Highly Dangerous Materials: Lithium Batteries

[cstaylor]

I think they will eventually go that route, just a matter of enough time to make it cheap and safer.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to FG Lurker again.

[Coligny]

i dont think he is listening to you...

I do, It's just that LiPo fire I witnessed or videos of them always show fires that are either violent and extremly short or less violent and lasting no more than few minutes anyway. It's not lasting runaway process. If there is nothing around to catch fire (like shown on the survival video) it's not going to last. All the big accident reported by hobbyist are when the lipo was charged near something easily flamable. If there is nothing flamable beside... the fire wont reach much proportion. That's the principle with charging pouches. They contain the potential fire long enough for the battery to run out of steam. So while oxygen suppressor fire fighting systems won't stop the lipo from burning they have big chances to stop anyfire from spreading. Think of lipo as matchsticks... burn easily, but not so much to burn.

Decompression would have disastrous result... the lipo pouch is build at around 1atm sea level pressure... If you depressurize you have chances to reach the point where the pouch can't contain the internal pressure, burst and if their is still enough oxygen trigger a fire.

[Coligny]

Yeah, in the end IANAP either. I would imagine there are good reasons these planes aren't already UAVs, probably a combination of technology and costs. I think they will eventually go that route, just a matter of enough time to make it cheap and safer.

I honestly think that the day these control system are allowed, we will see them first used for commercial transport blimp (solar powered ?). Could lead to (a bit slower) but much cheaper cargo air travel.

[Tsuru]

This is one of many reasons for UAV technology to enter the commercial space.

I can't see a reason for human pilots in the airfreight business, but I'm not a pilot so maybe I'm missing something.

There have been trials where ATC assumes control of an airliner at altitude through an uplink to the FMS and guides it to a safe automatic landing, with no further action required from the flightdeck. Strictly speaking the only thing you really need pilots for in an airliner with a 3-axis fail-active autoland system (which these days, is most of them) is the takeoff. Modern airliners (pax as well as cargo) are more than capable of handling the rest of the flight completely automatically, even in case of an engine failure on final approach something like that. Unlike in 2001, all large aircraft have now been fitted with systems which can prevent it from crashing into other aircraft, high terrain and high buildings, so a scenario where the aircraft's controls are locked out and the aircraft is landed from the outside in case of a hijack or pilot incapacitation is not too far off.

The problem for passenger airliners is that you want someone up there flying the aircraft who, if the shit hits the fan, shares his fate with his passengers and as such will do everything possible to make it back safely. For cargo aircraft no such philosophical issue exists, so yes, it can be done tomorrow if we wanted to.

[FG Lurker]

I do, It's just that LiPo fire I witnessed or videos of them always show fires that are either violent and extremly short or less violent and lasting no more than few minutes anyway.

Lots of details why lithium battery fires are so dangerous in this article. Bulk shipments are the biggest danger.

[Coligny]

Lots of details why lithium battery fires are so dangerous in this article. Bulk shipments are the biggest danger.

I'm pretty sur you can add the fact that aluminum or magnesium enclosure of some electronic devices make a perfect storm of bad idea...

BTW... for anything flamable... if you add "in bulk" to the description... You'r not going to have a safe trip...

[FG Lurker]

I'm pretty sur you can add the fact that aluminum or magnesium enclosure of some electronic devices make a perfect storm of bad idea...

Aluminum enclosures wouldn't really matter considering the entire plane is made of the stuff... Magnesium though, that shit on fire is scary.

BTW... for anything flamable... if you add "in bulk" to the description... You'r not going to have a safe trip...

Agreed.

[gaijinpunch]

Considering Lithium batteries are in... oh... everything these days, wouldn't you assume they'd be figuring out ways to ship them safely?

[Coligny]

Lipo lab goes kaboom:

http://www.worldcarfans.com/112041143315/explosion-rocks-gm-tech-center---lithium-ion-batteries

[matsuki]

Wow...they are cracking down like crazy on these. Had a few shipments that I had to remove them from. Thing is, nearly all batteries can explode/cause problems when punctured...instead of banning Lith battery shipments, they should be requiring packing to meet standard for shipping them like they do with so many other things. How about "FRAGILE - Lithium Ion Batteries inside" stickers?

[Yokohammer]

So how is this going to work?

I was under the impression that computer and phone batteries were mostly Li-ion (which can also be dangerous), but I have just learned that the iPad, iPhone, and even my MacBook Air all have Li-po batteries in 'em! Apparently lots of other everyday type stuff does as well.

Surely they ship (fly) that sort of thing in fairly large quantities?

[FG Lurker]

They fly them on cargo planes and they have to declare them as hazardous. JP ships stuff on passenger planes that aren't supposed to carry hazardous cargo. (That's my understanding of it anyway.)

[Coligny]

They fly them on cargo planes and they have to declare them as hazardous. JP ships stuff on passenger planes that aren't supposed to carry hazardous cargo. (That's my understanding of it anyway.)

Well.... except for passengers with their IPad and Iphones...

(stop the planet, I want out)

[FG Lurker]

Well.... except for passengers with their IPad and Iphones...

(stop the planet, I want out)

I agree, it's a bit nuts. I think the idea is that a passenger is likely to notice his phone etc is on fire and try to do something about it. A fire in the cargo hold with luggage is more likely to spread.

[Coligny]

I agree, it's a bit nuts. I think the idea is that a passenger is likely to notice his phone etc is on fire and try to do something about it. A fire in the cargo hold with luggage is more likely to spread.

A Sony laptop (from the "exploding battery" fiasco) in the overhead compartment would not be detected until it's a bit too late...

Sometimes... you have to accept to take risks... stay at home... or decide that the technology is not mature enough for casual daily use... (nukular... lipo...)