not that good for you... In any other country it would be way past the point where every governement drone would be locked up in jail by request of civil servant in charge of public health and safety. (In case of public health threat the head of police forces at regionnal level -also called 'Prefet'- is to take orders from the chief of Civilian Protection not from the regular chain of command).

The problem is not with people refusing to help. The problem come from the central governement who might want to step down from his "my way or the highway" position before mutiny start.

[Yokohammer]

This point is totally irrelevant. Contamination is a post Tsunami problem still going on.

I disagree, and I really don't understand how you can justify that statement. It is totally relevant. How can it not be?
We're talking about absolutes here: what is contaminated is contaminated, and what is not is not. If that situation changes then we need to shift our views accordingly, but within the current timeframe it is totally relevant.

To merely dismiss this as "totally irrelevant" is just talking around the problem without addressing it head on.

This point could have been discussed much more level headedly if the governement didn't do his best to fuck everything up.

I don't get this either. So you're saying that since the government fucked up (which they most certainly did) that there's no more room for level headed discussion?

This is what I'm talking about when I say that sitting around and complaining about the government's handling of the situation is unproductive. Correct me if I'm missing an important part of your argument, but it sounds like you're just throwing your hands up and saying "shoganai" because the government aren't doing it right, and that the lax lot ought to be thrown in jail. How does that solve the problem? "They" have to change before anything can be done? That's the sort of thing the government people do incessantly among themselves without any help from us. Joining the infighting, even if it's just heckling from the bleachers, is a waste of time.

Mutiny might actually be a good thing at this point, but that can only happen if the general populace is united in policy and purpose. It doesn't have to be violent or even particularly seditious, but a united and vocal populace could very well get something done. Getting the facts straight, as I mentioned above, would be a very important part of that process.

Comments like "that's irrelevant" or "if only the government would have ..." are nothing but a dead end that should be avoided.

[nikoneko]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Yokohammer again."

Correct me if I'm wrong but a middle ground between the two of you would be there is contaminated debris and uncontaminated debris but we can't trust the current information out there to tell us which is which.

And I agree with Yokohammer pages back about this taking away from the true disaster. It's pissed me off since that everyone just kind of seemed to forget the 20000+ dead and the many more homeless to talk about the nuclear problems. It is very serious of course but there are two immediate problems and people seem to ignore the more boring one.

[Coligny]

I disagree, and I really don't understand how you can justify that statement. It is totally relevant. How can it not be?
We're talking about absolutes here: what is contaminated is contaminated, and what is not is not.

WRONG, that would be true in a context like Tchernobyl where the reactor was swiftly put under a sarcophagus. Here We still got daily release of radiation spreading randomly. Anything around that contamination source, that was not contaminated, risk for each and everyday that pass to become or become more radioactive.

AND you still don't get that this shit is absolutely not over yet, the cleanup talk however urgent they might appears to you should be on the bottom of the list. The spend fuel pool on reactor #4 is full of used and unused rods (including MOX it seems) best estimations consider than 3 years would be necessary to empty it. She's barely standing up the cooling system is a total makeshift kludge. If that thing catch fire by lack of coolant. All that happens up until now will certainly look like the good old days.

As of now, these debris talk are barely more than re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

I don't get this either. So you're saying that since the government fucked up (which they most certainly did) that there's no more room for level headed discussion?

You are using the past tense again. Like for the debris contamination, the governement continue to show only arrogance. They unilaterally decide of one solution and give no other choice than to say yes or will apply special laws to force the outcome.

This is what I'm talking about when I say that sitting around and complaining about the government's handling of the situation is unproductive.

No, criminal would be the word i'd use.

Correct me if I'm missing an important part of your argument, but it sounds like you're just throwing your hands up and saying "shoganai" because the government aren't doing it right, and that the lax lot ought to be thrown in jail. How does that solve the problem?

I'm not saying shoganai, I'm saying that unless the governement step up to restore trust by starting to punish the guilty instead of giving them universal pardon. And offer guarantee that only regular debris would be sent INSTEAD OF CHANGING THE DEFINITION OF "CONTAMINATED" by upping the limit everytime they blow it. Then it might go forward.

What they only do now is "Do as we say" and "you'r idiots radiation is good, eat vegetables from Tohoku". Beggars can't be choosers... even less patronizing choosers... To this kind of behaviour "NO" seems like a good answer.

I'm pretty sure that the UN, IAEA or even Areva can provide team of neutral inspectors to certify the safety or lack thereof fron the shipment. Unlike the J-gov they would have much to lose if their credibility was compromised.

Comments like "that's irrelevant" or "if only the government would have ..." are nothing but a dead end that should be avoided.

No, saying "you want our trust, show us that you can be trusted" and "you offer technical solutions saying they are harmless so stop changing the definition of harm and go back to what it was before March 11 2011" Is something that should not even need to be asked.

[Coligny]

Correct me if I'm wrong but a middle ground between the two of you would be there is contaminated debris and uncontaminated debris but we can't trust the current information out there to tell us which is which.

I would say more that as of now, there are debris. until checked they can't be considered contaminated or uncontaminated. Therefore they fall in the 'unknown level of threat' category, which in first world countries would require quarantining them until deemed safe. (the rule being "when you don't know assume the worst") But in Japan seems to trigger the opposite "ship everywhere and say 'sorry' ". The added problem being that any test done by the governement BECAUSE of their behaviour up until now (and still running) have absolutely no value whatsoever. Therefore an independant commission would have to be mandated.

That's a lot of problem resulting from years of corruption, laissez-faire, incompetence and 'shoganais'. The kind of castle of cards that barely stand in normal times but collapse easily. It's not the good time to ask for these kind of debt to be settled. But it's a perfect storm that can surprise nobody.

So basically as long as nothing to improve the perception of the good faith from the main actors is done. Tohoku's problems are... for Tohoku...

[Mike Oxlong]

And we've barely discussed other pollutants. Industrial areas and facilities were also destroyed, and the chemicals mixed in with the residential and business debris. What of the petroleum, asbestos, arsenic, dioxins, and any number of other toxic chemicals and harmful substances - have they been checked and cleared? Assuming it's not radioactive does not automatically bestow safe status...

[Coligny]

[Screwed-down Hairdo]

Wayne Gretzky traded to the Kings, now THAT inspired panic!

Not a patch on what happened when Barassi transferred to Carlton...

[Yokohammer]

Tohoku's problems are... for Tohoku...

And there, in that final note, is an unrealistic and offensive thought that is the chief fallacy in everything you say.

I'm sorry, but it's a Japan problem. Not because it should be because of some moral or social creed, but because it already is. It's a done deed, in terms of physical dissemination, human exodus, social interaction, distribution of goods, politics ... everything.

Quarantine is simply not an option. You should have noticed by now.

What you're suggesting is impossible, and therefore doesn't even warrant argument. So, as I'm saying, it's probably more productive to focus on what needs to be done and how to go about it than waste energy trying to close doors that have already been blown off their hinges.

Really, if you don't want to deal with this the only option is to leave the country. And I don't mean that in a snarky "well if you don't like it why don't you leave" sort of way, I literally mean that if you or anyone else doesn't want to deal with the fallout (pun intended) from the Fukushima nuke accident, the only option is to leave. If you're planning to stick around, then you're going to have to deal with it.