Questions about eletric power in Japan

[anslab]

Hi guys,

first, I apologize if this is the wrong sub-forum. Please move where appropriate if needed.
I will move to japan this fall, and I will bring some electrical appliances with me that are rated only for 240V. So I have a couple questions about the japanese electric system :

1) People from a country where electric power is 240V : If you need some power transformer for some of your appliances, can you point me in the direction of a specific brand or model I can use without risks. Most of the power transformer I find here are rated for inputs between 110 and 240, and seems like they are designed to convert from the North American system. I'm wondering if they can handle safely 100V as it seems to be standard in japan.

2) People from a country where electric power is 110-120 V : can you use safely a 110V-rated appliance on the japanese electrical system (besides the obvious cell phone, laptop and everything with an integrated transformer).

Thanks.

[Coligny]

1: 110v rated appliance works with jap 100v because of the needed tolerance range (usually they are good from 90-100v to 120-130v)

2: try to avoid 110->220v up converter, at 100v they will give you only 200v, and in some crappy homes you can be as low as 90v (been there done that) which will be upconverted to 180-200v max... Not a good working solution.

The best is to wait to be here and dwell the small shops in akihabara for all copper wound heavy as hell no brand locally made converters. If your next house only have 100v then go for the 100->240v models if you have also 200v plugs (kitchen for example) go for the 200->240v models.

In all case, be warned that converters only work on the voltage. They can't alter the frequency. So south of Tokyo you will be at 60 hz, North you will be at 50 hz... Or in the dark if you live near fukushima...

[matsuki]

The frequency will fuck up anything with an internal clock. It might help to know what appliances you're bringing as well. For example, as Coligny said, a NA appliance will work here without an adapter but I wouldn't recommend doing that with something like a hairdryer or microwave.

[wagyl]

I sincerely hope that people don't transport microwaves, or even hair dryers internationally. I suppose some people do. Use your travel as a great excuse to buy new.

[Taro Toporific]

The frequency will fuck up anything with an internal clock. It might help to know what appliances you're bringing as well. For example, as Coligny said, a NA appliance will work here without an adapter but I wouldn't recommend doing that with something like a hairdryer or microwave.

The 50hz screws up everything.

If you are from Europe were hideous 50hz is the norm, you will have half the problem solved.

For an American like me, moving from 60hz to shitty Japanese 50hz makes everything is 16.66% cooler/slower/crappier.

Homes and apartments, upscale or not, do not have ovens in Japan, but a 240-120V foreign oven will cook too coolly at Japanese 100V/50hz.

Side note: My euro-trash Phillips electric shavers run 16% slower even though Phillips claims they have a 100-240V, 50/60 Hz rating. Even simple things like my grandma's super-cool, 1950s stainless steel toaster takes almost a full minute longer to complete a toasting cycle.

Another nuisance is that Japan mostly uses ungrounded two-prong sockets, but most foreign appliances want grounded three-pin plugs. Sure, you can buy cheap 3-to-2 prong adapters, but you still end up with ungrounded appliances in dangerously wired, low-tech Japan. Japan has not "invented" ground-fault breakers (except for their squirting toilets), so using ungrounded foreign appliances with 3-to-2 prong adapters is as retarded as Japan's worst-in-the-developed-world construction quality.

In Japan, you can expect to trip an electrical breaker several times a month. Even the most expensive dwellings here always lack amperage and rooms never have many outlets. Japanese love their tanged masses of takoashi haisen* extention cords and wall outlet expanders. *("octopus legs" electrical cords)

tako-ashi.jpeg

At least your TV set will not get the national broadcast** propaganda channels 1-to-3 so when the NHK extortionist comes to the door you can him to get fucked and honestly claim you don't have a TV that revieves NHK.

**Broadcast over the airwaves. Your
upscale home or condo most likely will have
cable/satellite connections that will
receive NHK on your foreign TV].
(As far as I am concerned,
NHK has only one use:
prompt Earthquake info.

[Coligny]

The frequency will fuck up anything with an internal clock. It might help to know what appliances you're bringing as well. For example, as Coligny said, a NA appliance will work here without an adapter but I wouldn't recommend doing that with something like a hairdryer or microwave.

Most modern devices are 50/60hz... Except for cheap timer electric switches I haven't seen a device with timekeeping based on the grid frequency for decades... But the fact that they can operated at both frequency don't mean they are as efficient at both frequency...
Like for Taro's shaver based rant... most 50/60hz devices have different power output/speed listed for both frequency. Even desk fans, and for electric heaters you clearly see that it's gunna be colder at 50hz...

[matsuki]

At what point do you decide to go off grid with solar/wind/hamster at 110v/60hz??

[Taro Toporific]

At what point do you decide to go off grid with solar/wind/hamster at 110v/60hz??

When/if I move to the Rice Ranch in Shikoku, I will go with 12 V Solar Panels and ship over biggest 1960s Airstream (12 Volt) I can find. I already have my two hand-wired, 1sqm panels that I use to trickle-charge my electo-conversion vehicle projects.


For the past 30 years, hot water on the farm has been supplied by Israeli style heaters (direct gravity feed, passive solar water heaters). Our beer cooler, is a 2m deep spring house (9°C), which up until 1980 was the only "refrigerator" the farm had.

Bottom line: I could pull the plug today, if I wanted to.

[Coligny]

Side note: My euro-trash Phillips electric shavers run 16% slower even though Phillips claims they have a 100-240V, 50/60 Hz rating. Even simple things like my grandma's super-cool, 1950s stainless steel toaster takes almost a full minute longer to complete a toasting cycle.

Sidenote/i'm super slow to the game... but...

Why do you need a shaver for ?

//not sure I'm comfortable with any potential answer to this question...
///yup... I'm an asshole too... nuthin' be a changin' dere'
///so aboot that "manscaping" private subforum ?...

[matsuki]

At what point do you decide to go off grid with solar/wind/hamster at 110v/60hz??

When/if I move to the Rice Ranch in Shikoku, I will go with 12 V Solar Panels and ship over biggest 1960s Airstream (12 Volt) I can find. I already have my two hand-wired, 1sqm panels that I use to trickle-charge my electo-conversion vehicle projects.


For the past 30 years, hot water on the farm has been supplied by Israeli style heaters (direct gravity feed, passive solar water heaters). Our beer cooler, is a 2m deep spring house (9°C), which up until 1980 was the only "refrigerator" the farm had.

Bottom line: I could pull the plug today, if I wanted to.

I say do eeeeet....but why stick to 12v?

I don't know of any homes here efficient enough to sell power back to the local monopoly but at the prices it goes for here, something like a solar/wind farm might actually be profitable

[Coligny]

Low power appliance for rv/camping are all 12v and plentifull to buy.

You should really start reading post zombie apocalypse survival and preparation books.

[GomiGirl]

At what point do you decide to go off grid with solar/wind/hamster at 110v/60hz??

When/if I move to the Rice Ranch in Shikoku, I will go with 12 V Solar Panels and ship over biggest 1960s Airstream (12 Volt) I can find. I already have my two hand-wired, 1sqm panels that I use to trickle-charge my electo-conversion vehicle projects.


For the past 30 years, hot water on the farm has been supplied by Israeli style heaters (direct gravity feed, passive solar water heaters). Our beer cooler, is a 2m deep spring house (9°C), which up until 1980 was the only "refrigerator" the farm had.

Bottom line: I could pull the plug today, if I wanted to.

I say do eeeeet....but why stick to 12v?

I don't know of any homes here efficient enough to sell power back to the local monopoly but at the prices it goes for here, something like a solar/wind farm might actually be profitable

My parents at the Gold Coast have solar panels and they sell back to the grid at a profit - a small profit but combine that with zero power bills, it is awesome.

[matsuki]

Low power appliance for rv/camping are all 12v and plentifull to buy.

You should really start reading post zombie apocalypse survival and preparation books.

Yeah, and you can use auto batteries to store excess....but why bother if you can generate 100v 60hz (or 110v for that matter on your own and not have to buy 12v everything?

(though Taro won't have to pay property taxes on his Air Stream so there's an idea )

I don't know of any homes here efficient enough to sell power back to the local monopoly but at the prices it goes for here, something like a solar/wind farm might actually be profitable

My parents at the Gold Coast have solar panels and they sell back to the grid at a profit - a small profit but combine that with zero power bills, it is awesome.

My rents just installed 16 of em on their roof and knocked their powerbill in half. They're considering adding 16 more but figuring out how to mount them without becoming an eyesore has become an issue. (it wouldn't be if they hadn't gone with the trend of shitty faux wood gazebos made from super thin aluminum) Soooo, if you've got the room, I can't see this being a bad thing here unless the local monopoly is able to lowball you for the power they buy from you. (or charge you some BS connection fees)

[Coligny]

Low power appliance for rv/camping are all 12v and plentifull to buy.

You should really start reading post zombie apocalypse survival and preparation books.

Yeah, and you can use auto batteries to store excess....but why bother if you can generate 100v 60hz (or 110v for that matter on your own and not have to buy 12v everything?

(though Taro won't have to pay property taxes on his Air Stream so there's an idea )

If he put this on the airstream it make more sense to standardize on 12 v so he can hit the road with no trouble with few 12v highcapacity deep discharge batteries rather than at least 8 for 100v plus a DC to ac inverter. Also, led lights for rvs are plentifull and all 12v...nusually, anything to be powered by battery banks try to be lower than 48v (telecom specs).

Also, shitload of modern day to day stuff are either 12vdc or 5 vdc and require 100->12v adapters. All desk computers do for a start... Medium and small lcd tv, ipod, pad, phones are 5v. And on and on...

[matsuki]

Low power appliance for rv/camping are all 12v and plentifull to buy.

You should really start reading post zombie apocalypse survival and preparation books.

Yeah, and you can use auto batteries to store excess....but why bother if you can generate 100v 60hz (or 110v for that matter on your own and not have to buy 12v everything?

(though Taro won't have to pay property taxes on his Air Stream so there's an idea )

If he put this on the airstream it make more sense to standardize on 12 v so he can hit the road with no trouble with few 12v highcapacity deep discharge batteries rather than at least 8 for 100v plus a DC to ac inverter. Also, led lights for rvs are plentifull and all 12v...nusually, anything to be powered by battery banks try to be lower than 48v (telecom specs).

Also, shitload of modern day to day stuff are either 12vdc or 5 vdc and require 100->12v adapters. All desk computers do for a start... Medium and small lcd tv, ipod, pad, phones are 5v. And on and on...

Yeah, I can see it making sense for Taro's situation...but are you really saying you'd wire your own home 12v?

[Coligny]

Totally, one circuit for normal operation in 110v and a secondary for all emergency lights. Have you checked the power of the 3 w t10 marker led lights for cars ? Enought to light a 8 mat room... At worse can be directly powered with the car without worrying on converter efficiency loss or any old 12v batt.

[Russell]

Hmm, I am thinking to make myself a 12 V system powered by solar energy. The batteries, though, need to be deep cycle batteries, NOT car batteries.

What's the difference?

Car batteries are optimized to deliver much power in a short time (for starting), and to this end their plates are thin. They do not respond well to being discharged substantially: it will damage them.

Deep cycle batteries are the opposite. They deliver power at a more constant rate and can be discharged pretty much, because their plates are thick. Where can you get deep cycle batteries? The cheapest are usually the batteries for golf carts, but Japan being Japan, I suspect that golf cart batteries may be pretty expensive here due to golf being considered a rich man's sport. Anyway, you read it here: use deep cycle batteries.

[Yokohammer]

Where can you get deep cycle batteries? The cheapest are usually the batteries for golf carts, but Japan being Japan, I suspect that golf cart batteries may be pretty expensive here due to golf being considered a rich man's sport. Anyway, you read it here: use deep cycle batteries.

Not really all that expensive.

A little over JPY 12,000 at that large online store:

810TIXmV+6L._AA1500_.jpg

[Coligny]

Nope, do a check on amazon.co.jp deep cycle/marine batteries are not that much expensive if compared to good car batteries (sure if you compare to the yuasa turds fitted on Nissans it's much more... but you can't find worse on the market even if you try really hard)
Plus they are often discounted up to 50% AND when they are expensive, it's monsters that don't fit on an automotive form factor and can easily power an inverter providing 2000W/h at 100v, in other word... overkill...

[Coligny]

Where can you get deep cycle batteries? The cheapest are usually the batteries for golf carts, but Japan being Japan, I suspect that golf cart batteries may be pretty expensive here due to golf being considered a rich man's sport. Anyway, you read it here: use deep cycle batteries.

Not really all that expensive.

A little over JPY 12,000 at that large online store:

810TIXmV+6L._AA1500_.jpg

THIS MODEL from yokohammer is HALF the price of the Bosch battery I had to put in my Nissan to alleviate the troublesome (shitfest) alternator and helped with a solar panel trickle charger behind the windscreen (FUCK YOU HITACHI)

[Russell]

Looks good.

Since no water needs to be added, they are likely closed types, isn't it?

[Yokohammer]

I'm quite happy with the cost/performance of ACDelco batteries.

I have one in the Bimmer and it has been totally reliable thus far ... which is impressive because that car often only gets driven about once a week.

[Yokohammer]

Looks good.

Since no water needs to be added, they are likely closed types, isn't it?

Like it says on the label: "Maintenance Free".

[Coligny]

I'm quite happy with the cost/performance of ACDelco batteries.

I have one in the Bimmer and it has been totally reliable thus far ... which is impressive because that car often only gets driven about once a week.

yeah, but germans tend to make their cars with quality parts... They realized that a 5euro economy is lost on the warranty repair cost and sinking brand loyalty. Mercobenz have not yet recovered from their quality control cost cutting of the last 90 early 2000 despite being back on the top reliability wise. (Valeo and bosch tend to make good parts anyway)

[matsuki]

Totally, one circuit for normal operation in 110v and a secondary for all emergency lights. Have you checked the power of the 3 w t10 marker led lights for cars ? Enought to light a 8 mat room... At worse can be directly powered with the car without worrying on converter efficiency loss or any old 12v batt.

lkqFXi8.gif

Sooooo for backup yes, for a total power solution, no?



Thought these were worth posting:

japan-electric-map.grid-6x2[1].jpg

kn-1500-50hz60hz[1].gif

[Coligny]

For total power no, because of some appliance that are not available for RV/travel/12v like all my machine tools, woodworking tools/ heating washing machine but for a normal person who can live without a lathe or a milling machine the problem would be inexistant...

[wagyl]

japan-electric-map.grid-6x2[1].jpg

Did Gunma and Yamanashi come under Chubu Denryoku's wing?

The 50 Hz/60 Hz border is not strictly accurate either.

[Coligny]

Dood, have you seen the precision of them maps ? not exactly the level required to plan an airstrike either...
Plus, be carefull, they are not at the same scale neither from the same viewpoint, it helps really well getting confused...

[matsuki]

japan-electric-map.grid-6x2[1].jpg

Did Gunma and Yamanashi come under Chubu Denryoku's wing?

The 50 Hz/60 Hz border is not strictly accurate either.

Hey now, if you're expecting accuracy you haven't seen too many Japanese maps

[matsuki]

For total power no, because of some appliance that are not available for RV/travel/12v like all my machine tools, woodworking tools/ heating washing machine but for a normal person who can live without a lathe or a killing machine the problem would be inexistant...

Heating washing machine? They do have 12v washers and driers for RVs....probably bigger than most Japanese washers and dryers to begin with. If you want to wash with heated water, it's more economical and makes more sense to just run a hot water line to your washing machine. (so you're using gas to heat the water)

Powertools on the other hand...yeah, gonna more than 12v!