Alone in the group

[ramchop]

Japan was also near the top of the angst scale, with 38% saying they had a low sense of belonging.

[Taro Toporific]

Japan was also near the top of the angst scale, with 38% saying they had a low sense of belonging.

Something smells as fishy as last Friday's sashimi in this survey. How is it that the UK that apotheosizies Trainspotting angst and is the inventor of Punk is ranked with the least 'Angst' and 'Low sense of belonging'?

Angst rating/Low sense of belonging
Korea 41%
Poland 41%
Japan 38%
USA 25%
Germany 23%
New Zealand 21%
Ireland 19%
Sweden 18%
UK 17%

[AssKissinger]

inventor of Punk

Punk was invented in NYC by The Ramones whose first record predates the first Sex Pistols' release by a year.

[Taro Toporific]

inventor of Punk

Punk was invented in NYC by The Ramones whose first record predates the first Sex Pistols' release by a year.

Sure, ok, the great "Japanese" band The Ramones* did predate 'em. I guess angst is low in the UK 'cause everyone is whinging with their mates.


-------------
*Shonen Knife are the "Osaka Ramones"!... in late 1997. They played an all-Ramones show as the "Osaka Ramones" in 1998 in Japan... and Joey Ramone introduced them as the "Osaka Ramones" when they joined Joey & his band, the Independents - for a live jam session at the L.A. Troubadour on August 20, 1998. (5) nights later, Shonen Knife were joined onstage by Markey Ramone at the Bowery Ballroom in New York where he introduced the band, and jammed with them on the drums! They were the opening band for the Ramones in Japan at a show there in the '90s.

[Neo-Rio]

I was wondering about this yesterday actually. If "family ties" and contacts are so important for business over here.... how the hell do you figure a low sense of belonging into this?

Well, I've always sensed the business-like nature of Japans "belonging" to be phoney to say the least...

[Caustic Saint]

Angst rating/Low sense of belonging
Korea 41%
Poland 41%
Japan 38%
USA 25%
Germany 23%
New Zealand 21%
Ireland 19%
Sweden 18%
UK 17%

The Korea statistic doesn't surprise me at all. Ostracism is practically institutionalized over here. There' something called wangdda which is the ultimate in kids being cruel to each other.

In public schools here students are in the same group all day and go from class to class together. Different teachers for each subject, but the same pupils every period. If the "alphas" (for lack of a better term) in a class decide there's one kid they just don't like - or maybe even just for the hell of it - they declare him wangdda, which is essentially an outcast within a group. Nobody in that class will talk to the kid, or even acknowledge his existence in any other way, yet he's surrounded by the same people for 6-7 hours straight. And the kid sometimes won't tell his parents what's going on, because being wangdda automatically makes you some kind of a failure. No kid in Korea ever wants to tell his parents he's failed at something.

Teachers, parents and administrators all know this goes on, but do nothing to stop it. Sure, you can't force kids to be friends with each other, but to let students declare a classmate a "non-person" and say "nothing can be done about it" is sacrificing that kid to the system. Kids in a group feel more normal and accepted if there's somebody lower on the food chainn than they are.

The even worse part of this is that it's not undoable. Once a kid is wangdda he stays that way - sometimes even from one school to the next (elementary to middle or middle to high) if enough of the same kids wind up in the same class again.

At least in western public schools the scheduling rotates pupils through their classes, so if one class tried to do this, it'd be harder to spread it around to make in a constant in that kid's day.

I can't imagine what a hellish existence that would be for a kid. Knowing you'll never have friends at school, yet seeing the same faces all-day, every day - knowing their names, hearing their conversation - and being little more than a ghost to them. Some of the wangdda kids even get harassed outside of school. I know of one kid whose cell number got out and was passed around practically his entire school. Other kids would block their numbers from caller ID and prank him non-stop.

I've only ever had one student that I knew was wangdda in her public school (5th grade). I knew this becuase she was in my writing class with a classmate of hers from public school. (The only talking they did to each other in my class was to argue.) I was surprised to hear this, and to find out that other kids would tease her, becuase she was big for an 11 year-old. Not fat either. She was about 8" taller than most of the boys her age and pretty strong. She got into lots of fights at public school - 99% with boys - and won almost all of them. I guess they thought her being wangdda somehow made her inferior or weaker. I told the boy in my class he'd be stupid to fight her, as she'd probably kill him.

She was a bright kid, but very withdrawn. I describe her as the only Korean goth I've ever seen. She wrote pretty morose stuff, and some of it read better than the angsty poetry cranked out by moody college students back home. Even though it wasn't great poetry, I loved it because it was so totally non-Korean. (I'll dig up an example when I get home tonight and post it.)

I'm sure the whole "tradition" of wangdda is seen as some sort of necessary evil by the culture here, but how much evil has ever been proven to be necessary in the long run?

[AssKissinger]

Teachers, parents and administrators all know this goes on, but do nothing to stop it.

Well Korea and Japan got that in common. I work in a public JHS and the other day this 'cool' boy was openly teasing a disabled kid about his speech impediment in class in plain view of two JPN teachers and myself. It's not supposed to be my job to discipline the kids but the JPN teachers just ignore this stuff. To tell the truth, I'm not totally sure how it's handled if at all. But it certainly is the case that this kind of bullying isn't stopped at the time. Since the other teachers did nothing I stepped-up and dealt with the situation. Basically, I scared the shit out of the 'cool' kid and humilated him in front of his peers. Picking on a kid because of his handicap is no go in AssKing Sensei's class. I'll physically remove a kid who does it. I don't give a fuck what their policies are. I'll lose my job before I sit back and ignore it. From teaching kids I've learned that the attitudes of the teachers do matter and do influence the children. They are less likely to do something if the teachers clearly express to them it is wrong. Not addressing a problem like the one Caustic is talking about is absolutely negligent. It's laziness and simply lacking the courage to confront a difficult situation. Letting that kind of shit go unchallenged makes them deliquent of their duties and failures as teachers. The real deal is the stronger kids often have more influential parents and the teachers fear for their jobs if they alienate these parents. Believe me, I've seen this first hand. It's pathetic how cowardly people are when their jobs are on the line.

[Big Booger]

Teachers, parents and administrators all know this goes on, but do nothing to stop it.

Well Korea and Japan got that in common. I work in a public JHS and the other day this 'cool' boy was openly teasing a disabled kid about his speech impediment in class in plain view of two JPN teachers and myself. It's not supposed to be my job to discipline the kids but the JPN teachers just ignore this stuff. To tell the truth, I'm not totally sure how it's handled if at all. But it certainly is the case that this kind of bullying isn't stopped at the time. Since the other teachers did nothing I stepped-up and dealt with the situation. Basically, I scared the shit out of the 'cool' kid and humilated him in front of his peers. Picking on a kid because of his handicap is no go in AssKing Sensei's class. I'll physically remove a kid who does it. I don't give a fuck what their policies are. I'll lose my job before I sit back and ignore it. From teaching kids I've learned that the attitudes of the teachers do matter and do influence the children. They are less likely to do something if the teachers clearly express to them it is wrong. Not addressing a problem like the one Caustic is talking about is absolutely negligent. It's laziness and simply lacking the courage to confront a difficult situation. Letting that kind of shit go unchallenged makes them deliquent of their duties and failures as teachers. The real deal is the stronger kids often have more influential parents and the teachers fear for their jobs if they alienate these parents. Believe me, I've seen this first hand. It's pathetic how cowardly people are when their jobs are on the line.

He called himself AssKing! Nice

I think the best medicine is group harmony. We should all try to preserve the group for the benefit of society....


Damn I'm becoming Japanese LMAO

[AssKissinger]

I think the best medicine is group harmony. We should all try to preserve the group for the benefit of society....

Can you explain what you mean by that and give an example of how it could be applied to deal with the problem of bullying. Thanks in advance for your insightful Boogerisms. And Caustic, I'm looking forward to reading that poetry.

[Caustic Saint]

Here's the stuff I mentioned above.

Today it is very cold.
And I want snowing.
And Not snowing.
And I think
"I will make My grave"
And I'm not death.

Not going to make her a poet laureate for sure, but (as I said earlier) I love it for being so completely not what I expected from a 5th grader here. Hell, this is not the kind of stuff that should be running through an 11 year-old in any country.

[AssKissinger]

Not going to make her a poet laureate

For an 11-year-old in a second language that's an outstanding poem, IMHO.

[Big Booger]

I was just jacking off in the post about the group harmony wing wang..

The way I would have handled the bullying would be different from say the way you did it. First I would have moved the offending student and sat him between two girls. Next I would have moved the handicapped student next to more supporting students if possible.

The moves needn't be that instant either.

Third I would have talked to his homeroom teacher or the teacher in the class.

And fourth, I would have asked both students to stay after class and had a discussion in semi-privacy. BUt I would have asked in front of the class for that fear factor effect.. tends to work.


But that all depends on a lot of factors. Above all I would keep my composure and let students know that despite being provoked I can still act civilized.

I agree making fun of them works well, but at what cost? You might have just made a mortal enemy for life. that may not mean much, but maybe just maybe the kid making fun of the handicapped student is reaching out because of some inadequacy or something worse like abuse, either physical or mental. Or he could be just a little peckerhead learning to mature.. often after years of immaturity.

I am glad though that you did what you thought was correct. That is to be commended. It is way better than sitting around with your thumb up your ass like so many J-teachers.

But can you tell me are you the same Assking who posted over at LetsJapan that you smack kids in the face for grabbing your testicles and giving you the almighty kancho? Say it ain't so.

[cstaylor]

That's why I could never be a teacher. You guys must put up with a lot of garbage... frankly, I wouldn't want to involve myself in other people's problems (kids reflect the stupidity from the home like a mirror).

[AssKissinger]

As I stated on Let's Japan I will hit any living creature of any size and any age that intentionally goes for my nuts in an unpleasant way.

[Taro Toporific]

Today it is very cold. / And I want snowing. / And Not snowing. / And I think / "I will make My grave" / And I'm not death.

precocious k-Goth Girl: Today it is very cold.
Esme: Obviously a path to nowhere. What is meaningful to thee?

precocious k-Goth Girl: And I want snowing.
Esme : But a grimace is so enigmatic, how am I to read your grimaces?

precocious k-Goth Girl: And I want NOT snowing.
Esme : If there were such a thing as despair, I would wear it brightly.

precocious k-Goth Girl: And I think
Esme : Por que?

precocious k-Goth Girl: "I will make My grave"
Esme : Spam is the wonder food.

precocious k-Goth Girl: And I'm not death.
Esme : I do love a secret....


--------back to the semi-surrealer world of Japan Inc---------

The right to self-defense for the abused student {a teacher or any assaulted adult} is very limited in Japan. Schools and J-cops take the view that "it takes two to tango" and will almost always punish both parties in an altercation. Bullies use this to great advantage in Japan.

[Caustic Saint]

What's the Esme link (http://www.madsci.org/cgi-bin/cgiwrap/~lynn/jardin/) supposed to be? All I get is this:


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