... and behind it all... racism

[cstaylor]

Well, I knew this was coming...
Subtext in South Korea: Payback for Colonialism

"Beating Japan in Japan would be the ultimate payback," said Kim Sun Young, a 31-year-old English teacher here. "But the very fact of winning the World Cup inside Japan would show all the Japanese people `[b]we're No. 1].' The oppressors can easily forget what they've done. Victims never forget."

Payback for what? This moron was born in the early 1970s, a good 25 years after the last of the colonials left Korea. Who has been brainwashing the young into "remembering the oppression"? If we turned this around, and by some accident of birth he was born Japanese, does that mean he should carry the guilt of his ancestors?

I don't know very many Koreans (I did in the U.S., but they didn't buy into this hate speech), but is this view the dominant one? If so, the general population needs to take a collective look at themselves and ask, "why are we constantly defining ourselves in relation to Japan? Can't we be proud of our accomplishments without resorting to finger pointing?"

[cstaylor]

"Passing Japan gives us a huge boost in our national pride," said Bok H. An, a 30-year-old cellphone executive. "One little soccer ball united a whole country. No one ever dreamed we'd get this far. Imagine winning, in Japan! I think it would be bigger than the unification of Korea, in terms of the joy of the people. It would wipe away our past."

Winning a game would erase the horrors of foreign occupation?

[Crispy]

I was about to say, if winning a fucking football game is all they need to erase all the horrors of the past, why is Japan working so hard on this textbook revision stuff?

[cstaylor]

This is purely conjecture (because I'm not a professional grudge-keeper like some of the people quoted in the article), but if I'd say that this would just fuel them for more, not satiate their self-made inferiority complex.

I don't understand why some Koreans (for example, those quoted in the NY Times article) see themselves the way they do... I don't think its very healthy.

[Crispy]

There are groups of people out there who define themselves by being the opposite of another group. The Palestinians would be the obvious example. I hope South Korea can break out of defining themselves that way...

[cstaylor]

as a gaijin from the western countries,probably is hard to understand the Japanese as much as Koreans, or the Chinese. At home,stories of "how the Japanese had tortured the local in the second world war" were told to the children always.How can you like someone or the other race that had chopped off your grandfather's head and forced your grandmother into prostitution in the second world war? It is unhealthy,but probably the past is just too painful and it takes a long time to forgive and forget.

I guess that's my big beef with Confucion thinking: that a person has any say in the circumstances of their birth. Okay, let's take the points you've made:

- Japanese soldiers tortured non-combatants during the war: true
- Japanese soldiers systematically raped the women of occupied areas: true
- The old and infirm were put to the sword by Japanese soldiers: true

These are all undisputed historical facts. But, and a BIG but, what impact does this have on Koreans and Japanese born after the August 15th surrender? Nothing.

Let me make this clear: all of the pain, all of unthinkable butchery, are stories to those who have not experienced them. Keeping the hate going doesn't do the Koreans any good, nor does the desire of some Japanese to sweep the entire mess under the rug.

I'm really surprised that I never hear (at least printed in English newspapers) Koreans blaming the U.S. for Japan's initial colonial gains in South Korea: it was a bartering point granted by President Theodore Roosevelt during the end-negotiations of the Russo-Japanese war.

[Ataru]

There's also the fact that one of the reasons that a lot of these atrocities can still be easily denied is because the US didn't put enough effort bringing them to light after the WWII, like we did with the Nazis. We let a bunch of war criminals off the hook because we thought they might be useful later on.. war criminals that also tortured and experimented on US soldiers...

[cstaylor]

I wouldn't put the blame entirely on the shoulders of the American government... the Japanese military officials were quickly burning all records of their atrocities before the official Allied Occupation started.

At the end of World War II in 1945, the Allied forces, headed by the United States, created the International Military Tribunal (IMT) to try the major Japanese war criminals in Tokyo, Japan. The International Prosecution Section (IPS) was responsible for investigating war crimes. However, their job was made almost impossible. Before the Allied forces landed in Japan, the Japanese government had destroyed or altered many incriminating evidences. Also the eagerness of the landing Allied forces to rescue their POWs contributed to the chaos. "Rapid demobilization and repatriation of ex-POWs, witnesses and evidence scattered literally throughout the world, wholesale destruction of key documents by Japanese, incredible difficulties in identifying, locating and apprehending suspects in Japan proper and East Asia and other factors combined to render nearly impossible the tasks given to Allied prosecutors"

[kamome]

I think the premise of CS's arguments, that the past has nothing to do with the present, is completely off the mark. I agree that it's not good to continue hating a past oppressor, but there is a lot of value in remembering the past. The biggest positive is that it can prevent the same horrible thing from happening again.

To characterize the past atrocities as just "stories" for anyone born after the Aug. 15th surrender belittles the memories of those slain by Japanese colonialists.

A better middle ground for Koreans is to maintain the debate, remind others of what happened, remain vigilant so that it never happens again, and yet try to repair old wounds and establish new ties of friendship. That's what the descendants of Jews killed in the Holocaust attempt to do all the time. Otherwise people would just drown in their own hate.

[cstaylor]

I'm really surprised that I never hear (at least printed in English newspapers) Koreans blaming the U.S. for Japan's initial colonial gains in South Korea: it was a bartering point granted by.....

Sorry Tin, I'll rephrase:
"Japan invaded Korea at the beginning of the 20th century. America, after the invasion had already happened, signed an agreement with the Japanese acknowledging their terroritorial claims to Korea in exchange for peace with Russia".

However we actually grateful for US to end everthing (in Japan) in the world war too..

War is a nasty business. Let's hope we can keep the peace, because another global war might be the end for all.

[cstaylor]

To characterize the past atrocities as just "stories" for anyone born after the Aug. 15th surrender belittles the memories of those slain by Japanese colonialists

I don't see how it belittles the memories of the fallen to understand history without letting the hate (understandable for the victims, incomprehensible from their children and grandchildren) color their actions and words.

A better middle ground for Koreans is to maintain the debate, remind others of what happened, remain vigilant so that it never happens again, and yet try to repair old wounds and establish new ties of friendship. That's what the descendants of Jews killed in the Holocaust attempt to do all the time.

That was my whole point all along. Don't carry the baggage of the past into the possibilities of the future. Understand it as part of a greater historical context. Pushing the guilt or the anger onto a second generation doesn't do anyone any good. It's absurd, to hate a race for past transgressions. It's similar to the U.S., where some African-Americans hold European-Americans responsible for slavery and Jim Crow. Yes it happened, yes it should be discussed, yes those responsible should be punished, but directing hate at a group because of the circumstances of their birth, not for their actions?

[kamome]

Well, it's good that we agree on the bottom point. But it does belittle the memories of those slain to just call their suffering a "story". It almost smacks of fictionalizing their experience.

Since we both agree that it is important to remember what happened to the victims and to continue the debate over it, then it would follow that those experiences should be cast in the most realistic and palpable way possible. That is the only way to illustrate the horrors both of war and of racist/ethno-purist ideology.

[cstaylor]

Well, it's good that we agree on the bottom point. But it does belittle the memories of those slain to just call their suffering a "story". It almost smacks of fictionalizing their experience

So what word should replace "story"? History? I don't know about you, but the sacking of the Alamo doesn't produce a visceral effect in me, nor the attack on Columbus, New Mexico by Pancho Villa, nor the burning of the Executive Mansion by the Candians in 1814. Why? Because I wasn't alive during that time... so it's a story to me. Do I not believe it? No, of course I believe it, as it's an accepted part of history. Do I hate Mexicans or Candians for what happened? No, that wouldn't make any rational sense, as the people who were slain and the perpetrators have passed on long ago.

So, in my originating post in this thread, I pointed out that the Koreans being interviewed were not victims of anything but demons of their own minds. Their hate is imagined, because they never lived through it. Look, you have 30-somethings talking about "oppressors", as if they have felt the effects themselves. Who is teaching them to hate Japanese?

[kamome]

So what word should replace "story"? History? I don't know about you, but the sacking of the Alamo doesn't produce a visceral effect in me, nor the attack on Columbus, New Mexico by Pancho Villa, nor the burning of the Executive Mansion by the Candians in 1814.

Maybe you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their suffering as a "story" if any of those events happened to your aunt&uncle/grandparents/parents. OK, maybe currently living Koreans are overexaggerating by calling modern Japanese aggressors. But that's a different issue. One issue under discussion here is history and how it should be remembered. The other issue is whether modern peoples should continue to hate each other over past wrongs.

We agree on the second issue--the answer is a qualified "no" (qualified because it's debatable whether a wrong is in the past or if it's continuing). Koreans may even have a point that the wrong is continuing, since Japan has yet to render a convincing apology and refuses to compensate victims of forced prostitution. That's all still debatable.

The first issue, though, is where we disagree. You say that history is just a story and has no effect whatsoever on modern people. Again, I say that you must not have any relatives who have been victimized in the past. For them (and for their descendants), their suffering continues to haunt them. To call the Koreans' suffering at the hands of the Japanese a mere story belittles what they have gone through. What should it be called? A tragedy, perhaps. A human rights violation. But not just a mere story.

[cstaylor]

Maybe you wouldn't be so quick to dismiss their suffering as a "story" if any of those events happened to your aunt&uncle/grandparents/parents.

Look, I guess your definition of story doesn't mesh with mine:

Main Entry: 1sto&middot]1 archaic : HISTORY 1, 3[/b]
2 a : an account of incidents or events b : a statement regarding the facts pertinent to a situation in question c : ANECDOTE; especially : an amusing one
3 a : a fictional narrative shorter than a novel; specifically : SHORT STORY b : the intrigue or plot of a narrative or dramatic work
4 : a widely circulated rumor

So, your definition is there, but I was referring to the 1st and 2nd definitions.

Maybe what I should have said is that "the atrocities of the past should not have an impact on the children/grandchildren of the representative groups involved". Of course they have an effect-- why else do we have 30 year old Koreans bleating about "oppressors" when they were 25 years late to the last Japanese leaving the country?

[cstaylor]

Who is teaching them to hate Japanese?

off course is the adults who had suffered, from own family, loved ones,and we all get emotional,especially with our closed one.It is like those afghans teach the children to cheers after the 911 incident.

Tin- it wasn't Afghans who were cheering. That was Palestinians cheering. Afghans were cheering once the Taliban were sent packing out of Kabul.

[kamome]

CS, thanks for clarifying that. I thought you were using story as in definitions 3 and 4 (and 2c, "anecdote"). Ah, now that that's settled, what's the next controversy to sink our teeth into?

[cstaylor]

I can't think of a better definition than "story" for it... if I tell you about something that happened to me, it didn't happen to you, right? Therefore you can't claim to be a "victim" of the crime.

What's worse is that for these morons quoted in the NY Times, they don't even put names to the criminals; instead they indict an entire race for what happened to their parents and grandparents. That's perpetuating hate.

[kamome]

I can't think of a better definition than "story" for it... if I tell you about something that happened to me, it didn't happen to you, right? Therefore you can't claim to be a "victim" of the crime.

No, but if it happened to a relative of yours, then you are in effect a surrogate victim. And in the case of the Japanese invasion and annexation of Korea, the entire modern Korean population is a surrogate victim. Thus, for the Korean descendants of WWII victims, surrogate victimization means these things DID happen to them, although in a psychological sort of way.

Nevertheless, as we said before, Koreans should focus on healing old wounds and not perpetuating hate with comments like those in the NY Times article.

[cstaylor]

So, what you're saying is that you want people of Japanese heritage, regardless of their role (or lack thereof) to get down on their knees and beg for forgiveness from Koreans who only have a second-hand knowledge of these atrocities?

As for the textbook controversy, I think the Japanese people did what the government allegedly could not do: refuse the textbook on the grounds that it falsified history. Please name the schools that are actually using said textbook.

And speaking of textbooks...

[cstaylor]

sterotyping up to this day, not to mention sexual slavery of "hostesses"

That's not only Koreans, kid. They're like that with everyone, and with each other too.

The more and more I look at the economy, the more I'm sure that the 80's were a complete fluke. I get the feeling that this is where the economy should be for Japan (right below Cameroon on Moody's credit rating boards)

[kamome]

I think Alpha is doing a better job of saying what I was trying to say when I was focusing on the word "story".

Anyway, that NYTimes article about textbooks should have had the following headline: "Texas Conservatives, Motivated by Greed and Christian Fundamentalist Ideology, Want to Censor Textbooks and Brainwash Children; Publishers Fold Under the Pressure".

A similar article about the Japanese textbook controvery should be headlined, "Japanese Conservatives, Motivated by Denial and Ultranationist Ideology, Want to Censor Textbooks and Brainwash Children; Publishers and the Education Ministry Fold under the Pressure."

[cstaylor]

firstly, I`m not a kid, and I disaree with your blase attitude toward this issue, as it did`nt effect you directly or even the current generation of Koreans, japanese, we should just forget it? Thats how history repeats itself

History never repeats itself. There are common actions that happen in history, but a historical event does not repeat.

Do you really think that the fighting-age Japanese (ages 17-26), because they only have a passing knowledge of the war (and slightly skewed), are going to rally around their emperor and invade the mainland again? You should be more worried about amendments to the constitution instead of the textbooks.

You state that Koreans "only" have 2nd hand Knowledge..thats not enough for you? perhaps they must witness it directly??

Yes, for me to say, "That must have been horrible for you. Although no amount of money can erase those memories, I hope that Japan will apoligize to you personally". Koreans so young that they seem to forget that China prevented a reunification of North and South Korea? No, you don't deserve an apology. That's like me asking for an apology for British misdeeds in Ireland, or for American government misdeeds in Indian territory. The only connection you have to your parents and grandparents horrifying memories are: [1] you've heard them second-hand and [2] You are ethnically Korean. Neither of those constitutes a victim (I'm not a lawyer like Kamome, so the law may have a different opinion)

The point i made earlier was the current generation of japanese have little knowledge of this history and virtually refuse to talk about it

And most Americans have a very passing knowledge of the Indian wars, or the Mexican-American war... if they want to know more, they can read about it in college. I'm confused about why you think Korea has any say on how Japan educates its children. You can be upset, sure, that they're not learning "correct history". Like I said at the beginning of this thread, those who were victims of the original crimes should be compensated by the Japanese government, just as Japanese-Americans received money from the American government in the 1980's over their confinement during the early years of the war.

The fact that the Government would push for these revisions and they WERE approved speaks volumes of the attitude

Yes, the politicians are morons, so they should keep their filthy mits off of the constitution... one of the stupidest arguments I've heard is that it was "written by foreigners".... yet Showa Tenno thought enough of it to give it his endorsement.

Very few schools (i know of 1) use the textbook....now, but it was a big controversy, so what happens when the heat dies down?

It's up to the Japanese. There are enough concerned citizens (who have no real stake in international affairs... they're just regular people) that want their children to know the truth.

I never said that, but maybe recognition, compensation and education would have been better tha a "heartfelt regret" statement by a prime minister some 50 years later..this was forced to be a personal apology as there was severe outcry and he was`nt supported by his party...it wasnt an offical apology...there never has been one. the compensation to a handful of comfort women is less than an average salarymans wage

As was the compensation to the Japanese-American internment victims. How much is enough money to erase those memories? According to the Koreans quoted in the article I posted, winning the World Cup in Yokohama in front of the Japanese would be enough.

Compare that to germany, millions in compensation, the leader of the madness and many more bought to justice, shrines that memorize the victims not the aggressors...need i go on?

The leader was not brought to justice: he committed suicide in his bunker as the Russians were fast approaching Berlin. The others were tried and executed.

So what you're saying is that you think Japan should have received the same treatment as the Germans directly after the war... because the current Chancellor of Germany, Schroder, with no direct memories of the war:

Schroder has always appeared to be less interested in Germany's history than his predecessor Helmut Kohl, and less inclined to allow Germany's politics - in particular its attitude to Europe - to be defined by notions of historical responsibility. He has been widely criticised for an apparently dismissive attitude to Germany's past, particularly for opposing a memorial to the Holocaust in the former no man's land in the centre of the new Berlin.

Again, Schoder proves my point exactly. What responsibility do the children of the oppressors have to the children of the oppressed?

finally, sexual slavery is ok if all nationalities are included?

I never said it was okay, but you sure made it sound like it was Koreans only.

we can look down on....like cameroon

Let's see here... Japan is supposedly the second largest economy in the world, but Moody's just downgraded them for cash loans to that of a third-world country. From the World Fact Book about Cameroon:

Cameroon: Population 15,803,200

There are more people in Tokyo then all of Cameroon.

Cameroon: Literacy rate: 63%

Cameroon: GDP per-capita buying power: $1,700

What it sounds like to me is that you have a huge race chip on your shoulder. Lots of people do, including Kamome (although his is guilt instead of anger), but take a step back and think: "Did I choose to be Korean, or was it beyond my control?"... and realize that the children of your parent's and grandparent's oppressors are in the same boat.

[cstaylor]

I think Alpha is doing a better job of saying what I was trying to say when I was focusing on the word "story"

Not really. Both of you are missing the point. Read some of Sarte's existentialism, and you'll see what I'm getting at:

Existentialism maintains that in man, and in man alone, existence preceded essence.

This simply means that man first is, and only subsequently is this or that. In a word, man must create his own essence: it is in throwing himself into the world, suffering there, struggling there, that he gradually defines himself. And the definition always remains open ended: we cannot say what this man is before he dies, or what mankind is before it has disappeared.

To take pride in race, or to feel victimized by racial association with true victims, is absurd.